Earthquake/Tsunami Thread - FG Members Check In.

[Dr_Grip]

Some Greenpeace asshole on German TV makes sure to use "Chernobyl" in every second sentence. I'm not overly pro-nuclear power, but that's just fearmongering.

 

[h-p]

That said, most plants in the US are the military-type PWR reactors, which are inherently more stable than the BWR types. Europe and Japan seem to favor the BWR types, mostly because they're cheaper. PWRs cost a lot more to make.

Not really. PWR is more popular all around.

Some Finnish nuclear expert said on tv yesterday that Japan has got multiple warnings from IAEA about inadequate safety systems during power outage in the past.

 

[eizbaer]

1015 is what i read was in microsievert... so that would actually be 1.015 millisievert...
whatev's everybody's reporting something different all the time anyway, nobody knows what's true and what's not.

 

[Spectre]

Not really. PWR is more popular all around.

I don't know nearly as much about foreign plant type choices - I have enough on my plate chasing down stats on US plants for debates and to throw at legislators in support of nuclear projects! I had thought I'd read that BWR was more popular in Europe and Japan; good to know - PWR is more stable and therefore safer. Too bad Fukushima Unit One wasn't a PWR or we probably would not be having this discussion.

For those that don't know from prior posts, I am pro-nuclear energy.

1015 is what i read was in microsievert... so that would actually be 1.015 millisievert...
whatev's everybody's reporting something different all the time anyway, nobody knows what's true and what's not.

For comparison, one millisievert is about what astronauts in orbit get every 36 hours. Or if you live in some parts of France for 9 months. Not great, but while it can make you sick it's not fatal.

Some Greenpeace asshole on German TV makes sure to use "Chernobyl" in every second sentence. I'm not overly pro-nuclear power, but that's just fearmongering.

Lots of that going around, even here on this thread.

IF (and I say if because the universe is perverse) this is concluded per the general worst case scenario (core slagged, clad melted, whole mess in the bottom of the containment vessel) without mass radiation release or a Chernobyl type explosion, they're going to look like idiots.

 

[narf]

They reported 1015millisievert (1.015sievert) at the site, but the level apparently fell after the explosion. I didn't know what that meant but wiki says...

For acute (that is, received in a relatively short time, up to about one hour) full body equivalent dose, 1 Sv causes nausea...

Did they say over what time you would get a dose of 1mSv?

 

[eizbaer]

Did they say over what time you would get a dose of 1Sv?

mSv! the point of my post was to clarify that it should be mSv not Sv... 1000 times less than hansvonaxion threw in here (at least that's what i read - spiegel to blame so don't kill me if it's wrong). as far as i could make out, that was over the period of one hour.

 

[hansvonaxion]

Shit, my bad, was micro. 1.015milli. So it really was a "tiny" amount as they said.

Another unrelated note, would you believe TV stations use different colours, or the same colours in different order for tsunami warnings?!

One channel uses pink for large and red for medium while another uses red for large and pink for medium! Another one uses red and orange. Ridiculous.

 

[narf]

mSv! the point of my post was to clarify that it should be mSv not Sv... 1000 times less than hansvonaxion threw in here (at least that's what i read - spiegel to blame). as far as i could make out, that was over the period of one hour

Both things are important to know. I'm listening to NHK world right now, they just said 1015?Sv - but didn't mention the time frame.

Assuming per hour, that would be ten head xrays per hour or one chest CT per day. Not healthy, but not catastrophic yet.

 

[MacGuffin]

From what I gathered, the problem is not so much the pressure inside the containment vessel but the temperature. A meltdown could obviously lead to temperatures around 2000? C and then even the best containment vessel would give away at some point.

 

[zeggawong]

This guy is great http://www.ustream.tv/channel/yokosonews

 

[Spectre]

From what I gathered, the problem is not so much the pressure inside the containment vessel but the temperature. A meltdown could obviously lead to temperatures around 2000? C and then even the best containment vessel would give away at some point.

The reactor is designed to have three layers of protection or physical shielding. First is the reactor vessel or pressure vessel, the container around the water and reactor core proper. Think of this as a sort of large tea kettle.

Around the tea kettle is another line of defense, the metal clad, a steel vessel designed to stay intact and hold it up to 2200F or so. The containment vessel is made out of special concrete and steel that surrounds all this. This is a picture of the vessel and clad being installed in a containment building.

Another comment from elsewhere:

These are 40 year old reactors with weak points in their design (among them the need for active power to be maintained to keep them from melting down). Newer designs are made to be able to completely lose power in any state of normal operation and still stay contained.

CNN just had the Japanese PM (I think) at a presser on, he's stated that the explosion was non-nuclear and there hasn't been an additional release.

