Electric car sets new distance record - 600km on a single charge

[hansvonaxion]

If the tech doesn't suit Spectre's immediate needs, it's useless and logic be damned.

 

[Spectre]

Not exactly.

More like, does it at least do as much as the thing it's supposed to be replacing does? If the answer is no, it's useless.

Also, if you recall, I said that it might work in Europe (or elsewhere), but not over here. The Road Trip is too ingrained in society here, among other things.

Actually yes, from memory they both add up to 100 litres. So that adds up to around 10.4l/100km, which makes sense (for extra-urban driving anyway).

I think a decent range for a long-range electric car would be 400-500km, if it is to take only 5-10 minutes to recharge. Thats the same as many cars with normal sized fuel tanks

Well, my Crown Vic has a 72L/19 gallon tank (which is about normal for this size of car), and on that tank it can get about 760km before I have to stop and fuel up (assuming I don't have the pedal hard against the firewall, that is. ) Refuelling takes maybe five minutes at a normal pump. But even the current US-market Civic has a 13 gallon tank, which isn't all that much smaller.

 

[narf]

Actually yes, from memory they both add up to 100 litres. So that adds up to around 10.4l/100km, which makes sense (for extra-urban driving anyway).

Funnily enough my estate can make do with 55l to go 850km... and it's a petrol, not a diesel.

I think a decent range for a long-range electric car would be 400-500km, if it is to take only 5-10 minutes to recharge. Thats the same as many cars with normal sized fuel tanks

Charging batteries in 5-10 minutes will not work. Going 350km in a Tesla takes about 70kWh off the plug, more in a real car. Putting 70kWh into a battery in 10 minutes would not only require a 420kW plug (for reference, a 3x16A cooker plug delivers about 11kW, a massive 3x125A plug used for powering live concerts etc. delivers about 86kW. In other words, you would need five of those). It would also heat the battery tremendously, if not break it.

More like, does it at least do as much as the thing it's supposed to be replacing does? If the answer is no, it's useless.

It's not replacing ICE cars, much like a convertible is not replacing a lorry. If your driving pattern suits a battery vehicle, use it. If it doesn't, don't.

 

[MadCat360]

Not exactly.

More like, does it at least do as much as the thing it's supposed to be replacing does? If the answer is no, it's useless.

So... if you own a sniper rifle and you buy a shotgun it's useless, because the shotgun has shorter range?

 

[the Interceptor]

If the tech doesn't suit Spectre's immediate needs, it's useless and logic be damned.

Yesterday evening I already asked myself why I, again, posted in a thread like this at all. This can not end well, and the past has shown there is little point in discussing these things with Spectre. I'm done here. Narf: best of luck!

 

[Spectre]

So... if you own a sniper rifle and you buy a shotgun it's useless, because the shotgun has shorter range?

We're being told by the government, the media, and the makers that the BEV is a replacement in all respects for the 'normal' ICE car. I'm evaluating it accordingly.

I would say the same thing with the firearm analogy if the government, media and makers told me that I should buy a shotgun because it could replace my FAL in all respects; screw that, it's not.

Funnily enough my estate can make do with 55l to go 850km... and it's a petrol, not a diesel.

Your estate/wagon will fit in the XJ's trunk.

Charging batteries in 5-10 minutes will not work. Going 400km in a Tesla takes about 10kWh, more in a real car - let's say 15. Putting 15kWh into a battery in 10 minutes would not only require a 100kW plug (for reference, a 3x16A cooker plug delivers about 11kW, not even a 3x63A plug used on building sites, concerts, theatres etc. would suffice, you'd struggle with 3x125A). It would also heat the battery tremendously, if not break it.

This. Now, you can overcome this with the current generation of ultracapacitors.... but then, it wouldn't be a BEV any more, would it?

We're still waiting for the mythical superbattery that's going to solve all of the BEV's problems. I think we're going to be waiting for a while yet to come...

 

[narf]

We all know governments, media and manufacturers talk bullshit. That does not make me go down to the same level of bullshit when evaluating the technology.

 

[Spectre]

Hey, they're setting the expectation, so they should be evaluated against it.

 

[hansvonaxion]

The new XJ has worse range than your old one.

I don't anyone who's said they are currently a replacement, I'm sure many have said they will eventually be a replacement.

As of now they can be a replacement for some people, but not you.

 

[Spectre]

The new XJ has worse range than your old one.

My X300 has worse range, too, though not by much. Smaller tankage. The trade off for the X300 is that it's technically a better car, and it's better in most other respects than the S3.

The new XJ, I just don't want, as I feel it is worse than the car it replaces.

But even my little Pathfinder can make 520+km on a tank, and it's hideously inefficient. It's about as aerodynamic as a brick, the tire and wheel package makes it even worse, and it's a bit underpowered so it ends up with the throttle flat on the floor more than my other cars.

