Feds opening investigation into Florida teen killing

Momentum57

worships the 2010 Prius like a god
Joined
Aug 26, 2005
Messages
3,483
Location
Denver, CO
Car(s)
It's A HONDA! Clarity Plug In Electric
I was being sarcastic. Turns out Zimmerman is like young hispanic superman without a disguise.

Turns out that juror was right about him being a helpful guy
 
Last edited:

Spectre

The Deported
Joined
Feb 1, 2007
Messages
36,871
Location
Dallas, Texas
Car(s)
00 4Runner | 02 919 | 87 XJ6 | 86 CB700SC
I was being sarcastic. Turns out Zimmerman is like young hispanic superman without a disguise.

I wouldn't say he was young any more, especially after he got run through the justice system like that. :p
 

Momentum57

worships the 2010 Prius like a god
Joined
Aug 26, 2005
Messages
3,483
Location
Denver, CO
Car(s)
It's A HONDA! Clarity Plug In Electric
And yet he is still out on the street looking out for others. You think that he would be bitter at society.
 

Spectre

The Deported
Joined
Feb 1, 2007
Messages
36,871
Location
Dallas, Texas
Car(s)
00 4Runner | 02 919 | 87 XJ6 | 86 CB700SC
He was probably told to do some community service to get rid of the negative attention. He's still a murderer.

Soooo, he somehow arranged for a truck to conveniently roll over in front of him, injuring others, and then helped rescue someone all in order to 'improve his public image' yet somehow forgot to tell the media about it?
 

Momentum57

worships the 2010 Prius like a god
Joined
Aug 26, 2005
Messages
3,483
Location
Denver, CO
Car(s)
It's A HONDA! Clarity Plug In Electric
Ya we would have shot them all because that's what gun laws say.:lol:
 

ScarFace88

Forum Addict
Joined
Jul 12, 2012
Messages
7,368
Location
Central Floriderp
Car(s)
'00 CVPI, '88 Integra, '05 GTO
Well, it looks like George Zimmerman can handle a car accident better than Ted Kennedy.
 

kunedog

Active Member
Joined
Aug 6, 2007
Messages
310
He was probably told to do some community service to get rid of the negative attention. He's still a murderer.

Please stop. IMO the "justice for trayvon" crowd is badly misguided, but you're making them look downright delusional.
 

Wizegui

Well-Known Member
Joined
May 3, 2006
Messages
2,466
Location
Richmond, BC
Car(s)
'93 Toyota Tercel, '01 Swagger Wagon
From what I have read thus far, it seems that the only evidence that was present in the trial was an eye witness who say Trayvon Martin beating the crap out of Zimmerman and injuries that correspond with Zimmerman's stories. The FBI themselves found NO evidence of Zimmerman being even remotely close to a racist. Whether you agree or disagree with the verdict, based on the facts provided, the shooting was an act of self defense.
 

_HighVoltage_

Captain Volvo
Joined
Aug 5, 2006
Messages
9,964
Car(s)
1998 Volvo S70 T5M
The FBI themselves found NO evidence of Zimmerman being even remotely close to a racist. Whether you agree or disagree with the verdict, based on the facts provided, the shooting was an act of self defense.

Why does everyone keep bringing this up as if the FBI or the Police are the holy grail of judging things that are subjective at best. Yes, Spectre may say that I'm talking about feelings again, but that's okay - when we are talking about race we can never be fully objective.

I liked LeVeL's summary of the events a couple of posts earlier and I think it is pretty accurate. Just to clarify, my objections are toward the "Zimmerman found Martin suspicious" stage. We've already established why - because there had been several burglaries in the neighborhood all committed by black people. Statistically, he had good reason for suspicion. But that tells me something else - if I were a white burglar this is the best neighborhood to rob, because nobody would suspect me (see the video with the bike someone posted a few pages ago).

But that's okay - it's statistics...they are supposed to be objective. Same thing with border security - they tend to focus on Hispanics because they "look like they could be illegal." White people are rarely suspected of being illegal.

However, here is my problem - let's consider the mass shootings in the last several years all committed by white males in their 20s. When was the last time you heard about a neighborhood watch volunteer call the police to report a suspicious-looking young white male because he looks like he might be a mass shooter of kids? Isn't it statistically accurate so far?
 

