Dual exhausts? everywhere, but not on the right cars

Merc63

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I would agree with you, you can't call something like a 240z a GT car, or even a 350z they are not exactly built for any kind of comfort. The M, (R)S, AMG would be GT cars so would the 3000GT or the Z32 (300ZX).

Was the 250 GTO built for comfort? the 240Z was a GT just like the larger Ferrari 275 GTB.
 

argatoga

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Bad Bowtie

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Inferiority complex? :lol: No. I can respect just about any make, model, swap, or type of racing there is. I like what I like best, and others are entitled to their on views with the same stipulations. Your wording sounded like it crossed that line to me, so I called you out on it. That's all there is too it. Meaning gets lost over the internet when all you have to go off of is text.

I may not have done all 3 types, but I can say that I honestly don't need to. Been to a couple autocross events, kind of fun to watch but I'd be annoyed if I had to pay to do some low speed turning and braking. Small, painfully slow cars are rewarded for being just that in autocross...jk. Been on some nice back roads where I could go WOT for more than a 2 or 3 seconds and had 10x more fun than autocross would be. I've done a little bit of research on attacking corners road racing style and had ton of practice on those roads in cars I've felt very comfortable learning in, so I think I'd be about average around a circuit. The Camaro I sold not too long ago was built for handling, and I did pretty well on it when we went out on the twisties. There was a guy in a Civic or CRX, can't remember, that did a good amount of auto-x and a couple road races and I kept up with him in the corners. Never went to pass in the straights though, just stayed on his ass. There was another guy with a 600+ rwhp TT GTO out that day as well, kept somewhat near him on the straights because of how I did in the corners. Moral of the story is that just because you don't compete in an official competition doesn't un-qualify you to make a decision on something.

Nittos are junk. :lol: In terms of drag radials, uncle Mickey reigns supreme. I've never seen someone complain about MT's not hooking...seems that's mostly what you hear from the Nitto guys.

(Those new NT05Rs aren't too shabby though)

Drag racing is also more taxing on your car, usually. You can rip drivetrain bits out in one day of hard drag racing, but you'd have to be a complete idiot to do that much damage on a road course.

As was already stated, that is definitely wrong. Both can be equally harsh. The launch is more violent in drag racing, but in road racing you are running "balls to the wall" for longer than 10+/- seconds.
 

LeVeL

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None of them were sports cars. GTs, yes, Sports cars, no. Too many seats, for one. I'm a purist, from teh old school. Sports cars are open, 2 seat cars designed with agility and handling for road racing as a primary function. Any more seats or add a roof and it's a GT. Any more doors and it's a sedan (and yes, i believe there are good sport sedans and sport coupes, but they are not what we woudl call sports cars).
I disagree. Is the limited and rare Miata coupe not a sports car? How about the E30 M3? Viper coupe? The list goes on and on.
I will, however, admit that I can't think of a single car with more than 2 doors that I'd consider a true sports car.


No. Roadster is a distinct bodystyle, a convertible 2 door with no rollup windows. A 2 door with roll up side windows is a cabriolet. Both are subsets of convertibles, but roadster is NOT merely a small car with a folding top. The terms are not interchangeable. There are sports cars that are not roadsters and there are roadsters that are not sports cars.
I always thought that roadsters just didn't have tops at all and it had nothing to do with windows.


I may not have done all 3 types, but I can say that I honestly don't need to. Been to a couple autocross events, kind of fun to watch but I'd be annoyed if I had to pay to do some low speed turning and braking. Small, painfully slow cars are rewarded for being just that in autocross...jk. Been on some nice back roads where I could go WOT for more than a 2 or 3 seconds and had 10x more fun than autocross would be. I've done a little bit of research on attacking corners road racing style and had ton of practice on those roads in cars I've felt very comfortable learning in, so I think I'd be about average around a circuit.
Research and backroad driving have prepared you for the track? Watching an autocross has made you decide that it's not fun? I apologize in advance for this comment, but you have no idea what you're talking about. Right now you are coming off as nothing more than an armchair racer.


