For Americans wondering "Why the hate?", some answers from PBS

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i am glad your health care system works in your country . the problem is that that does not necessarily mean it would work here . norway is a smaller country , and yes that matters . fewer barbarians at the gate to take advantage of the system but i think that norway has less alcoholics , drug addicts . you would be amazed the frequency of hospitalization and expense for some of these people . the shiftless , people who are nothing but a drag on society . it seems that norway has fewer of these problems . frankly , norway seems cleaner .

Oh the scandinavian countries still have alcholics and people who are nothing but a drag on society by using the system to live a comfortable life, but we all have these extensive social welfare protections to make sure that people who get into a slump are able to get up on their feet again, much easier than what it would be in say the US.
This also extends to healthcare, making it not free, but putting a limit on how much one person is expected to pay on her or his own, before the state will pay the rest of the bill.
This of course costs alot of tax money but it's not like scandinavians are starving on the streets now is it.

I think the US has so many criminals and outcasts by being a country with a big lack of social equality, which feeds hopelessness in the minds of the poorest people and convices them that criminal acts are okay because that's the only way to get ahead in life.

(I so much finnish the stupid book (atlas shrugged) and see if they ever give an answer to that question (who is John Galt), it's getting annoying but so is her views on socialism...)
 
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If I have a beef with the American health care system, its that no one knows what anything costs. And then, after the care, they come up with some absurd number. And I don't even care if whatever procedure they used is expensive.

The problem is, if you get a bill for 100k and don't have insurance, you end up paying that amount. If you're an insurance company, you negotiate that number down to a more realistic cost (and the individual covered by insurance goes around thinking... wow, that insurance just saved me 100k).
 
Ventura You can bargain with them. Problem is do you really want to argue with a nurse over how much a shared room is when you think you're having a heart attack?

conceptualman said:
in a true free market a less expensive hospital with better care

Well right now part of the problem is because many hospitals are "not-for profit" when they take control of a large number other hospitals in the area and hold a monopoly, the government is reluctant to do a damn thing.

Perfect example of their monopolies is here in St. Louis, nearly any hospital has the "Barnes-Jewish" name attached to it. Now they provide excellent care compared to the other hospitals, but it's a bit disturbing how much of the "market" they have sown up, regardless of how good they may be.
 
If I have a beef with the American health care system, its that no one knows what anything costs. And then, after the care, they come up with some absurd number. And I don't even care if whatever procedure they used is expensive.

The problem is, if you get a bill for 100k and don't have insurance, you end up paying that amount. If you're an insurance company, you negotiate that number down to a more realistic cost (and the individual covered by insurance goes around thinking... wow, that insurance just saved me 100k).

that's pretty fucked up and I guess that's what creates ambulance chasers as well
 
that's pretty fucked up and I guess that's what creates ambulance chasers as well

I never thought about that, but with the hospital bills the way they are today, it would explain why a lot of people try and pawn the blame off on someone else when they get hurt.
 
Wasn't it a T-34/85? They just put a big honkin' 85mm gun on the body of a T-34/76

pretty much . but they borrowed the whole turret from a different tank they were working on . i want to say the kv2 :think: the result was probably all around the best tank design of ww2:
easy to produce
tough
diesel
pwr / weight
good gun
big tracks , less ground pressure
relatively good in its climate , better in cold , ice , snow

yes
 
one thing is if the supermarkets worked the way hospitals did then you would go in and see a 'dietary specialist' who would write you a permission/order for the recommended food based on a series of complicated tests . you get a package of food handed to you . a couple of weeks later you get the bill in the mail and the supermarket has charged you whatever it pleases and you are just expected to pay .the price you pay for something varies widely from one customer to another and between supermarkets but nobody can make sense of it because it is a hidden price . undisclosed to the public . it is a matter of private negotiations and conduits not in the eye of the public . the situation would be so because of regulation limiting the market for groceries due to fear , tort , obvious inefficiency

but supermarkets would fail to serve the needs of the public that way , wouldn't they . the main thing that sets them apart is that the prices are right there on the product and the customer can make a choice . the price is known ahead of time and you can comparison shop between brands and stores .
healthcare should be like a supermarket . i am saying that the hospitals and providers should be required by law to publish what they are going to charge for whatever service , operation , drug , or anything . they should be required to publish this list on a quarterly basis . the list must be published 2 months before the quarter is in effect . everyone pays the same damn price . period . if the price is too high or quality is lousy in one place , go elsewhere . the aid or insurance pays whatever the price is .
even if you are in an emergency and have to go to whatever hospital you will get a better deal because you will only be liable for market prices , not artificially inflated prices . then you make arrangements later or it is dealt with but responsibility for payment or method of payment is separate from pricing .
 
Oh the scandinavian countries still have alcholics and people who are nothing but a drag on society by using the system to live a comfortable life, but we all have these extensive social welfare protections to make sure that people who get into a slump are able to get up on their feet again, much easier than what it would be in say the US.
This also extends to healthcare, making it not free, but putting a limit on how much one person is expected to pay on her or his own, before the state will pay the rest of the bill.
This of course costs alot of tax money but it's not like scandinavians are starving on the streets now is it.

I think the US has so many criminals and outcasts by being a country with a big lack of social equality, which feeds hopelessness in the minds of the poorest people and convices them that criminal acts are okay because that's the only way to get ahead in life.