Spectre

The Deported
Joined
Feb 1, 2007
Messages
36,871
Location
Dallas, Texas
Car(s)
00 4Runner | 02 919 | 87 XJ6 | 86 CB700SC
Why does everyone keep bringing this up as if the FBI or the Police are the holy grail of judging things that are subjective at best. Yes, Spectre may say that I'm talking about feelings again, but that's okay - when we are talking about race we can never be fully objective.

I liked LeVeL's summary of the events a couple of posts earlier and I think it is pretty accurate. Just to clarify, my objections are toward the "Zimmerman found Martin suspicious" stage. We've already established why - because there had been several burglaries in the neighborhood all committed by black people. Statistically, he had good reason for suspicion. But that tells me something else - if I were a white burglar this is the best neighborhood to rob, because nobody would suspect me (see the video with the bike someone posted a few pages ago).

But that's okay - it's statistics...they are supposed to be objective. Same thing with border security - they tend to focus on Hispanics because they "look like they could be illegal." White people are rarely suspected of being illegal.

However, here is my problem - let's consider the mass shootings in the last several years all committed by white males in their 20s. When was the last time you heard about a neighborhood watch volunteer call the police to report a suspicious-looking young white male because he looks like he might be a mass shooter of kids? Isn't it statistically accurate so far?

Hassan and Cho were white? News to me.

You seriously need to read this article: http://frontpagemag.com/2013/dgreen...as-70-percent-of-mass-shooters-are-white-men/ Bottom line: As you might expect, the ethnic makeup of mass shooters is pretty close to the Census-derived ethnic makeup of the US.

Also, suspicious looking young white males are reported to the police by neighborhood watch volunteers all the time. As potential pedophiles.

Also, you seem to be missing the point quite a lot. Zimmerman was initially (apparently) unsure of the race of Martin, as if you listen to the dispatcher recording when the operator asks what race the person is, he hesitates and says that the man looks black. He's not even definitive about the guy's race, he's not yelling YES HE'S BLACK BLACK BLACK; he is clearly not sure. In fact, despite the horribly edited by NBC audiotape (later proven to be doctored) Zimmerman never identifies or speculates the man's race until prompted to by the operator. Again, I cannot suggest strongly enough that you read this article by the outfit that exposed NBC's chicanery and got them to apologize plus fire at least one of the people responsible: http://newsbusters.org/blogs/matthe...lls-viewers-it-smeared-zimmerman-doctored-aud

How?s this for chutzpah: On the June 10 Today, did a segment on the difficult process of jury selection for the George Zimmerman trial, given the highly publicized racial issues surrounding the case. NBC?s Carl Quintanilla asked ?Today? Legal Expert Lisa Bloom, ?Has media coverage already influenced this jury??

Yes it has, and NBC has more to answer for than most. For a full week in March, 2012 NBC ?Nightly News? and ?Today,? along with its local Miami affiliate ran audio tape of George Zimmerman?s 911 call the night he fatally shot Trayvon Martin. NBC viewers learned that Zimmerman had said to the 911 dispatcher, ?This guy looks like he?s up to no good. He looks black.?

That was pretty damning evidence of racial profiling. It was also an entirely false representation of the 911 conversation. Someone at NBC had edited the tape to make Zimmerman appear racist. The unedited sequence of the call went like this:

Zimmerman: ?This guy looks like he?s up to no good. Or he?s on drugs or something. It?s raining and he?s just walking around, looking about.?

Dispatcher: ?OK, and this guy ? is he black, white or Hispanic??

Zimmerman: ?He looks black.?

You keep getting hung up on race when what apparently drew Zimmerman's attention was the clothing combined with suspicious behavior. It appears from the phone transcript that Zimmerman would have also reported a white guy, a Hispanic guy or an Asian guy wearing the same clothes (remember, the description of the burglars was of multiple events so it wasn't just 'black males in hoodies' for all events but 'men in hoodies, race unknown' per witness reports at some of the burglaries so it could have been any race) and behaving similarly.

Finally, it should be pointed out that many of Zimmerman's neighbors at the time were black, so it wasn't unusual to see black persons walking in the area, something else that puts a torpedo in your hypothesis based on feeeeeeeeeeeeeelings.
 
