Does no one here watch the Formula E? London ePrix

[Four Five Eight]

I thought the end of the Austrian Grand Prix was pretty crazy but this race was weird. Lucas Di Grassi crashes into the back of Buemi on lap 1 so they have to swap their cars and wind up in this place where they are effectively running a time trial as the rest of the field are having a race around them.

Anyway Sebastian Buemi is champion.

 

[Kiskaloo]

I do watch it and find it an interesting series. And yes, this was a good race.

 

[bone]

i watched the first race, yet to watch the second one!!

but buemi is an asshat! the only thing he did the whole year was first bin it in quali, and then complain and shout to his team/engineers about everyone who dared to race him
di grassi was stripped from 1 (2?) racewins because his team made errors, and he should've been on top!

i don't like buemi at all!

 

[mpicco]

I refuse to watch it until the electric technology is relevant. Changing cars mid race is ridiculous. If there was a place to develop and showcase quick-removable swappable batteries, this was it.

Also I don't like the tight city circuits they make them race on, I guess they're trying to convey electric cars are meant for cities, but I don't like it. Stupid shunts remind me of when they started taking Indy drivers out of their ovals and into city circuits it'd be a blood bath of silly driver errors and crashes.

 

[bone]

I refuse to watch it until the electric technology is relevant. Changing cars mid race is ridiculous. If there was a place to develop and showcase quick-removable swappable batteries, this was it.

so why do you watch F1? changing tires after 50 km, only having 100l of fuel to race over 300km, cars that look like a spaceship
as relevant as FE...

 

[mpicco]

F1 was at the forefront of many technologies for cars and engines for a long time, the petrol car has "matured" now and it's harder and harder to come up with new ground breaking things, although as much as I hate the turbos, maybe something good will come out of the new eng regs... although possibly not since the development is frozen, stupidest decision ever.
Electric cars on the other hand are in their infancy and have all the potential for development, but Formula e seems to rely on existing technology instead of innovating.

I watch F1 cos that's where the best drivers with the best cars compete. At leas that the theory, fucking Berny.

 

[bone]

F1 was at the forefront of many technologies for cars and engines for a long time, the petrol car has "matured" now and it's harder and harder to come up with new ground breaking things, although as much as I hate the turbos, maybe something good will come out of the new eng regs... although possibly not since the development is frozen, stupidest decision ever.
Electric cars on the other hand are in their infancy and have all the potential for development, but Formula e seems to rely on existing technology instead of innovating.

I watch F1 cos that's where the best drivers with the best cars compete. At leas that the theory, fucking Berny.

engine development in F1 is not frozen, from next year on they'll have no more tokens, they can change all they want in the engine, the only limitation is only 4 engines for the season (5 if more than 20 races)

and FE does not rely on existing technology, in the first year, everyone was forced to drive the same car, because no one would be willing to develop a complete framework without knowing it would ever come off the ground.
this year the engines and gearboxes were open (with some teams running 2 engines and no gearbox, while others had a single engines and 2 or 3 gears), and from next year max weight of batteries is lowered, and max allowed regeneration will increase from 100KW to 150KW
Renault (e.Dams), Audi (ABT), Citroen (DS-Virgin) and jaguar (brand new team) are all in championship, with williams pushing batteriedevelopment.
the comming years development will explode and the series will only get better

current planning is to drive the whole race with a single car in the 18/19 season

 

[mpicco]

I bet they could run the whole race as is with swappable batteries which make a heck of a ton more sense for the real world. Picture this, you're driving around, you get the low battery warning, you go to a 'gas station' and go in ask the clerk to swap your batteries and be off in 10 minutes, instead of having to recharge for hours.
Whats even better, if you run out somewhere, you don't need to call a crane, all you gotta do is walk to the closest selling point with your empty battery on hand and swap it for a new one, walk back and put it in there.

 

[Kiskaloo]

I bet they could run the whole race as is with swappable batteries which make a heck of a ton more sense for the real world. Picture this, you're driving around, you get the low battery warning, you go to a 'gas station' and go in ask the clerk to swap your batteries and be off in 10 minutes, instead of having to recharge for hours.

Tesla had been working on something similar, where they can drop the battery pack of a Model S and install a new one, but ended it once they developed their Supercharging Station network. While the swap was significantly faster (two minutes instead of the twenty of the supercharger), there was a cost and you needed to make an appointment, compared to free SC use where you just drive up and plug in.

