Ferrari Leave Formula 1

Peter3hg

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^If this change happens as it is now we will be down to 4 team by next year.

I don't get the do or die attitude, if the teams resist the current plan, it most mean that it makes financial sense to spend as much money as they do. Therefore, the financial crisis can't really be used as an argument to force this matter through the way FIA is doing it now.

You have to take it in steps. Why not see if they can agree on a 100 mil. budget cap for everyone this year, and then maybe work their way down to lower levels?

FIA are ruining F1 as much as the teams are. They are the ones in control, they should have made sure a long time ago that it wouldn't come to this. They can't just realize that now, and fuck over all the current big teams, who have been in the sport for ages.
None of the teams are serious about pulling out, and neither are the FIA serious about bringing this in as it stands. They make these wild threats, have a nice meeting, and settle on a compromise. It is just how negotiations work.
The problem with a ?100m budget is that the new teams won't come (apart from USGPE) and you will probably still lose Renault and Toyota. I think even a ?60m limit would scare away teams such as Prodrive and Lola because they wouldn't be able to afford to be competitive.
A budget is pointless unless it is low enough so that all teams can afford it, or at least get close to being able to afford it.
The FIA couldn't have sorted this out earlier. They would never have had a hope in hell in introducing any kind of limit on spending a few years back when the manufacturers could afford to throw hundreds of millions at it.
In all fairness to the FIA, they have done all they could to limit costs such as freezing engine developments and limiting testing, although they have done weird things like add KERS which raises costs.
 

ViperVX

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My guess that FIA will partially back down, and previously announced FOTA measures to cut costs will be accepted, they include reducing race length to 250km, universal parts, do away with refueling, do away with expensive metals and minor stuff. However FIA's plans to allow engine upgrades/remove limiter/unlimited engines and more powerful KERS will be abolished, and there will be no budget limit in any form that may involve the actual spending control, in any way shape or form except "control via technical regulations".

Nobody in F1 cares about USF1 or Prodrive; Williams, India and Brawns are still not that popular, so they'll have to find the money somewhere. We'll find answers to all these questions on friday night.

Personally i am in fovour of 7 teams seceding and creating an alternative.
 
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Peter3hg

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My guess that FIA will partially back down, and previously announced FOTA measures to cut costs will be accepted, they include reducing race length to 250km, universal parts, do away with refueling, do away with expensive metals and minor stuff. However FIA's plans to allow engine upgrades/remove limiter/unlimited engines and more powerful KERS will be abolished, and there will be no budget limit in any form that may involve the actual spending control, in any way shape or form except "control via technical regulations".
You want shorter races and universal parts? That to me is an infinitely worse idea than the FIA's. Even if the universal bits are just things like brakes and gearboxes, it still isn't something I want. Give the teams relatively lax regulations and a budget, and that'll make me a happy man.
Personally I care far more for small teams that have to be innovative, than big teams who can just spend their way out of trouble. It would be a shame to lose Ferrari but really the team is a shadow of its former self, even compared to what it was 5 years ago.
 

vikiradTG2007

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It would be a shame to lose Ferrari but really the team is a shadow of its former self, even compared to what it was 5 years ago.

No matter how Ferrari is doing, the Italians will continue to watch F1 as long as Ferrari is in it.

Lose Ferrari, you also lose a major name and a major slice of audience. The whole of Italy will lose all interest in F1.
 

Cellos88GT

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No matter how Ferrari is doing, the Italians will continue to watch F1 as long as Ferrari is in it.

Lose Ferrari, you also lose a major name and a major slice of audience. The whole of Italy will lose all interest in F1.
Yup. Don't forget Saudi Arabia, Qatar, UAE, and Bahrain.
 

Peter3hg

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No matter how Ferrari is doing, the Italians will continue to watch F1 as long as Ferrari is in it.

Lose Ferrari, you also lose a major name and a major slice of audience. The whole of Italy will lose all interest in F1.
I wasn't actually talking about the teams results. I was more saying that the team seems to have no passion these days and is basically just like any old team. The specialness has gone. Obviously Ferrari going would lose some audience but nowhere near the figures some people are throwing around (50%). I doubt the loss would be anywhere near 10% of the worldwide audience.
The teams starting there own series (GP1 or something) is attractive, but it would last for a few years before the in fighting between the teams would kill it. You need an omnipresent body to rule over it all, and that sometimes involves making unpopular decisions.
Ferrari isn't bigger than F1. If they (and Renault, BMW etc) need to be sacrificed for the good of the sport then so be it. I would prefer to have a full field of small competitive teams than a few big manufacturers being dominant year on year with the small teams running a long way behind.
I fail to see why Ferrari couldn't stay in anyway, even if in a smaller role. Divert most of their attention to LMS or whatever but keep the ?40m F1 program on the side. Then they could have a well funded LMP1 program and run in F1 all at the same time, for the same money.
 

vikiradTG2007

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The teams starting there own series (GP1 or something) is attractive, but it would last for a few years before the in fighting between the teams would kill it. You need an omnipresent body to rule over it all, and that sometimes involves making unpopular decisions.
There is a need for a strong governing body, but the FIA is proving time and again that it is more and more unsuited to running F1. P.S. GP1 has been trademarked by Bernie in a secret deal which slipped his lips for a microsecond and was reported immediately by Pitpass after confirming that GP1 has indeed been registered by CVC.

