fastest(straight line wise) f1 car of all times

MadCow809

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Is it the 2004 spec F1? I'm guessing this because most of the current lap records are set by either Montoya, Kimi or Schumi in a 2004 F1 car.

If thats the case, what about the straight line speed/acceleration of the turbo F1 era? 1500bhp during qualifying sounds very strong on paper, but can the acceleration of a turbo F1 car match a modern day F1 with the slick sequential gearbox???
 
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vikiradTG2007

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Well, until Montoya's 2002 quali lap in Monza and the subsequent lap records set there in 2003 and 2004, Keke Rosberg's single lap of Silverstone (1:05.591) remained the fastest average speed over one lap ever set by a F1 car. The thing is that the turbo monsters didn't have the sophisticated suspension geometries of the modern F1 cars, they relied basically only on the front and rear wings to generate downforce (the overhanging gearboxes filled up the space now used for the diffuser) and had much less grippy tires: I guess that today's tires are as durable as the hardest compounds from the late '80s and grippier than the qualifying tires that they used.

And power isn't everything: it's also how the cars were using it. With 1500bhp on tap, the drivers were constantly fighting tons of wheelspin right up to 4th gear (out of 5 or 6); Mansell once said that he had actually experienced wheelspin in 6th at Monza. The power band of the modern F1 engines is designed for better control of the 780-800bhp that the modern engines deliver.

So yeah, I guess that the 2004 cars will remain the fastest ever on most tracks. Well... except Suzuka, where in 2005 Alonso, with a 1:31.599, and then Raikkonen, with a 1:31.540, devastated the 2004 lap record during their charges from the rear of the grid.
 

MadCow809

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Well, until Montoya's 2002 quali lap in Monza and the subsequent lap records set there in 2003 and 2004, Keke Rosberg's single lap of Silverstone (1:05.591) remained the fastest average speed over one lap ever set by a F1 car. The thing is that the turbo monsters didn't have the sophisticated suspension geometries of the modern F1 cars, they relied basically only on the front and rear wings to generate downforce (the overhanging gearboxes filled up the space now used for the diffuser) and had much less grippy tires: I guess that today's tires are as durable as the hardest compounds from the late '80s and grippier than the qualifying tires that they used.

And power isn't everything: it's also how the cars were using it. With 1500bhp on tap, the drivers were constantly fighting tons of wheelspin right up to 4th gear (out of 5 or 6); Mansell once said that he had actually experienced wheelspin in 6th at Monza. The power band of the modern F1 engines is designed for better control of the 780-800bhp that the modern engines deliver.

So yeah, I guess that the 2004 cars will remain the fastest ever on most tracks. Well... except Suzuka, where in 2005 Alonso, with a 1:31.599, and then Raikkonen, with a 1:31.540, devastated the 2004 lap record during their charges from the rear of the grid.


Pretty much what I expected. Obviously the cornering speed will be significantly faster in a modern F1 car, which is why I've left that out in my first post.

But what about gear to gear acceleartion on a straight line? Let's leave the wheelspin out of the equation, just for argument sake. Do you think they(turbo F1) are the fastest acceleratin F1 car of all times?
 

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Are you talking about theoretically archievable numbers or cars with racing setups that actually were used?
 

MadCow809

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theoretically archievable numbers, we all know the facts and stats of past F1 cars.
 

vikiradTG2007

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Well... I guess the more power and less drag, the faster you can go. Theoretically, if its engine stays in one piece, a turbo monster might easily peak 400kph on a long enough straight, for example, on the chicane-less Mulsanne/Hunaudieres, if you minimized the wings, got the gearing right and set the engine to full boost. The 2004/2005 cars would be next in line, since the P84 and P85 BMW V10s were close to the 1000bhp barrier.
 

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vikiradTG2007

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According to Wiki, the most powerful F1 car ever was the '86 Benetton-BMW of Gerhard Berger with an estimated 1350 hp. I didn't find any top speeds though.

Some people say that, during dyno runs, the Renault EF15 engine (the 1986 turbo) was recorded at some 1700bhp. But I guess that at the boost pressure needed for that amount of power, the engine blew up after around 5 minutes...
 

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if we're talking straight line speed, didn't the 2005 honda f1 car touch 400KM/H at bonneville salt flats?

edit: found at wikipedia that he (alan van der merwe) reached 410KM/h.
 

vikiradTG2007

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if we're talking straight line speed, didn't the 2005 honda f1 car touch 400KM/H at bonneville salt flats?

edit: found at wikipedia that he (alan van der merwe) reached 410KM/h.

