For Americans wondering "Why the hate?", some answers from PBS

[zenkidori]

Yeah, but so do most people with a job.

Most, not all. I for example, can't afford insurance. crazy huh? I have no problem getting internet, paying rent, etc. but for some reason, I can't find affordable health insurance that I could use. the cheapest I've found is $500 per semester thru school, and I'm not currently enrolled so I'm not qualified(you MUST have insurance to go to my school).

I even get paid extra at my job since they don't give us insurance, but strangely, I can't find anything affordable. and I'm indeed in good health.

 

[Ventura6]

Ventura You can bargain with them. Problem is do you really want to argue with a nurse over how much a shared room is when you think you're having a heart attack?

Well, not only did I not mean to say that you should bargain in the middle of cardiac arrest, but that it's the norm for insurance companies to hold huge sway over hospitals when the bills come in. That's how I understand it anyway. What I meant is, the uninsured don't usually get the advantage of negotiating a price... after the services are rendered. Insurance companies have this. It's a good reason to have insurance, but it's a fundamentally dishonest way of running a business.

The easiest way to have universal health care in the US is to provide services to those without insurance, it would cost way too much to provide it for the entire country. Reform is needed, not replacement of the system.

Well, that seems to be the policy in emergency rooms. Provide care to those who don't pay for it. And if that's the blanket policy, then everyone will drop their insurance. I just really don't see a need for huge reforms, aside from the price problem I mentioned before, although the market is starting to find solutions to even this problem with small private practitioners who charge specific prices for certain services. I say, leave it up to the market. The market, time and time again, finds creative solutions.

My folks got back from England not too long ago, and my dad had to go to the hospital. So they sent him to an NHS hospital. He said that the service was OK, the facilities were ... well, they were enough. It was also very slow and all the staff seemed to be overworked.

He also noted that before the incident, that it seemed the only thing on the TV was reports about the imminent doom of England's health care system. Is this true? Is this a huge issue there?

Also, I'm surprised no one has posted this...

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[zenkidori]

Well, that seems to be the policy in emergency rooms. Provide care to those who don't pay for it.

That's not accurate. Hospitals can't deny you emergency care, but you are still going to get a bill for it, and are expected to pay it.

 

[nomix]

Yes, I believe 60 minutes operated with a number that said that 70 % of personal bankruptcy in the United States happen after people fall down from ladders or get sick.

That's not a good statistic.

 

[cvrefugee]

Yes, I believe 60 minutes operated with a number that said that 70 % of personal bankruptcy in the United States happen after people fall down from ladders or get sick.

That's not a good statistic.

I always thought it was due to a lack of personal responsibility, like spending more than you earn. That would make more sense, wouldn't it?

 

[nomix]

Well, however you look at it, it ends up telling one tale. If private citizens are left alone to care for their own health care, then many can't or won't do it.

As a result, you end up effed up. It's not good for the person him/herself, but it's neither good for the country as a whole.

And from a humanitarian perspective, in my opinion, it's totally sickening.

 

[zenkidori]

I don't know the exact statistic, but yes, a very large number of financial problems are cause by our wonderful health care system.

edit: found some sources:
http://content.healthaffairs.org/cgi/content/full/hlthaff.w5.63/DC1

In 2001, 1.458 million American families filed for bankruptcy. To investigate medical contributors to bankruptcy, we surveyed 1,771 personal bankruptcy filers in five federal courts and subsequently completed in-depth interviews with 931 of them. About half cited medical causes, which indicates that 1.9?2.2 million Americans (filers plus dependents) experienced medical bankruptcy. Among those whose illnesses led to bankruptcy, out-of-pocket costs averaged $11,854 since the start of illness; 75.7 percent had insurance at the onset of illness. Medical debtors were 42 percent more likely than other debtors to experience lapses in coverage. Even middle-class insured families often fall prey to financial catastrophe when sick.

http://www.consumeraffairs.com/news04/2005/bankruptcy_study.html

llness and medical bills caused half of the 1,458,000 personal bankruptcies in 2001, according to a study published by the journal Health Affairs.

The study estimates that medical bankruptcies affect about 2 million Americans annually -- counting debtors and their dependents, including about 700,000 children.

Surprisingly, most of those bankrupted by illness had health insurance. More than three-quarters were insured at the start of the bankrupting illness. However, 38 percent had lost coverage at least temporarily by the time they filed for bankruptcy.

http://www.commondreams.org/headlines/042700-03.htm

Ruinous health-care costs, not profligate spending, are the leading cause of personal bankruptcy among Americans, a new study has found.