The Camaro I sold not too long ago was built for handling, and I did pretty well on it when we went out on the twisties. There was a guy in a Civic or CRX, can't remember, that did a good amount of auto-x and a couple road races and I kept up with him in the corners.
No offense, but a half-decent driver in a decently set-up CRX would walk away from a Camaro in a corner. A friend of mine (whom I mentioned earlier in this thread) had a CRX with suspension, decent tires, and a swap (170hp at the crack, if that) and we've gone out with many different cars. No one could even hope to keep up with that little ol' Honda. No one.
 

prizrak

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Was the 250 GTO built for comfort? the 240Z was a GT just like the larger Ferrari 275 GTB.
GT as in racing series vs GT as in marketing term are two completely different things. 240Z was a sports car, 300ZX was a GT car. Those "definitions" are 100% marketing terms and keep in mind that definitions can change with time (like gay as in happy vs gay as in homosexual).
 
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Bad Bowtie

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Research and backroad driving have prepared you for the track? Watching an autocross has made you decide that it's not fun? I apologize in advance for this comment, but you have no idea what you're talking about. Right now you are coming off as nothing more than an armchair racer.

I didn't say I would go out and be an expert by any means, but I think I can hold my own enough to be considered totally average. I know where I should on the track, where I should start to brake, throttle modulation, where grip runs out to name a few things. Obviously I don't have it all covered, but I wouldn't be the one to show up to the track and hold everyone up. :lol: I've trashed around a good amount of cars in my life, so it's not just my own that I've learned from and about. Now, the one thing that I could not prepare for is the other cars out there, and the unpredictability that comes with that. I'm not someone who jumps into something and then finds out how I do, I look into it for a while and learn as much as possible. It should be noted, we use the full road on these runs, not just the "I can stay in my lane really well" type of thing. I've probably seen MAYBE 20 cars out there on the 30+ times we've gone out there. It's not a track, but it does provide a good basis to try and find the line and braking points. I'd probably end up watching an event or two just to learn the track and ask some questions to those in the front before I got out there myself. I'm just that type of person.

No offense, but a half-decent driver in a decently set-up CRX would walk away from a Camaro in a corner. A friend of mine (whom I mentioned earlier in this thread) had a CRX with suspension, decent tires, and a swap (170hp at the crack, if that) and we've gone out with many different cars. No one could even hope to keep up with that little ol' Honda. No one.

Poor phrasing by me. By "kept up," I didn't mean I was on his ass in every corner, but I kept within a reasonable distance. On a track, lap after lap, he could no doubt put a good amount of distance between him and I with any decent amount of turns. However, there was enough balance between straight and turn to keep me competitive. That right there is why I prefer road racing to autocross, balance. Personally, I can never have too much power. If I did decide to venture into another form of racing, I'd like for it to be something where I could stretch the cars legs while still having to deal with tons of twisties.

Again, I never claimed him to be an expert, nor his car to be an all out, no compromise track car. It was built with handling as it's purpose, but was far from the most impressive car out there. He also wasn't a perfect driver, like you seemed to assume I said he was. He was an above average driver with a good car for the task, nothing more, nothing less. If he was better and his car was setup better, I'm sure it would as ugly as if we went to the dragstrip, but those were not the circumstances and I had a ton of fun that day.

People know what they like, and what they don't. I'll give autocross a shot from the driver's seat some time, but I am 99% sure it will be a 1 time thing. It just really doesn't doesn't appeal much to my liking. If I decide to stretch my budget a bit, I might just end up in a C6 Vette here in the next 6 months or so. I've always said I'll venture into road racing once I get into a car worthy of it. But again, I won't just be jumping into it and hope I'm good. You can never research too much, or ask those better than you too many questions.

Like I said before though, I like straights. I'll most likely end up in another f-body as my next car so I can buy a house sooner (than if I stretch the budget for a C6). I've began to get a plan for a turbo setup together, shoot for some 130+ trap speeds and go have some fun on the streets. I'd love to attend TX2K12, not that I would even be in the neighborhood of 90% of the stuff there, but that's more my scene. Any organized race involving turns is a good 2 or 3 years out at the most. I'd rather put that kind of money towards an eboost2 or the damn $1,500 hair dryer.

Not that it matters, but have you ever heard of Sam Strano?