Last edited:

_HighVoltage_

Captain Volvo
Joined
Aug 5, 2006
Messages
9,964
Car(s)
1998 Volvo S70 T5M
It still doesn't make it okay that a man would be suspected to be a criminal, and consequently shot, based on the way he dresses and the fact that he was "loitering." Neither of these is explicitly racist, but because of societal expectations and norms, certain races and their cultural habits are at a disadvantage.

Where we seem to disagree is what exactly made Martin look suspicious and why. We will never know that because it's all based on Zimmerman's story and a few "facts." I use quotation marks because as we discussed earlier, loitering is not considered a crime (at least in its U.S. definition) in many other countries. In the US, it is a law, and has been accepted as a fact, but it is a subjective fact. The "fact" that Martin looked suspicious is what we are debating. His mannerisms and behavior apparently made him so. Are they strictly guided by his race? Probably not entirely, but we are all in some way guided by our own race and cultural upbringing.

Was he dressed like a burglar or other type of criminal? How does one dress like a burglar? We have certain stereotypes about this sort of thing, and while I do agree with you that often stereotypes exist for a reason, in this case the stereotype failed. You can't change the fact that prior to Zimmerman's involvement Martin was neither a burglar nor a criminal. When he attacked Zimmerman he became one. But had Zimmerman stayed away and hadn't suspected Martin in the first place, there would have been no crime, and nobody would have died. But apparently Martin was dressed the "wrong" way and was walking around the wrong neighborhood.
 

Spectre

The Deported
Joined
Feb 1, 2007
Messages
36,871
Location
Dallas, Texas
Car(s)
00 4Runner | 02 919 | 87 XJ6 | 86 CB700SC
So if the police get and publicize reports that men wearing, say, clown suits have been burgling local homes and businesses as well as performing other criminal acts in a specific area, nobody should ever report someone wearing a clown suit even if they are acting suspiciously? That's pretty much what you're saying, that despite the existence of a specific set of descriptions of persons wanted for multiple crimes in an area, you should never ever stop or question or suspect someone acting odd and fitting the descriptions.

How do you dress like a criminal or burglar? Dress exactly like the descriptions of persons committing crimes or burglaries (but I repeat myself) in an area. If the KKK are running around burgling houses and assaulting people in a specific part of town, then getting away before the police arrive, it might not be a good idea to go wander around outside in that area wearing a white conical hat and a bed sheet with eyeholes cut out of it.

It should also be pointed out that if someone has their hands in their pockets and the hood up on their hoodie, it is not easy to tell their race. If the hood is pulled down low, you may not be able to tell even if they are looking straight at you in daylight. This encounter was at night and it's highly likely that Zimmerman's suspicions were aroused long before he could make out the race of the man under the hoodie.

Further, you do not know that Martin would *not* have committed a crime if left alone any more than someone could know he would. It may be germane to mention that he was found (and consequently suspended) at school with a backpack full of probably stolen jewelry that he refused to even attempt to prove was his and claimed it belonged to an unidentified 'friend' - links to this are upthread.
 
Last edited:

prizrak

Forum Addict
Joined
Apr 2, 2007
Messages
21,601
Location
No, sleep, till, BROOKLYN
Car(s)
11 Xterra Pro-4x, 12 'stang GT
HV, dude hoodies are pretty much a criminal uniform in our society, ESPECIALLY black hoodies. I can't be arsed to look right now but I remember some ad a number of years ago where a white guy puts on a hoodie pulls the hood down low and while pretending to be a jogger breaks into some house. This isn't race based so get the fuck over it. Also you wouldn't think that someone just walking around in circles at night in the rain would be at the very least odd? I personally would at least take notice, a neighborhood watchman's job is to report suspicious activity, that's literally the only reason they exist...
 

Spectre

The Deported
Joined
Feb 1, 2007
Messages
36,871
Location
Dallas, Texas
Car(s)
00 4Runner | 02 919 | 87 XJ6 | 86 CB700SC
It should also be pointed out that criminals think people loitering on corners wearing certain articles of clothing are also criminals. And then they open fire.

http://gangsorus.com/gang_clothing.html

Wandering around in certain neighborhoods in LA wearing garments that show your support for the Oakland Raiders or LA Kings sports teams will get you shot, no questions asked - and not because the people there are fans of rival teams or hate those teams. I saw enough of that growing up there.