"The American middle class is solid and secure and prosperous -- we are unlike anything ever known in history -- yet American families live just one illness or accident away from complete financial collapse," one of the study authors, Elizabeth Warren, said yesterday.

About 500,000 people sought bankruptcy protection in the United States last year because of the crushing burden of medical expenses, says the study, to be published next month in Norton's Bankruptcy Adviser, a specialty periodical for lawyers.

The number equals about half the one million Americans who filed for bankruptcy protection last year.

http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=10000103&sid=aolabyFcYBVY&refer=us

Feb. 2 (Bloomberg) -- Half of U.S. bankruptcy filers say that out-of-pocket medical expenses led to their financial hardship -- and most of the people had health insurance, according to a Harvard University study.

For the study, researchers surveyed 1,771 filers in five states, and as many as 54.5 percent cited medical expenses as a reason for filing. In addition, the study showed about a 30-fold increase in medical expense-related bankruptcies since 1981.

Researchers interviewed 931 of the filers to glean more financial, insurance and medical information. They also viewed financial data from public court records and calculated out-of- pocket expenses, which didn't include insurance premiums.

``Cancer was the most expensive diagnosis, with average out- of-pocket expenses of $35,000,'' said Steffie Woolhandler, a professor at Harvard Medical School and an author of the study. Death caused by any disease totaled $17,283 on average, followed by neurological diseases at $15,560 and mental disorders at $15,478. Insurance premium payments were not included in out-of- pocket expenses.

 

[swek]

What the fuck is going on here?

Moved to political due to being entirely OT.

 

[zenkidori]

lol where have you been? :lol:

 

[swek]

Not here doing my job it seems. I checked on this when it was new but since then it has evolved into something else entirely.

 

[zenkidori]

I always thought it was due to a lack of personal responsibility, like spending more than you earn. That would make more sense, wouldn't it?

that's the problem, many people do spend more than they earn in the emergency room. Let's say you make around $25k a year, you don't qualify for medicaid and can't find any healthcare for whatever reason, either you have a "preexisting condition"(super fucking bullshit if you ask me), or just can't plain find any coverage for whatever reason. Your kid gets seriously sick or hurt and you need to have the ambulance take him/her to the ER. Well the ambulance ride is going to cost something like $2000(just going off when my brother was taken), then all the tests they run, whatever procedure you need to do, hospital stay time, etc. can run you well over your yearly income. Then you set up a payment plan with the hospital, only they can't give any kind of decent rate or payment terms most of the time, as they are pretty aggressive in trying to get their money back, so you've basically been forced into a loan you can't afford, because your kid got sick or hurt.

all the while you pray that nobody else needs care.

There is a reason most of those families are middle class. If you are dirt poor, you can get medicaid, and if you are more wealthy, you can afford health care no problem, but if you are somewhere in between you are walking a thin line. This doesn't just stop at health care, it extends to most things in American life, for example college. According to the government my parents make too much money for me to qualify for financial aid, except they have bills to pay, 2 other kids to worry about and when all is said and done, they could in no way afford the "expected family contribution". So now I have to work my ass off and pay for school myself, which isn't all that great since I've taken a whole semester and TWO YEARS OFF trying to pay for everything. I'll be going back in the spring, most likely on loans, so that'll be fun being so in debt when I get out of school.

 

[october]

Hi guys,
Can I clarify something please? Are we talking about what the outside world think of America or is it what America thinks of America? If so then this thread is going down the latter & should be moved IMO....maybe to an America bashing America thread or whatever This is just fuckin' awesome! A post is made supposedly as to why 'we....WE being the rest of the world hate & bash America'.... & then ALL the Yanks go off & start bashing themselves...lol

However....

I just want to say that I don't hate Americans. I don't REALLY think a lot of people do....but SOME people with their mates seem to have to for whatever reason.

I have no problems with the Yanks. From my dealings with them as friends & professionally they are funny. polite & generally behave themselves better when out on the town than we do here in Ireland. Sometimes their manner would put us all here (in Ireland I mean) to shame.

People only hate Americans because they're an easy target....blame them for everything blah blah blah....

I have yet to meet a rude American or one who is just plain obnoxious when drunk. We all have fun when drunk but the Yanks don't go kicking people in the head on the way home after a night out....where as unfortunately we seem to do

American 'bashing' is just for fun & we can do it real good....but they're just too polite to give out about it.

However NO nation is perfect & the Yanks have their collective flaws too like the rest of us.

Just my 2 cents....not that any Yank here will pay a blind bit of notice to what I have just said. From what I've read here they're all too busy kicking themselves in the head, or so it seems anyways....