 

[mpicco]

Yes, yes, new ideas and inventions have problems initially, I bet finding fuel was not that easy either in the 1900s, but you can't drop something like this just because of that.

Who can stop 20 minutes if they're late for work? Heck who wants to stop 20 minutes for anything at all? If the only charging station within your range is currently full of cars which just started charging, that's 40 minutes instead of 20.

 

[bone]

I bet they could run the whole race as is with swappable batteries which make a heck of a ton more sense for the real world.

why would they do this? why invent the whole the swapping thing, if their intention is to do a whole race in a single car? they're just not there yet...

 

[Four Five Eight]

I think they just need to improve the charging and battery capacity. They were charging DiGrassi's and Buemi's cars during the race because they had to. I wasn't really paying attention to how long it took.
The who has 20 minutes to stop for work seems a bit weird since typically speaking the car would have charged overnight ready for you before you set off and then if you had a charge port at work you'd be ready for the trip home easily.

 

[mpicco]

I think they just need to improve the charging and battery capacity. They were charging DiGrassi's and Buemi's cars during the race because they had to. I wasn't really paying attention to how long it took.
The who has 20 minutes to stop for work seems a bit weird since typically speaking the car would have charged overnight ready for you before you set off and then if you had a charge port at work you'd be ready for the trip home easily.

Okay good luck taking an electric taxi, bus, etc, things which need to run all the time and would really not benefit from having to stop 20 minutes every couple of feet they cover.
The stopping and charging is just not practical. You can dance around to trying to make it work, but that's not gonna make it more practical, it just means you are surrendering your time for the sake of the bad technology. Which is not really necessary because the swappable battery concept eliminates it completely.

 

[Four Five Eight]

Okay good luck taking an electric taxi, bus, etc, things which need to run all the time and would really not benefit from having to stop 20 minutes every couple of feet they cover.
The stopping and charging is just not practical. You can dance around to trying to make it work, but that's not gonna make it more practical, it just means you are surrendering your time for the sake of the bad technology. Which is not really necessary because the swappable battery concept eliminates it completely.

This is all straw man, I'm not saying everything should be electric I'm saying it's not as inconvenient as you seem to think. You don't have to stop for 20 minutes every couple of feet a charge should be enough to get you through the day unless you drive from London to Edinburgh on a daily basis. Most people don't drive enough to necessitate stops while on journeys, I certainly don't. I drive at most maybe 80kms in a day I could easily run an i3 without having to stop to charge on the way to work or even on the way home afterwards.
Not to mention there is plenty of stuff you could stop for more then 20 minutes for going to a movie for example those tend to run for more then 20 minutes. Stopping for lunch maybe, eating out for dinner some people even spend more then 20 minutes shopping. I have to stop to fill up for petrol every other week, well not stop so much as go out for it. That's an inconvenience but I don't think that makes the petrol engine a bad idea.
Swapping batteries isn't a great idea because it compromises the design of the car, you'd have to have a standardised battery and it would never work.

 

[mpicco]

So you're suggesting every parking space should be a charging station, or have hundreds and hundreds of wires running around?
This seems really convenient compared to transforming the traditional gas station into a battery center, doesn't it?
The i3's range is around 130km, and the full charging time is 4.5 hours according to bmw itself. I used to live 230 km away from my university and I liked coming back fridays to my folk's to spend the weekend. Instead of a 2 hour drive that'd be like an 8 hour drive with a 4 hour recharge in the middle of flipping nowhere.
If I want to drive down to the vacation spot we used to go to when I was a child, that's 580 km away. "Hey kids get your butts ready cos we're gonna be in the car for like 24 hours!"

The batteries don't have the capacity nor the recharge time to justify fixed batteries and "plug in your car when you need to". Full electric cars of this type belong to, as you have well defended, light use in city driving. Other applications like I mentioned above need another technology, stop and plug just does not cut it.

 

[Four Five Eight]

So you're suggesting every parking space should be a charging station, or have hundreds and hundreds of wires running around?
This seems really convenient compared to transforming the traditional gas station into a battery center, doesn't it?

It actually is more convenient, it's much easier to design and build a power socket then develop a revolving battery that goes in every make of car no matter if it's an SUV or a little hatchback or what size it is. I don't know what the hell would make you think that's easier. And why would you convert a gas station, you need those to fill the petrol cars.