I would prefer to have a full field of small competitive teams than a few big manufacturers being dominant year on year with the small teams running a long way behind.
I'm sorry, the last time that happened was in the 1970s. 4 teams, in various incarnations, have won nearly every GP from 1984 to 2006.

I fail to see why Ferrari couldn't stay in anyway, even if in a smaller role. Divert most of their attention to LMS or whatever but keep the ?40m F1 program on the side. Then they could have a well funded LMP1 program and run in F1 all at the same time, for the same money.
LMP1 and F1 regulations don't have all that much in common. They need to share some more elements than they do now in order to have a F1 program and an LMP program running side-by-side, because that would enable expertise to flow from one side to another more smoothly and with less spending on development.
 

Peter3hg

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LMP1 and F1 regulations don't have all that much in common. They need to share some more elements than they do now in order to have a F1 program and an LMP program running side-by-side, because that would enable expertise to flow from one side to another more smoothly and with less spending on development.
I don't think it matters. Run the two teams completely separately. Just have ?40m of expertise running the F1 team (like every other team will have to) and use the rest to fund LMP1. Obviously you could share the odd engine or aerodynamics expert.

I'm sorry, the last time that happened was in the 1970s. 4 teams, in various incarnations, have won nearly every GP from 1984 to 2006.
Undoubtedly, but I think F1 has been broken anyway since at least the early 90's. The introduction of mega money has slowly ruined it. Killed by its own success if you will.
 

vikiradTG2007

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Undoubtedly, but I think F1 has been broken anyway since at least the early 90's. The introduction of mega money has slowly ruined it. Killed by its own success if you will.
I'd say rather killed by "kicking all their sorry ar$es into professionalism", which is one of the old catchphrases of "dear" ol' Bernard.
 

Cellos88GT

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I would prefer to have a full field of small competitive teams than a few big manufacturers being dominant year on year with the small teams running a long way behind.
Then why don't you try following the GP2 series?

I fail to see why Ferrari couldn't stay in anyway, even if in a smaller role. Divert most of their attention to LMS or whatever but keep the ?40m F1 program on the side. Then they could have a well funded LMP1 program and run in F1 all at the same time, for the same money.
I would love to see Ferrari get back into prototype racing but, I don't see it happening anytime soon. F1 is a big business for Ferrari the LMP1 program wouldn't reap them the same benefits as F1, not even close.
 

Cellos88GT

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LMP1 has been reaping enormous benefits for Audi for... oh, the last decade.
I'm not saying that it isn't possible to reap benefits. But, I think Ferrari makes more money via F1 merchandise than Audi does with their LMP1 merchandise. F1 has a far greater global footprint than LMP1, even though that is about to change.
 

Peter3hg

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You have to look in a lot of places to do that. Primarily F1 and its feeders, but also in other classes. Endurance racing and the top LMP1 and LMP2s especially.
I think the cream usually rises to the top. We have less paying drivers these days so most are there on their own merit. Obviously rallying and closed wheel racing has drivers who can match a lot of F1 drivers, but I find open wheel racing more enjoyable to watch.
F1 certainly has a higher concentration of world-class drivers than any other discipline.
 

vikiradTG2007

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I think the cream usually rises to the top. We have less paying drivers these days so most are there on their own merit. Obviously rallying and closed wheel racing has drivers who can match a lot of F1 drivers, but I find open wheel racing more enjoyable to watch.
F1 certainly has a higher concentration of world-class drivers than any other discipline.
The increase in standards and demands now is the thing that splits the cream, as it were... I mean, we still only have a single driver who has ever completed the Triple Crown of Motorsport (Indy 500 winner, F1 WDC or Monaco winner, 24h of Le Mans winner).
 

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It doesn't now. But my question is... can a current-day F1 driver go there and beat the establishment? I'm rather certain the answer would be a "no".
Still much more likely than any Indycar driver coming to F1 and beating the establishment.

I don't think it matters. Run the two teams completely separately. Just have ?40m of expertise running the F1 team (like every other team will have to) and use the rest to fund LMP1. Obviously you could share the odd engine or aerodynamics expert.
Sounds simple when you put it like that but remember, we are talking about massive scale here. The budget reduction we are talking about here with biggest teams is in excess of 300 million dollars. Reorganising an operation like this down to one tenth of what it currently is takes a lot more time than what the teams have for next year, and despite the fact that it is damn nearly impossible FIA says if they . Just the study to see whether LMP programme would be good use of money will take time.
 
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