Edit: Let me throw this article in for additional food for thought: http://venturebeat.com/2010/09/16/f...n-texas-and-we-test-drive-fords-electric-car/ I'm not the only one looking askance at this.

 

[narf]

Hey, they're setting the expectation, so they should be evaluated against it.

Ok, we all agree their expectations are crap. Can we now move on to evaluating electric vehicles sort-of-objectively?



PS: I've updated my charging-in-10-minutes post, my memory of the Tesla's battery was quite off :lol: turns out you would need five 3x125A plugs to theoretically charge it fully within ten minutes. To visualize, one of these plugs is about 10cm in diameter, and you'd need five:

https://pic.armedcats.net/n/na/narf/2010/10/31/IMG_0317_1.jpg https://pic.armedcats.net/n/na/narf/2010/10/31/IMG_0317_1.jpg https://pic.armedcats.net/n/na/narf/2010/10/31/IMG_0317_1.jpg https://pic.armedcats.net/n/na/narf/2010/10/31/IMG_0317_1.jpg https://pic.armedcats.net/n/na/narf/2010/10/31/IMG_0317_1.jpg

 

[hansvonaxion]

Charging batteries in 5-10 minutes will not work. Going 350km in a Tesla takes about 70kWh off the plug, more in a real car. Putting 70kWh into a battery in 10 minutes would not only require a 420kW plug (for reference, a 3x16A cooker plug delivers about 11kW, a massive 3x125A plug used for powering live concerts etc. delivers about 86kW. In other words, you would need five of those). It would also heat the battery tremendously, if not break it.

How do the storage systems work into that scenario? I remember reading that here they have a fast charge system that uses batteries to store the charge. I believe they said 5min charge.

 

[Spectre]

How do the storage systems work into that scenario? I remember reading that here they have a fast charge system that uses batteries to store the charge. I believe they said 5min charge.

If they're using batteries to store a charge up while feeding at a lower rate, then doing a fast discharge into the car, those batteries aren't going to live terribly long either. There have been some capacitor based systems proposed that look interesting, but you better hope nobody accidentally short circuits them or that they don't get flooded and short out.

 

[narf]

How do the storage systems work into that scenario? I remember reading that here they have a fast charge system that uses batteries to store the charge. I believe they said 5min charge.

To me using batteries to charge batteries sounds like a bad idea. Might as well have two battery packs for your car and swap in your garage.
Got any source on that 5 minute charging system?

Many marketing promises of "charge your car in X minutes" are referring to a charge of some percentage, not a full charge. Something along the lines of "charge your car full enough to do an average daily commute in X minutes" would probably be more accurate but less appealing.

 

[Spectre]

To me using batteries to charge batteries sounds like a bad idea. Might as well have two battery packs for your car and swap in your garage.
Got any source on that 5 minute charging system?

Here's an article that links to one of them: http://reviews.cnet.com/8301-13746_7-20009762-48.html

The "recharge your Tesla in 5 minutes" thing turned out to be a "swap your battery pack" concept instead of an actual recharge, IIRC.

 

[hansvonaxion]

Sorry I'm typing from the phone. Computer is broken. It may have been half or 75% charge.

Thanks Spectre it was something like that.

That 600km range is more than an A3 petrol urban cycle.

 

[narf]

Here's an article that links to one of them: http://reviews.cnet.com/8301-13746_7-20009762-48.html

Weee, 50 miles of charge in 5 minutes. More marketing half-truths there :lol:

That 600km range is more than an A3 petrol urban cycle.

That's odd :lol: the 1.4 turbo A3 is quoted at 7.3l urban, which would be 753km. Obviously that is no real-world figure, but you should still beat 600 in the real world. Hell, my estate petrol does 785km per tank on average, 850+ when careful.

capacitor based systems

The main problem I see with capacitors is $/J, or cost per capacity.
One of the new ultracapacitors at 5000F and 2.7V costs $175. 5000F and 2.7V means it can store 5Wh, you'd need 200 of them to store one kWh. That'd be $35000.

 

[Spectre]

Weee, 50 miles of charge in 5 minutes. More marketing half-truths there :lol:

No kidding. Of course, IIRC, the car they're talking about charging doesn't have much more range than that even if you slow charge it, soo....

Hans, I'm using the highway cycle for comparison, as the original post's range was also declared by highway usage. And even the thirstiest Civic sold over here can squeak out 600km before running dry on the highway.

 

[hansvonaxion]

Oz doesn't get the 1.4 I used the 2L. It's also better than Fiesta 1.6 urban, just saying.

I used urban because that's where these cars are supposed to be used an those figures are not real world whereas this was an actual run on public roads, real world.

 

[narf]

Oz doesn't get the 1.4 I used the 2L.

According to Audi Australia they do.