Difficulties on deciding which party to elect? Here's the "Wahl-o-Mat" for you

katwalk

Forum Addict
Joined
Apr 1, 2008
Messages
10,342
Car(s)
2003 VW Beetle, 2017 Abarth Fiat 500c
I do not know enough about germany for this I think.

Interesting in no part of my schooling was it mentioned germany still had military. They left me under the impression that was taken away after WWII. :blink: PUBLIC EDUCATION FTL
 

DarkReaper

Well-Known Member
Joined
Dec 24, 2005
Messages
1,278
Location
Germany
Car(s)
BMW635CSI'86.BMW850CI'96 MotoGuzzi California EV
They did under the the Morgenthau plan: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Morgenthau_Plan

In it's most extreme version the morgenthau plan intended to remove all industrial and scientific capabilities and leave Germany as a purely agrarian state. I think they had the something similar planned for japan.

Thankfully growing hostilities between soviet russia and the western powers meant that germany was worth more as a military ally, than as a 600km no-mans-land.
 

jetsetter

Forum Addict
Joined
Dec 11, 2005
Messages
7,257
Location
Seren?sima Rep?blica de California
Car(s)
1997 BMW 528i
I do not know enough about germany for this I think.

Interesting in no part of my schooling was it mentioned germany still had military. They left me under the impression that was taken away after WWII. :blink: PUBLIC EDUCATION FTL
That is more of a common sense kind of thing. It is not the public education that is at fault.
 

Dogbert

Helsinki Smash Rod
Joined
Nov 15, 2008
Messages
6,458
Location
N38? 43', W90? 22'
Car(s)
Roger Dean's Rocks
That is more of a common sense kind of thing. It is not the public education that is at fault.
Don't be an ass. I distinctly remember Potsdam from my high school education, but my basic history classes never taught me about the reformation of the East and West German armies afterwards, or the unification of said armies after the wall came down; a consequence of the "let's focus on one single event at a given time" philosophy of history classes nowadays.
 
Last edited:

katwalk

Forum Addict
Joined
Apr 1, 2008
Messages
10,342
Car(s)
2003 VW Beetle, 2017 Abarth Fiat 500c
Yeah, they covered the revolutionary war at least 5 times in my school career, but smushed all of everything after 1800 into one semester. They basically stopped at "then we won the war the end".
 

argatoga

Can't Start His Wank
Joined
Oct 4, 2005
Messages
18,139
Location
Seattle
Car(s)
'13 Moto Guzzi V7, '08 Pontiac Solstice GXP
High School is pretty lame. Real higher level education doesn't begin until college.
 

Elvis313

Well-Known Member
Joined
Jul 13, 2008
Messages
976
Location
Germany
Car(s)
2013 Volvo V60 D6
-CDU
-FDP
-Piraten

pretty much what I already thought. Anyway, I'm going to vote Piraten since CDU/FDP don't really need me to win.

Fun fact: the green party ranked worse than the pensioner party and the womens party


Edit: on the "Rebuild the wall, please" discussion. Normally I'd agree but I went to Oschersleben yesterday and after surviving the adventurous journey through the desert of east germany I had a great day.
 
Last edited:

AiR

Forum Addict
Joined
Dec 19, 2005
Messages
11,985
Location
Suecia
Car(s)
Bulgogi Knedliky 1.6 GDI (Hyundai i30)
First observation: Hey, pirates! Same logo as our pirates! Hehe.

I mostly agree with what klankymen said in his very long post back a few pages, but I fell in the same trap as MacGuffin. I clicked neutral too many times and the test doesnt like that.



I'm going to redo the test, I refuse to believe I'm a Die Linke and NDP-hybrid :lol:

[test 2]
By not clicking neutral on anything (which in itself is obviously wrong, I don't even know what a co-payment for a doctor is, nor do I know what the haupt/real/gymnasium question really asks of me) I got

1. Piraten
2. Die Linke
4. Gr?ne
4. NPD :lol:
5. FDP

What do the haupt/real/gymnasium question ask of me? My mum went to the Real-school, I went to the Gymnasium. Same building, same school, different name. Does Germany have both of these at once? What does the education reform mean? And the question of co-paying the doctor, does it ask me if I want to pay a portion of the doctors fee myself, or does it ask if I want the state to pay that fee? SPD disagrees with my opinion in both of these matters but I really do not understand the questions.
 
Last edited:

klankymen

BLT Master
Joined
Jun 3, 2008
Messages
3,300
Location
M?nchen, K?nigreich Bayern
Car(s)
plastic Japanese iPod dock on wheels
I mostly agree with what klankymen said in his very long post back a few pages,
Quite unusual that you would get die Linke if you even partially agree with me, seeing as Die Linke is basically the party I am farthest away from, by a wide margin.