Wasn't homologated, because they didn't do a return run. But the car was virtually the same as the normal F1 car, except for a rudder-type rear fin instead of the wing and long gearing.
 

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In theoretical numbers, the Turbo engines of the 80's will always win, hands down. In race spec they could push between 1200-1500 bhp, and in qually spec they would range from 1500-1900 bhp.

That is absolutely staggering. The highest speed achieved, as Werner pointed out, was around 400 km/h, done by Honda (which is not nearly the most powerful car, nor the most aero efficient car on the grid).

I'd say to get the highest top speed out of 08 cars, you want the BMW engine inside a Ferrari or McLaren chassis.

It would be interesting to see, that is for sure.
 

marcos_eirik

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According to Wiki, the most powerful F1 car ever was the '86 Benetton-BMW of Gerhard Berger with an estimated 1350 hp. I didn't find any top speeds though.
Yes, that's true. The 1986 Benetton BMW B186 powered by the BMW M13 engine is the most powerful F1 car to date. The official figure is 1300 hp at 5,5 bar of boost in qualifying spec engine. During the race this was reduced to 3,6 bar and 850 hp with the race engine (High powered road cars use about 1 bar) It is believed that it might have had as much as 1500 hp in qualifying spec late in the season at the Mexican GP, where Gerhard Berger apparently experienced wheelspin in 6th gear at 345 km/h. BMW's engine boss in those days, Paul Rosche said that they really tried everything to get more power from the engine, they welded the wastegates, and sprayed the intercoolers with dry ice right before they went out to do qualifying for instance. The result of this was that the engine usually expired after about three laps, just enough to qualify. After that the engine was useless and had to be completely rebuilt, just like a Top Fuel dragster. For instance, the bearings in the turbo melted, so that if the engine lost rpm, and thus exhaust pressure, the turbine would weld in place.

BenettonB186.jpg


BenettonB186m.jpg


Brabhammotor.jpg


More about BMW F1 Turbo cars here, Brabham BMW here, Ferrari F1 87/88
 

pfrocker

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God that thing is scary.
 

vikiradTG2007

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God that thing is scary.

You should ask Gerhard Berger or Teo Fabi how scary it actually was... Apparently that engine had massive power, but doubled by massive turbo lag.

As James Hunt said:

"With a turbo engine, when you press the throttle... the first thing that happens is NOTHING, and then the second thing that happens is EVERYTHING."
 

MadCow809

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Some people say that, during dyno runs, the Renault EF15 engine (the 1986 turbo) was recorded at some 1700bhp. But I guess that at the boost pressure needed for that amount of power, the engine blew up after around 5 minutes...

Well pretty much so. The BMW 1.5L engine that was producing up to 1300~1500bhp during qualifying, but they almost never ever run the engine on full boost during a race.
 

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There is a great quote in a book I have from Derek Warwick. Monza qualifying 1985 in the Brabham I think. 1300bhp and seven speed box. Apparently it would just not stop accelerating, 5th and 6th were no different from 1st and 2nd. Absolutely on the limit until the engine decided to disintegrate coming out of Parabolica. Would love to get my hands on the footage of the 1984/85/86 qualifying sessions.

Brave Brave men.
 

MadCow809

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There is a great quote in a book I have from Derek Warwick. Monza qualifying 1985 in the Brabham I think. 1300bhp and seven speed box. Apparently it would just not stop accelerating, 5th and 6th were no different from 1st and 2nd. Absolutely on the limit until the engine decided to disintegrate coming out of Parabolica. Would love to get my hands on the footage of the 1984/85/86 qualifying sessions.

Brave Brave men.

I've got the whole season of 85 and 84, and it doesn't look all that fast compared to the modern day F1.

here is a qualifying lap of Senna in '86

[YOUTUBE]http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=E8-41tzKOyA[/YOUTUBE]
 
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I believe F1 cars have about 4 times the drag of a normal car, so the fact they get up to 200mph is commendable.
 

marcos_eirik

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Senna qualifying in the JPS Lotus 98T for the 1985 Australian GP, the first ever at Adelaide. Commentary by James Hunt and Murray Walker.

[YOUTUBE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8c0o697F1g8[/YOUTUBE]
 
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