(I so much finnish the stupid book (atlas shrugged) and see if they ever give an answer to that question (who is John Galt), it's getting annoying but so is her views on socialism...)

well hopefully your countries do not become bum magnets . anyway , if that system makes you happy then great . i am glad you are happy . i would like to do things differently . and the us is not as heartless as it may seem .

by the way , if you read that book and the only thing you get out of it is annoyance, then you will never know who is john galt .do not be hung up on details .there is a larger point about human nature and the nature of the dreams to which people aspire .:|
in a sense , if you are halfway through the book , then even though it does not tell you literally who john galt is , you are told who he is . john galt is a very important metaphor . and that is all i am telling you :D
 
I like your Supermarket comparison :thumbup:

The clinic my parents goto, as well as a few other local clinics, do precisely just that. They have a sign on the wall in the lobby that says exactly how much a physical is, a flu shot, etc...

They also have MASSIVE amounts of cheap prescription drugs. The go around to all the Dr's and request all the free samples they get from drug companies, and encourage the Dr's to get as many as they can. I find it funny how a drug will cost $200 a bottle, but the companies can afford to give them away like candy on Halloween.

BTW, one thing I would like to see done away with is all these advertisement by drug companies, that information is practically useless to me, and most Dr's HATE having their patients ask them about random drugs from tv. I vaguely recall reading an article mentioning that since these advertisements started showing up, more people started to think they had these problems.
 
Wasn't it a T-34/85? They just put a big honkin' 85mm gun on the body of a T-34/76

Yes, you are absolutely right, it was the 85mm.
 
BTW, one thing I would like to see done away with is all these advertisement by drug companies, that information is practically useless to me, and most Dr's HATE having their patients ask them about random drugs from tv. I vaguely recall reading an article mentioning that since these advertisements started showing up, more people started to think they had these problems.
They have done their job then - damn. Bad enough when you have real ill people, but to start to get inundated with hypochondriacs. ....
 
lol our government has a campaign going on saying that generic medicine has to adhere to exactly the same standards as "brand name" and that they're for all intents and purposes the same thing.
 
lol our government has a campaign going on saying that generic medicine has to adhere to exactly the same standards as "brand name" and that they're for all intents and purposes the same thing.

In the U.S. the FDA ensures that generic medications are bioequivalent or else they cannot be approved for sale. At my pharmacy there are lots of "brand snobs" who will pay over 1000% more for brand-name stuff, even though generics will have the same effect. Now, some people are sensitive to the inactive fillers/binders used in certain generic drugs, so they must take the brand if no other manufacturer produces said generic.

Psychosomatic, I say :lol:
 
Now, some people are sensitive to the inactive fillers/binders used in certain generic drugs, so they must take the brand if no other manufacturer produces said generic.

My dad is the king of cheap, but when it comes to anything related to his chocking problem he has to use the "god damned over priced brand name" medication.
 
Considering all this, it's not hard to understand why there's such a public outcry for free healthcare, regardless of how wrong it may be. The lawyers are out of control, doctors and med companies figure they can charge whatever they want and the government is helplessly tied in knots by the left and right. It's practically corporate anarchy. How can anyone expect the free market to prevail while it's being manipulated as it is?
 
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I like your Supermarket comparison :thumbup:

i do what i can :D

The clinic my parents goto, as well as a few other local clinics, do precisely just that. They have a sign on the wall in the lobby that says exactly how much a physical is, a flu shot, etc...

it is a good place to begin . it must be nice to have a nice simple clinic like that to go to .

They also have MASSIVE amounts of cheap prescription drugs. The go around to all the Dr's and request all the free samples they get from drug companies, and encourage the Dr's to get as many as they can. I find it funny how a drug will cost $200 a bottle, but the companies can afford to give them away like candy on Halloween.

and then we wonder why it is $200/bottle. :blink:
but it is good that the people who run the place really care about providing affordable basic care .

BTW, one thing I would like to see done away with is all these advertisement by drug companies, that information is practically useless to me, and most Dr's HATE having their patients ask them about random drugs from tv. I vaguely recall reading an article mentioning that since these advertisements started showing up, more people started to think they had these problems.

i would imagine more people became worried about digger the dermaphodite when that was pushed . it borders on quackery sometimes , imo . :|
 
Considering all this, it's not hard to understand why there's such a public outcry for free healthcare, regardless of how wrong it may be. The lawyers are out of control, doctors and med companies figure they can charge whatever they want and the government is helplessly in knots yanked tightly by the left and right. It's practically corporate anarchy. How can anyone expect the free market to prevail while it's being manipulated as it is?

Anyway, I live in Texas and we've got our more than fair share of fat dummies. I think the negative American stereotype comes down to the careless attitudes that have been brewing since the 50s and culminating with the recent heights of technology that keeps people indoors and society's fetish with the unreal. Many of us around the world have simply lost touch with sincerity, rugged individualism and true authenticity. Drugs, for example- generics are as real as name brand drugs. What isn't real is the name brand itself, which is nothing more than a hollow reification. I love Texas, though! All we need are some mountains here in the southeast and some twisty roads.

you are absolutely correct .
 
I came in here expecting a flamewar, but instead find an intelligent discussion.

As for health care, the US system isn't totally messed up, it all depends on where you live. The two times I needed emergency care I was in, stitched up, and out in under an hour, and in another visit for non-emergency care (x-rays for broken toes) I was taken care of swiftly as well. With 3 family members in the health care business, I have learned that this is the norm, and the bad stories you here are the exception.
 
yeah but do you have and can you afford health insurance?

Yeah, but so do most people with a job.

The easiest way to have universal health care in the US is to provide services to those without insurance, it would cost way too much to provide it for the entire country. Reform is needed, not replacement of the system.
 
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