In fact, the only things I agree with them on are laughable ideas such as leaving the EU or reinstating the Deutschmark, 2 semi-serious topics, which are pulling out of Afghanistan & continuing trade with human rights violators (this one actually surprises me, I would have thought the leftists would want to end trade).

The only serious issue the Linke got right is that Christian values should not influence our politics.

Everything else they say is bullshit to the highest degree in my view. Because of this I find your result quite unusual if you say you agree with me on several points.

Oh, and I'm pretty sure the neutrals don't make a huge difference, even with 8 (!) neutral votes, the FPD, CSU, BayernPartei & Pirates are still ahead of the lefitsts by a factor of more than 2. (Though granted, my libertarian views far exceed those predominant here in Germany, and would probably be considered extremist or possibly even slightly anarchistic here)

What do the haupt/real/gymnasium question ask of me? My mum went to the Real-school, I went to the Gymnasium. Same building, same school, different name. Does Germany have both of these at once? What does the education reform mean? And the question of co-paying the doctor, does it ask me if I want to pay a portion of the doctors fee myself, or does it ask if I want the state to pay that fee? SPD disagrees with my opinion in both of these matters but I really do not understand the questions.
As for the school thing, real-schule, gynasium & hauptschule are 3 different buildings in Germany.
Everybody goes to the first 4 grades together, and then if your average is 2.33 or better (on a scale from 6 worst to 1 best) you can go to gymnasium if you want - if not you have to go to realschule or hauptschule. Hauptschule is done after 8th grade, realschule done after 10th grade, and Gymnasium is done after 13th grade. You basically (there are a few minor alternatives) have to have graduated Gymnasium to be able to go to University.

The question here is whether you want to make one school that all kids go to, regardless of how stupid/lazy or talented/diligent they are.

And as for the co-payment, as it is if you visit the doctors you have to pay 10? personally every quarter that you visit the doctor (but only once, so if you go to the doctors in january once, february 3 times, and march once, you still only pay 10?).

I really don't see it making a huge difference - the money goes from the people, to the doctors either way, and the only thing this changes is that one person pays one or two euros more than he would without the system, or one or two euros less. I don't really think it's a huge deal, although it does help people like me who aren't sick often (cause I don't pay the 10?).

EDIT: reading slightly more, the whole copayment thing seems to be a bloated convoluted system for collecting what is basically pocket change (0-40? per year) from the people, and the money could just as well be collected via the normal health insurance fees.


EDIT2: Also, another interesting conclusion from looking at the answers from each party more closely. The ONLY thing I disagree with the FDP on is that I want out of Afghanistan and they don't. I think my choice would be very clear if I were allowed to vote (not like I wouldn't have voted them beforehand anyways)
 
Last edited:

foreverer

Active Member
Joined
Aug 8, 2008
Messages
164
Location
.ee

results second time. quite different :lol: also put quite a few neutrals in.
also npd fifth is a bit too close
 

AiR

Forum Addict
Joined
Dec 19, 2005
Messages
11,985
Location
Suecia
Car(s)
Bulgogi Knedliky 1.6 GDI (Hyundai i30)
[added]
I've reviewed your answers now Klanky and where our differences lie are:
Corporate taxes (which you want to lower), job protection, baf?g (I think yes), ecological farming (it costs more so it should recieve more aid, if we're going to aid farmers, could as well aid the ones that do it properly), DB (we privatized our rail, it's just meant more delays, higher costs and generally shitty service), GMO food (I don't like it), pensions (they've worked hard all their lives and their pensions are not that high to begin with), school system and municipial elections (I think you should be able to influence your local politics). Apparently we disagree on more things than I remembered but the rest of what you wrote I agree with fully! :)
[/added]

As for the school thing, real-schule, gynasium & hauptschule are 3 different buildings in Germany.
Everybody goes to the first 4 grades together, and then if your average is 2.33 or better (on a scale from 6 worst to 1 best) you can go to gymnasium if you want - if not you have to go to realschule or hauptschule. Hauptschule is done after 8th grade, realschule done after 10th grade, and Gymnasium is done after 13th grade. You basically (there are a few minor alternatives) have to have graduated Gymnasium to be able to go to University.

The question here is whether you want to make one school that all kids go to, regardless of how stupid/lazy or talented/diligent they are.