This then goes back to my prior post about the motorcycle shop, which you chose not to answer. Since race was not an issue with the hoodist that came up to the motorcycle shop, almost all the participants being black and of similar socioeconomic and cultural condition, what *possible* reason could those black men have had for thinking the young black man was suspicious before he ever did something? Are you still going to try to claim it was somehow racial?
 
Last edited:

prizrak

Forum Addict
Joined
Apr 2, 2007
Messages
21,601
Location
No, sleep, till, BROOKLYN
Car(s)
11 Xterra Pro-4x, 12 'stang GT
To add to the above, I have a couple of black hoodies. One of them in particular has a very minimal design and is generally pretty baggy, people regard me with visible suspicion when I wear it, same thing doesn't happen when I wear my normal clothes (which are usually paramilitary looking at that).
 

Momentum57

worships the 2010 Prius like a god
Joined
Aug 26, 2005
Messages
3,483
Location
Denver, CO
Car(s)
It's A HONDA! Clarity Plug In Electric
Why does everyone keep bringing this up as if the FBI or the Police are the holy grail of judging things that are subjective at best.

People bring up the FBI report because they are not independent. The FBI is the Dept. of Justice representative tasked with finding racial bias.

It still doesn't make it okay that a man would be suspected to be a criminal, and consequently shot, based on the way he dresses and the fact that he was "loitering." Neither of these is explicitly racist, but because of societal expectations and norms, certain races and their cultural habits are at a disadvantage.

Strangely racist of you here; there are no cultural habits that I am aware of in black culture that makes blacks wander in the rain. Your ascribing cultural significance to specific behavior: like saying blacks go jogging in jeans and timberland boots that?s why police don't understand why they are running from the police, they are just jogging. You're either being naive or attempting to overcompensate for perceived racist tendencies.

I use quotation marks because as we discussed earlier, loitering is not considered a crime. The "fact" that Martin looked suspicious is what we are debating. His mannerisms and behavior apparently made him so. Are they strictly guided by his race? Probably not entirely, but we are all in some way guided by our own race and cultural upbringing.

True, I agree that there are racial and cultural guidestones that we subscribe to mostly without knowing. However, I don't think that Trayvon Martin was displaying any, other than a propensity for watermelon, when loitering in the area. W.E.B. Dubois called it "second sight" the ability to "see" what whites see of blacks but also what whites see in themselves. I always think of this in these incidents there is a wave of "burden of white non-racism" comes out. In white culture there are examples of ?the imaginary better me? Fight Club, American Beauty, Up In The Air. That deep down whites are fine that there is a system that actually forces us to be the oppressor.

That given the opportunity the white ?imaginary better me? can be made manifest by white outrage on behalf of blacks. From time to time the white culture serves up a testament to our non-racism. An aggrieved entitlement inherited from brutality thus I must demonstrate my value by apology. Such examples like Mississippi Burning then after the movie we dragged out that old racist murder like a little gift.

I clip your quote for space but you mentioned white shooters which is interesting. Black shooters are often said to suffer from ?socio-economic problems? culture, environment, economy. In Chicago a dozen or so people were shot, one died in front of a club, the shooters are thought to be gang related. The thought is that white culture has oppressed black culture creating a second society that, economically disadvantaged, must turn to crimes such as murder.

White shooters are often said to suffer from mental illness; that the problem was specific to them, and not us. Do we ignore the idea that black shooters are mentally ill because their community is broken through racism? Or are we ignoring social issues in white culture by claiming mentally illness, thus escaping community vilification?
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: TC

TC

aka TomCat
Joined
Dec 11, 2005
Messages
11,436
Does anyone else find it more than a bit ironic that people are so obsessed with doing away with Stand Your Ground laws and even people like Stevie Wonder are boycotting Florida over it?

Not just because it was irrelevant to the court case, but because if there was no gun involved that evening and Trayvon survived, he probably would have been arrested and charged with assault. And the only thing standing between him and a jail cell, criminal record, and perpetuating an ignorant stereotype, would have been a strong Stand Your Ground defense. Right?

Of course, I'm no lawyer. Just a thought.
 
Last edited:
Top