The i3's range is around 130km, and the full charging time is 4.5 hours according to bmw itself. I used to live 230 km away from my university and I liked coming back fridays to my folk's to spend the weekend. Instead of a 2 hour drive that'd be like an 8 hour drive with a 4 hour recharge in the middle of flipping nowhere.
If I want to drive down to the vacation spot we used to go to when I was a child, that's 580 km away. "Hey kids get your butts ready cos we're gonna be in the car for like 24 hours!"

The batteries don't have the capacity nor the recharge time to justify fixed batteries and "plug in your car when you need to". Full electric cars of this type belong to, as you have well defended, light use in city driving. Other applications like I mentioned above need another technology, stop and plug just does not cut it.

Let's be real here, I don't know that many Uni students are going to be driving i3s not to mention you've picked out 2 scenarios which are hardly every day scenarios. And I don't know about you but I had my fair share of long trips in cars as a child and my parents or friends parents never said something like that to me.
Having an electric car is good enough for most people, some people might have an electric car and a petrol car for those 580km trips to the vacation spot and some may decide their okay with not just driving non stop to the vacation spot. 580 kms that's like 8 hours of driving or longer depending on the route, unless you are mad you are going to stop at some stage. That's about 5 stops to charge so unless you are only going for a weekend or an overnight trip or something it's not the end of the world and it's more like 13 hours not 24.
Electric cars aren't ready to replace anything but they're a perfectly viable option for many, myself included though I don't have one and as far as I know charge points aren't even that common in Auckland.

 

[mpicco]

It actually is more convenient, it's much easier to design and build a power socket then develop a revolving battery that goes in every make of car no matter if it's an SUV or a little hatchback or what size it is. I don't know what the hell would make you think that's easier. And why would you convert a gas station, you need those to fill the petrol cars.

No it's not that difficult. We've learned our lessons about everyone getting a different and fun plug to charge their smartphones in the early 2000s, now it's mostly USB for everything and then Apple.
You would only need 2 types of battery.
And yes you need the petrol stations for now, but petrol cars will go away eventually.

Let's be real here, I don't know that many Uni students are going to be driving i3s not to mention you've picked out 2 scenarios which are hardly every day scenarios. And I don't know about you but I had my fair share of long trips in cars as a child and my parents or friends parents never said something like that to me. (1)
Having an electric car is good enough for most people, some people might have an electric car and a petrol car for those 580km trips to the vacation spot and some may decide their okay with not just driving non stop to the vacation spot. 580 kms that's like 8 hours of driving or longer depending on the route, unless you are mad you are going to stop at some stage. That's about 5 stops to charge so unless you are only going for a weekend or an overnight trip or something it's not the end of the world and it's more like 13 hours not 24. (2)
Electric cars aren't ready to replace anything but they're a perfectly viable option for many, myself included though I don't have one and as far as I know charge points aren't even that common in Auckland.

(1) of course they're not every day scenarios but they're still scenarios. You need a car that can do both things. I'm not gonna get a second car (and most people will agree with me here) just to do the long trips. And of course your parents never said that to you cos I meant that's what you'd have to tell your children if you made the trip in an electric car.

(2) How is it not (almost) 24? You set off, drive 130 km, (1.5 hours) have to wait 4.5 to charge, another 130 (+1.5) stop to charge (at this point you're half way and it's been 12 hours already)

So sure, if you're rich, live in a crowded city and can afford an electric car, can put up with the hassle of charging it, Formula E might attract you. It just doesn't do it for me and honestly everyone I've described it to was like "oh that sounds awesome, electric is the future" until I mentioned they have to swap cars mid way and then it turns to "are you fucking kidding me?"

 

[Kiskaloo]

And yes you need the petrol stations for now, but petrol cars will go away eventually.

And when they do, it will be because the non-petrol-powered cars will be as convenient to own and operate as petrol-powered cars currently are.

And if those cars are all-electric, it will mean the battery packs will go as far between charges as petrol cars do between fill-ups or charging stations will be as common as petrol stations and they can fully charge a battery in the same time period as you can fill a petrol tank.

 

[mpicco]

Wow can I borrow your crystal ball?

There's absolutely no way Petrol will be replaced by something else, like, hydrogen cells? Some compact self contained generator? Does it have to be chemical batteries? Cos I could bet they're not the future and certainly not the way they are now (pug and play).

 

[Kiskaloo]

There's absolutely no way Petrol will be replaced by something else, like, hydrogen cells?

Hydrogen fuel cells makes the most sense to me as a "direct" replacement for petrol power as it offers similar flexibility and you refuel at a pump like you do petrol.