 

[h-p]

I don't know nearly as much about foreign plant type choices - I have enough on my plate chasing down stats on US plants for debates and to throw at legislators in support of nuclear projects! I had thought I'd read that BWR was more popular in Europe and Japan; good to know - PWR is more stable and therefore safer. Too bad Fukushima Unit One wasn't a PWR or we probably would not be having this discussion.

I'm not an expert (only one course on power plants in school), but from what list's I found, only a few countries use many BWR's (Japan being one of them, about 50/50 between PWR and BWR).

Japanese are apparently starting to cool the thing with sea water.

 

[hansvonaxion]

A bit of a round up on what Chief Cabinet Secretary Edano said earlier, which also address some of the questions people are asking:

"The nuclear reactor is surrounded by a steel reactor container, which is then surrounded by a concrete building," Chief Cabinet Secretary Yukio Edano said. "The concrete building collapsed. We found out that the reactor container inside didn't explode. We've confirmed that the reactor container was not damaged. The explosion didn't occur inside the reactor container. As such there was no large amount of radiation leakage outside."

hugo - a number of people throughout the morning have mentioned talk of a meltdown on German televsion. We have heard no suggestion of one having taken place, however, the latest news is that there is a low level radiation leak.

Kyodo reports that Nissan and Honda have joined Toyota in shutting Japanese factories. Two of Nissan's three factories have been damaged by the quake. Other firms to shut installations are Nippon Steel, Toyo Tire & Rubber and Sumitomo Rubber Industries. Mitsubishi Electric and NEC are to check production lines to assess whether to resume production on Monday.

 

[calvinhobbes]

I'm not an expert (only one course on power plants in school), but from what list's I found, only a few countries use many BWR's (Japan being one of them, about 50/50 between PWR and BWR).

Wikipedia says that we've got 17 active reactors in Germany, of which six are BWRs.

 

[hansvonaxion]

Damn, they keep showing new footage, crazy stuff. I think I might watch a movie, try to get it out of my head for a while.

 

[Spectre]

That would be the secondary containment building, which surrounds the actual containment vessel, etc., etc., if I'm reading the specs right.

Tepco, the plant operator, has a website on which they're posting updates via press releases. Most of this we 'knew,' but some of this is interesting. Here's the last three releases in reverse chronological order, specific to the Fukushima plant.

Press Release (Mar 12,2011)
Plant Status of Fukushima Daini Nuclear Power Station (as of 3PM arch 12th )


Unit 1 (shut down at 2:48PM on March 11th)
- Reactor is shut down and reactor water level is stable.
- Offsite power is available.
- At 8:19am, there was an alarm indicating that one of the control rods
was not properly inserted, however, at 10:43am the alarm was automatically
called off. Other control rods have been confirmed that they are fully
inserted (reactor is in subcritical status).
- Status of main steam isolation valve: closed
- Injection of water into the reactor had been done by the Reactor Core
Isolation Cooling System, but at 3:48AM, injection by Make-up Water
Condensate System begun.
- At 6:08PM, we announced the increase in reactor containment vessel
pressure, assumed to be due to leakage of reactor coolant. However, we
do not believe there is leakage of reactor coolant in the containment
vessel at this moment.
- At 5:22AM, the temperature of the suppression chamber exceeded 100
degrees. As the reactor pressure suppression function was lost, at 5:22AM,
it was determined that a specific incident stipulated in article 15,
clause 1 has occurred.
- We decided to prepare implementing measures to reduce the pressure of
the reactor containment vessel (partial discharge of air containing
radioactive materials) in order to fully secure safety. This preparation
work commenced at around 9:43am.

Unit 2 (shut down at 2:48PM on March 11th)
- Reactor is shut down and reactor water level is stable.
- Offsite power is available.
- Control rods are fully inserted (reactor is in subcritical status).
- Status of main steam isolation valve: closed
- Injection of water into the reactor had been done by the Reactor Core
Isolation Cooling System, but at 4:50AM, injection by Make-up Water
Condensate System begun.
- We do not believe there is leakage of reactor coolant in the containment
vessel.
- At 5:22AM, the temperature of the suppression chamber exceeded 100
degrees. As the reactor pressure suppression function was lost, at 5:22AM,
it was determined that a specific incident stipulated in article 15,
clause 1 has occurred.
- We decided to prepare implementing measures to reduce the pressure of
the reactor containment vessel (partial discharge of air containing
radioactive materials) in order to fully secure safety. This preparation
work commenced at around 10:33AM and completed at 10:58AM.

Unit 3 (shut down at 2:48PM on March 11th)
- Reactor is shut down and reactor water level is stable.
- Offsite power is available.
- Control rods are fully inserted (reactor is in subcritical status)
- Status of main steam isolation valve: closed
- Reactor Core Isolation Cooling System is turned off. Currently,
injection of water into the reactor is done by Make-up Water Condensate
System.
- We do not believe there is leakage of reactor coolant in the containment
vessel.
- We decided to prepare implementing measures to reduce the pressure of
the reactor containment vessel (partial discharge of air containing
radioactive materials) in order to fully secure safety. This preparation
work commenced at around 12:08PM and completed at 12:13AM.
- At 12:15PM, the reactor achieved cold shut down.