With that said, I'll let this thread get back on topic. Feel free to PM me if you'd like to discuss this all further. Like I said, I don't take this internet stuff too seriously. :)

edit: This would be a whole lot easier if you could just go on a cruise with us and make the decision based on facts rather than words on a computer screen and inferences made from that.

edit2: I do have a GoPro Motorsports HERO gathering some dust, maybe I'll put it to good use soon...
 
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Merc63

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People know what they like, and what they don't. I'll give autocross a shot from the driver's seat some time, but I am 99% sure it will be a 1 time thing. It just really doesn't doesn't appeal much to my liking.

You might. it's surprising how many drag racers tend to like autocross, as it's often a drag race with corners. And Pro Slalom is moreso as it uses a drag race christmas tree start side by side.

Another good analogy is road racing is like a fast metal roller coaster, while autocross is like the semi-fast wooden roller coaster. The wooden coaster is going to be slower, no loops, no rolls, but it's more violent side to side and often as fun in it's own way.

Or as a friend of mine says "Autocross vs road racing... the war usually waged between people who autocross and people who watch road racing on television."
 

prizrak

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Or as a friend of mine says "Autocross vs road racing... the war usually waged between people who autocross and people who watch road racing on television."
I like that quote, it's quite true, I did an AutoX in a Genesis Coupe when they had a promo for it, basically you show up and they let you drive it around an autocross course in a parking lot, was quite a bit of fun even though it was all 2nd gear, even managed to spin out in the V6. (Bad AWD habits that don't quite work in RWD).
 

Merc63

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I disagree. Is the limited and rare Miata coupe not a sports car? How about the E30 M3? Viper coupe? The list goes on and on.

GTs, the lot. The Viper even says so int it's name: GTS. Just liek the closed roof version of the MGB was teh MGB GT. ;)

I always thought that roadsters just didn't have tops at all and it had nothing to do with windows.

Most of the time the roadsters had teh tops folded and stowed away, but they did have tops, as the '30 Ford shows. I can show you pictures of the other roadsters with tops up, as well. The original Viper RT/10 was also a roadster, with removeable side curtains instead of roll up windows.

jaguar-vehicles-1956-jaguar-xk140-roadster-2424840.jpg


3307607_large2.jpg

That's the actual definition of a roadster. Make it a 4 door and it becomes a phaeton. As I said, these are all coachbuilding terms that transfered from wagons over to cars after cars replaced the wagons. There are other terms that we don't have much (if at all) like Landau and landaulet (Though I believe Lexus just built a landaulet for the royal wedding)
 
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Merc63

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That picture makes me sad, not that I especially like the car or anything but cars in this condition make me sad.

Makes me sad, too. Mostly because it's still worth more like that than all my cars combined. ;)
 

jasonof2000

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You might. it's surprising how many drag racers tend to like autocross, as it's often a drag race with corners. And Pro Slalom is moreso as it uses a drag race christmas tree start side by side.

Back when I lived in Florida I knew a guy in his 40's who was into drag racing since he was a teenager and his Firebird was set up for drag racing; on a whim he tried autocrossing and he loved it. His car was not set up for handling at all and he was all over the place going incredibly slow, yet he had a big smile on his face the entire time and spent most of his runs in a cloud of smoke and partially sideways.

Even though I own a SVT Focus and a Miata the most entertaining cars to watch are the owners who show up despite having a bad handling car (or truck), I've seen Ford Rangers, Crown Vics, a Dodge Intrepid drag prepared Firebirds and Mustangs all show up and wallow about with the owners having a blast.

Or as a friend of mine says "Autocross vs road racing... the war usually waged between people who autocross and people who watch road racing on television."

Good quote. I enjoy autocrossing but I don't take it seriously. It is a fun thing to do, a good way to spend a Sunday and to learn about the car.
 

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Back when I lived in Florida I knew a guy in his 40's who was into drag racing since he was a teenager and his Firebird was set up for drag racing; on a whim he tried autocrossing and he loved it. His car was not set up for handling at all and he was all over the place going incredibly slow, yet he had a big smile on his face the entire time and spent most of his runs in a cloud of smoke and partially sideways.