 

[thedguy]

For example college. According to the government my parents make too much money for me to qualify for financial aid, except they have bills to pay, 2 other kids to worry about and when all is said and done, they could in no way afford the "expected family contribution". So now I have to work my ass off and pay for school myself, which isn't all that great since I've taken a whole semester and TWO YEARS OFF trying to pay for everything. I'll be going back in the spring, most likely on loans, so that'll be fun being so in debt when I get out of school.

I had this same problem with financial aid. What sad is, my dad didn't make shit because he was on disability at the time, and my mom spent every last penny of her money on clothes and her car, she was not going to contribute to my education.

What really pisses me off is with one of my friends. His parents owned 3 houses (fully paid for) a very good business, and his mom had just over $1million in the bank and was trying to piss it down the drain on pointless shit to avoid paying taxes on it. The part that pisses me off is my friend got the state of California and the Federal gov to pay his 2 years tuition at ITT. $28k each year. I was able to get $2k in grants, and my family had no where near the money his did. He didn't know anyone I didn't, and the only thing I can honestly think may have had any influence was that his parents are Mexican immigrants.

 

[tigger]

Let's say you make around $25k a year, you don't qualify for medicaid and can't find any healthcare for whatever reason, either you have a "preexisting condition"(super fucking bullshit if you ask me), or just can't plain find any coverage for whatever reason.

Ah yes, the "pre-existing condition." Long story short, i've had an ACL replaced and the cartilage in that knee is shot. I will need a knee replacement here in about 15-20 years and the odds are good i'll tear that ACL again before that. I can't get cheap insurance. I might be able to find some student insurance next semester, but so far no one will insure me. It's fun to think about when I'm out on my dirtbike .

Just my 2 cents....not that any Yank here will pay a blind bit of notice to what I have just said.

Haha, well we've got types like your friends here too, starting fights after a night at the bars and the like (I would know nothing about that :lol: ).

 

[Ventura6]

Ah yes, the "pre-existing condition." Long story short, i've had an ACL replaced and the cartilage in that knee is shot. I will need a knee replacement here in about 15-20 years and the odds are good i'll tear that ACL again before that. I can't get cheap insurance. I might be able to find some student insurance next semester, but so far no one will insure me. It's fun to think about when I'm out on my dirtbike .

Why should your insurance be as cheap for you as someone who has no pre-existing conditions?

 

[tigger]

Why should your insurance be as cheap for you as someone who has no pre-existing conditions?

Never said it should be. The problem has been so far that I can't get approved for anything I can afford. All I want is some basic, HMO crappy insurance; anything is better than nothing. Granted I could look into this quite a bit more, but the few companies I've talked to would approve me for the more expensive "preferred care" blah blah whatever pay-out-the-ass plans, and I don't have a grand a year to drop on insurance. Not after rent, bills, tuition, gas, food. I already have to take out loans to cover some of my tuition and if I work anymore it will start to affect my grades.

 

[Lilleput]

lol Americans are fat and stupid!

 

[Ventura6]

Never said it should be. The problem has been so far that I can't get approved for anything I can afford. All I want is some basic, HMO crappy insurance; anything is better than nothing. Granted I could look into this quite a bit more, but the few companies I've talked to would approve me for the more expensive "preferred care" blah blah whatever pay-out-the-ass plans, and I don't have a grand a year to drop on insurance. Not after rent, bills, tuition, gas, food. I already have to take out loans to cover some of my tuition and if I work anymore it will start to affect my grades.

If you can't come up with a grand a year, I have a difficult time believing that health insurance is at the top of your to do list.

 

[tigger]

If you can't come up with a grand a year, I have a difficult time believing that health insurance is at the top of your to do list.

Ha, well where's that cash supposed to come from? I'm working thirty hours a week while taking 15 hours of classes, and covering most of my tuition with grants and loans. So far this semester I've had to cut into my savings twice to cover my rent. Health insurance definitely isn't at the top of my list right now, it's been sidelined as something I can live without. I do want it though, but I think I may have to wait until the end of the semester to see were I'm at financially and what my options are.

 

[Ventura6]

Ha, well where's that cash supposed to come from? I'm working thirty hours a week while taking 15 hours of classes, and covering most of my tuition with grants and loans. So far this semester I've had to cut into my savings twice to cover my rent. Health insurance definitely isn't at the top of my list right now, it's been sidelined as something I can live without. I do want it though, but I think I may have to wait until the end of the semester to see were I'm at financially and what my options are.

OK.