And as for the co-payment, as it is if you visit the doctors you have to pay 10? personally every quarter that you visit the doctor (but only once, so if you go to the doctors in january once, february 3 times, and march once, you still only pay 10?).
Thanks for the explanation. The school reform sounds like what our politicians did in the 70-80's. Up here we have Grundskola->Gymnasium->Universitet.
Doctor thing also sounds fair, so that's two green checkmarks where there before were red X's. Also changed my mind regarding Afghanistan, even if it's tempting to click "withdraw immediately" after the disaster caused by the german ISAF command last week, it wouldnt work.

My new and final test (with neutral answers) looks like this :)

 
Last edited:

MacGuffin

Forum Addict
DONOR
Joined
Mar 29, 2008
Messages
8,294
Location
Wilhelmshaven, Germany
Car(s)
'17 Ford Mustang GT Fastback
Yeah, they covered the revolutionary war at least 5 times in my school career, but smushed all of everything after 1800 into one semester. They basically stopped at "then we won the war the end".
Either you never watch the news on TV or read any newspapers (which is bad), or the news on your TV and your newspapers do not cover any foreign stuff at all (which is even worse).

You should start reading some international news sites. If you are interested in German points of view, the number one address is certainly http://www.spiegel.de/international/

Blaming the school for a lack of education might make sense until a certain age. But after that it is completely up to you, how much you learn and know about the world ;)
 
Last edited:

katwalk

Forum Addict
Joined
Apr 1, 2008
Messages
10,342
Car(s)
2003 VW Beetle, 2017 Abarth Fiat 500c
or the news on your TV and your newspapers do not cover any foreign stuff at all (which is even worse).
The only stuff they cover is wars and terrorism, so basically since we are not at war with Germany we do not hear about it.
Actually basically I only hear about things if they are stupid. I am sorry but your army is not stupid enough to make any news that I come across :lol:
 

DanRoM

Forum Addict
Joined
Feb 27, 2009
Messages
8,479
Location
Ruhr Area, Germany
Car(s)
MX-5 ND, Tracer 900 GT & two bikes
The only stuff they cover is wars and terrorism, so basically since we are not at war with Germany we do not hear about it.
Well, German troops do fight on US side in Afghanistan... oh how could I forget, we are not "at war" there, according to German politicians. :rolleyes:
 

shad_68

DOOD looks like a lady
Joined
Nov 23, 2008
Messages
3,146
Location
Dortmund
Car(s)
FiST in mah butt
^ I can't help but feel reminded of that video where a German Navy officer wants to show off by pulling a crazy move with his ship... and in the process ends up ramming another boat at speed. :lol:

edit/
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ib43gpKTxjs[/youtube]

Sorry for OT-ness.
 
Last edited:

klankymen

BLT Master
Joined
Jun 3, 2008
Messages
3,300
Location
M?nchen, K?nigreich Bayern
Car(s)
plastic Japanese iPod dock on wheels
I've reviewed your answers now Klanky and where our differences lie are:
If you don't mind I'd like to address a few of these points.

Corporate taxes (which you want to lower)
By raising corporate taxes you are in fact decreasing revenue for the nation. Why would you want to on one hand punish the corporations that do stay in the country, and at the same time push the corporations who can't afford it out of the country, thus losing money.

job protection
There would still be a basic right to not being randomly fired even if this were to be changed, but as it is there are far too many hoops to jump through to fire someone. It's not like anybody could do what they want if this were changed.

baf?g (I think yes)
Well, I voted neutral on this right? I was thinking more about it, and I think the only effective way to solve this is by saying yes. Ideally I'd like people who don't need it to not get it, but if you'd have to check every single case as to whether or not they are on a good foot with their parents, and can convince them to pay for their studies, that would be far to much bureaucracy, which is something I'd like to avoid. So I think I'd effectively also lean to yes on this one.

ecological farming (it costs more so it should recieve more aid, if we're going to aid farmers, could as well aid the ones that do it properly)
While I'm all in favor of ecological shit, I think the wrong way to do it is to just pay people who are constantly running at a loss to continue going like that. It encourages laziness if people can be unprofitable and bailed out.

That's not a mentality that should be encouraged. Instead you should spend the money on improving the whole process of ecological farming. Along the lines of "build a man a fire, he'll be warm for a day, teach a man to make a fire once, he'll be warm the rest of his life".

You know what I mean? Whenever possible one-time payments should be preferred to a continuous non-ending stream of payments.

DB (we privatized our rail, it's just meant more delays, higher costs and generally shitty service)
The DB already has shitty service, high costs, and lot's of delays. If it's gonna suck, I want it to suck at a cost to itself, and not a cost to the taxpayer.