Unit 4 (shut down at 2:48PM on March 11th)
- Reactor is shut down and reactor water level is stable.
- Offsite power is available.
- Control rods are fully inserted (reactor is in subcritical status)
- Status of main steam isolation valve: closed
- Reactor Core Isolation Cooling System is turned off. Currently,
injection of water into the reactor is done by Make-up Water Condensate
System.
- We do not believe there is leakage of reactor coolant in the containment
vessel.
- In order to cool down the reactor, injection of water into the reactor
had been done by the Reactor Core Isolation Cooling System, however, At
6:07AM, the temperature of the suppression chamber exceeded 100 degrees.
As the reactor pressure suppression function was lost, at 6:07AM, it was
determined that a specific incident stipulated in article 15, clause 1 has
occurred.
- We decided to prepare implementing measures to reduce the pressure of
the reactor containment vessel (partial discharge of air containing
radioactive materials) in order to fully secure safety. This preparation
work commenced at around 11:44AM and completed at 11:52AM.

Indication from monitoring posts installed at the site boundary did not
show any difference from ordinary level.
No radiation impact to the external environment has been confirmed. We
will continue to monitor in detail the possibility of radioactive material
being discharged from exhaust stack or discharge canal.
There is no missing person within the power station.
We are presently checking on the site situation of each plant while
keeping the situation of aftershock and Tsunami in mind.
A seriously injured worker is still trapped in the crane operating console
of the exhaust stack and his breathing and pulse cannot be confirmed.
Currently, the rescue efforts are under way.
A worker was lightly injured spraining his left ankle and cutting both
knees when he fell while walking at the site. After medical treatment
and subsequent rest, the worker has got back his workplace.

Press Release (Mar 12,2011)
Occurrence of a Specific Incident Stipulated in Article 15, Clause 1 of the Act on Special Measures Concerning Nuclear Emergency Preparedness (Extraordinary increase of radiation dose at site boundary)


At2:46PM on March 11th, turbines and reactors of Tokyo Electric Power
Company's Fukushima Daiichi Nuclear Power Station Unit 1 (Boiling Water
Reactor, rated output 460 Megawatts) and Units 2 and 3 (Boiling Water
Reactor, Rated Output 784 Megawatts) that had been operating at rated
power automatically shutdown due to the Miyagiken-oki Earthquake.

After the shut down, the values of radioactive materials (iodine, etc)
measured by the monitoring car have been increasing. Increase in the
measured value has also been recognized in one of the monitoring posts.

Furthermore, today at 3:29PM, radiation dose measured at site boundary has
exceeded the limiting value. Therefore, at 4:17PM, it was determined that
a specific incident stipulated in article 15, clause 1 has occurred.

We will endeavor to secure the safety and alongside, continue monitoring
the environment of the site periphery.

Press Release (Mar 12,2011)
White smoke around the Fukushima Daiichi Nuclear Power Station Unit 1


On March 11, 2011, turbines and reactors of Fukushima Daiichi Nuclear
Power Station Unit 1(Boiling Water Reactor, Rated Output 460 MW) and
Unit 2 and 3 (Boiling Water Reactor, Rated Output 784 MW) that had been
operating at rated power automatically shutdown due to the
Tohoku-Chihou-Taiheiyou-Oki Earthquake.(already announced)

Today at approximately 3:36PM, a big quake occurred and there was a big
sound around the Unit 1 and white smoke.
Our two employees and two subcontract workers working for the safety of
the plant were injured and transported to the hospital.

We are presently checking on the site situation of each plant and effect
of discharged radioactive materials.

We will endeavor to restore the units and continue monitoring the
environment of the site periphery.

 

[Dr_Grip]

Greenpeace guy is giving the "you can't see it, you can't taste it" talk on TV now. I'm inclined to drive to Hamburg and beat him up.

 

[h-p]

Wikipedia says that we've got 17 active reactors in Germany, of which six are BWRs.

Getting bit off-topic, but yeah: Germany, Spain, Sweden, US, Japan. I don't know about USSR/Russia, but my trust for their safety isn't great, no matter what type.

 

[Dr_Grip]

Getting bit off-topic, but yeah: Germany, Spain, Sweden, US, Japan. I don't know about USSR/Russia, but my trust for their safety isn't great, no matter what type.

Russia still has ten RBMK (Chernobyl-type) reactors in operation, retrofitted with additonal safety measures, but still...

 

[Polly]

13:17 GMT: Stocking up on tinfoil hats.