Even though I own a SVT Focus and a Miata the most entertaining cars to watch are the owners who show up despite having a bad handling car (or truck), I've seen Ford Rangers, Crown Vics, a Dodge Intrepid drag prepared Firebirds and Mustangs all show up and wallow about with the owners having a blast.



Good quote. I enjoy autocrossing but I don't take it seriously. It is a fun thing to do, a good way to spend a Sunday and to learn about the car.

This gives me hope maybe it's not so bad. Still seems somewhat lame, but the events are held less than 5 miles from my house, so maybe I'll go more often...not competing until I get another car though. The Fuckus is no fun. :(
 

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This gives me hope maybe it's not so bad. Still seems somewhat lame, but the events are held less than 5 miles from my house, so maybe I'll go more often...not competing until I get another car though. The Fuckus is no fun. :(

I disagree, the Focus is a decent H stock car. Unlike a lot of other cars in its class it has independant rear suspension, besides the first time you show up you won't be any good at it, just show up and fling the car around and hang out with other petrosexuals.
 

Bad Bowtie

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I disagree, the Focus is a decent H stock car. Unlike a lot of other cars in its class it has independant rear suspension, besides the first time you show up you won't be any good at it, just show up and fling the car around and hang out with other petrosexuals.

Eh, still probably won't head out. We'll see.


Just out of curiousity, what class is a 2008+ Cobalt SS/TC compete in? Like what types of cars, I don't know what each class means.
 

Lastsoul

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Continuing the offtopic about the words sportscar and roadster. Sadly I can't find my source about the words, but it defined cabriolet, roadster and spyder pretty well. Maybe there was some more definitions as well, but I can't remember.

Cabriolet: A car with convertible roof and more than two seats, proper windows etc.

Roadster: two seats, windows and convertable roof.

Spyder: two seats, some kind of weather protection, but you'll still get wet.

Of course these definitions are extremely vague thanks to marketing departments etc. Well, Porsche used the word Spyder really well with Boxster Spyder, but today it's mostly used just as italian word for roadster. Personally I don't give a damn. Sportscar is a car, which compromises a lot for the sake of driving. If it doesn't have a roof and it's got just two seats, then it can be a roadster.

But! When you build a roadster, you sacrifice a lot of structural integrity, which might compromise drivability! Does that make open-top car more sportscar than closed top? You sacrifice handling for sun and singing birds. And 911? Surely it is a definition of a sportscar. But it has four seats, that's two too much. I agree. But wait! GT2/GT3 models have only two seats, so even if they're relatively same cars (same bodyshell at least), are they more sportscars as four seater 911s? So let's just forget these terms, they've been ruined by the press and marketing departmens for a long time ago.
 

argatoga

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But! When you build a roadster, you sacrifice a lot of structural integrity, which might compromise drivability!

Not if it is built from the ground up to be a convertible. Open cockpit race cars like those used in LMP1 and F1 aren't exactly suffering from the wobbles.
 

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Not if it is built from the ground up to be a convertible. Open cockpit race cars like those used in LMP1 and F1 aren't exactly suffering from the wobbles.

They don't have doors with deep cutouts that are the real culprits behind wobbly convertibles. Structurally speaking, the openings in those cars do little to compromise stiffness. And the S2000 weighs more than it could thanks to the bracing needed to keep it stiff, and if it'd been made as a coupe to the same stiffness parameters, it would easily have been much lighter.
 

Lastsoul

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Yeah, a car (yeah, road car, with doors) with open roof can never be as light and rigid as a car with fixed roof. My mechanics of materials professor demonstrated this really well. Take a hard plastic tube and try to bend and twist it. It should be pretty unflexible. Now take a knife and make a transverse cut about 80% deep of the radius. Try to twist and bend it now. It's wobbly as hell, and you barely removed any material. You've just created open-top plastic tube. If you've ever opened both doors in a cabriolet, you've probably noticed there's only the floor keeping it together. Floor is also pretty flat part of sheet metal, which is not very rigid. Floor plus roof on the other hand is.

But S2000 demonstrates, a open top car can be rigid, but at the cost of additional weight. It can be minimized by clever design, just like Honda has done, but it's still heavier and less rigid than S2000 coupe could be. Do we care if it's well made? Of course not.
 
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