BTW, here's some quick arithmetic. My mother's car was bought at a cost of about 15 grand, and you can probably figure a depreciation of 1 grand each year for the first 10 years (on average). Add to this a yearly service costing about 200, and 700 euros to insure it in my name (it's a lot cheaper in my mother's name, but I'm talking worst case here, a 20 year old guy), and 50 euros in tax per year. 12000km * 5.3l/100km = 636l, times 1,35?m = ~850?. Sum total is 2800? a year, for 12000km. That makes about 23,50 per 100km.

The trip to Munich from my parents' house is 50km each way, so ?23,50 for the round trip. The cheapest train to munich costs ?12,50 each way, so ?25 round trip.

This is just an example of one common trip I make, with different trips you may sometimes come out slightly cheaper, or break even, but you are definitely going to be in this ballpark.

What I'm saying is that if it's already cheaper to drive your car alone (before you even think about carpooling), then there's not much reason to take the train. Not to mention the unfriendly employees, the random plebs you wind up on the train with, the fact that it takes nearly twice as long as the car, and the irregular running times. The only time I'd take a train is when I'm drinking and can't drive. But wait, the last train runs at 11pm. So I'm gonna need to take a taxi home anyways. No, I don't want to be financing this fail with my taxes.

Note: this applies to the nation railway system, the DB. The MVG (Munich Transport Company), who runs the subways, trams & buses. They run regularly, and at nighttime, and offer a good alternative to driving and parking your car in the congestion that is the most densely populated city of Germany. They are municipally owned, and work rather well, although local transport systems have been shown to work well under private ownership as well.

GMO food (I don't like it)
GMO food is actually going to be more ecological and healthier for you, by reducing the amount of pesticides/herbicides that you wind up eating, and that wind up sinking into the ground water. "I don't like it" doesn't tell me what your problem with it, but when a technology does no damage, and has tangible benefits, I see no reason to stand in the way of progress.

pensions (they've worked hard all their lives and their pensions are not that high to begin with)
This is an interesting one. The obvious answer would be "get less money, pay less". But what that effectively means is that somebody who paid 1 million in a while ago, only gets 500000 out, just because people nowadays are earning less. That's hardly fair to him, and it makes you wonder why he even bothered working so hard and paying taxes in the first place.

So thinking about it, I may have to revise my decision to a neutral standpoint, but on the other hand it is simply not profitable to pay out money that we don't have. I think the entire Pension system is in dire need of a reform, and TBH I'm not really sure how I'd try to make the current one work.

school system and municipial elections (I think you should be able to influence your local politics)
Why thank you for trusting me with being able to influence my local politics, but even though I'd like to make my opinion count here, I'm not sure a lot of people should be allowed to vote, not having been here long.

Although, I read up on the FDPs proposal, and what they are saying is that non-EU-foreigners who have been here over 5 years should be allowed to vote locally. And it's the "over 5 years" part that convinces me that this might be viable. So maybe yes, given the caveat that you have to have been in this municipality for 5 years.

(btw, I don't know if you are aware of this, or how the system is in Sweden, but foreigners are already allowed to vote on a local/municipal level, if they are from an EU country - it's only the non-EU foreigners like me and the turks who aren't allowed to)
 

shad_68

DOOD looks like a lady
Joined
Nov 23, 2008
Messages
3,146
Location
Dortmund
Car(s)
FiST in mah butt
The DB already has shitty service, high costs, and lot's of delays.
Pretty much all of those problems can be atributed to the former chef of the DB (Mehdorn) trying to already run it like a private company, though.
 

phuckingduck

is awesome!
Joined
Mar 1, 2007
Messages
3,018
Location
Seattle, WA, USA
Car(s)
'03 Volvo S60 AWD
So wait, your school system seems like it punishes people hard for being screw offs (see: kids) at 6-10 years old. Is that right or did I misread that?
 

AiR

Forum Addict
Joined
Dec 19, 2005
Messages
11,985
Location
Suecia
Car(s)
Bulgogi Knedliky 1.6 GDI (Hyundai i30)
Klanky is a nice man to debate with :)

I think companies will stick around as long as they can find the right people to do the job in the country. Besides, corporations are good at evading taxes as it is (Malta anyone? ;)) so they are not such big victims as they want to be percieved... I don't say raise taxes either, but certainly not lower them.

My problem with GMO crop is that it can mutate with other plants and have unintended consequences. And being an advocate of ecological farming, I see no need to grow crops that have been made resistant to RoundUp or other pesticides in the first place. And I think Monsanto epitomise the image of a evil company. I don't like them either ;)

Your problem with DB is the same as mine, only I got the added luxury of battling with multiple companies to figure out how to get to places by train.

Here any foreigner are allowed to vote in the municipial elections if they have lived here for 3 years. Citizens from EU-countries, Iceland and Norway are exempt from the time requirement and can vote from the day they file for residency.
 
Top