Four automakers selling some vehicles with defective Takata airbags, Senate report

jack_christie

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So its ok to sell cars with killer airbags, but must stop immediately selling cars with dodgy emissions!!!!!!!:bangin:

Toyota Motor Corp., Fiat Chrysler Automobiles, Volkswagen AG and Mitsubishi Motors Corp. are still selling new vehicles in the U.S. with defective airbags that will eventually have to be recalled, the top Democrat on the U.S. Senate Commerce Committee said in a report today.

The report said the automakers confirmed they are continuing to sell some vehicles with ammonium-nitrate inflators without a drying agent. The vehicles are legal to sell but must be recalled by 2018, the report said.
http://www.autonews.com/article/20160601/OEM11/160609990/four-automakers-selling-some-vehicles-with-defective-takata-airbags

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Toyota recalls vehicles in Europe, China, Japan over airbags
http://europe.autonews.com/article/20160601/COPY/306019929/toyota-recalls-vehicles-in-europe-over-takata-airbags
 

Eunos_Cosmo

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How can Volkswagen and Mitsubishi possibly have viable futures in the US?
 

GRtak

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VW still has a fairly hardcore following here. Mitsubishi got taken over and is going to get pulled out of this market sooner or later anyway.
 

Spectre

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So its ok to sell cars with killer airbags, but must stop immediately selling cars with dodgy emissions!!!!!!!:bangin:
You kind of missed the important part of your own quoted article.

The vehicles are legal to sell but must be recalled by 2018, the report said.
Other parts that get left out:

1. Those airbags are on the face of it compliant, safe and legal *when new* and for several years after. It's only as the charge ages that problems show up. The fuckwits at Takata used ammonium nitrate which works well and predictably when a fresh charge but is known to go unstable as it ages when exposed to humidity or moisture.
2. The replacements are taking time to be tested, certified and/or manufactured.
3. Honda and Nissan were some of the first to get in line with other companies to get replacements made and therefore took up much of the free industry capacity. Toyota, Fiat, VW and Mitsu were slow to react and now find themselves stuck in line and are forced to run out their existing inventory. Takata is *not* allowed to make any new ANFO powered airbags.

This also has to do with how the US regulatory system works - which actually makes sense. To quote appropriate passages from the VW thread:

If you disclose a defeat device to the EPA and prove a need for it to exist, they'll work with you as a reward for being up front and honest.

If you go behind their back and sneak it in, they'll give you the book.

VW did the latter, like the medium/heavy duty truck engine makers did in the late 90's, and are now being punished accordingly
Further, everyone else managed to meet the standard. All VW had to do was adopt DEF/SCR/urea injection - the technology already existed at the time, and that's what Mercedes did. Or they could have followed Navistar and tried to work out an advanced EGR solution. Or they could have tried something else - oddly enough, the EPA was willing to work with manufacturers to achieve the standard as the EPA didn't like the idea of requiring a consumable to meet the standard. The EPA even gave Navistar a waiver for several extra years to try to get EGR to work.

Instead, VW cheated and did nothing to actually improve their emissions.

The very least that should be done is the same that Navistar had to do when they finally had to admit that EGR wasn't going to do it - pay $3370 per non-complying engine sold to that date. At about 500,000 cars, that isn't going to be cheap.

Edit: I do mean that at as an absolute minimum - Navistar had negotiated with the EPA ahead of time. In other words, Navistar was honest and went to the EPA with the proposal before trying to get it to work. The EPA knew that the trucks were going to be sold with non-compliant engines and had granted a waiver for them in the hopes that Navistar's EGR system would work out and those trucks would be updated to be compliant later. It didn't, Navistar paid the previously agreed penalties, and everyone moved on.

VW didn't tell the EPA they were doing this. They didn't tell anyone. And then they had the gall to advertise their diesels were clean. They need to be appropriately 'rewarded' for their actions - VW should have to pay more, a lot more, for breaking the rules by cheating.
The US Government regulatory bodies are often willing to work with vehicle makers on regulatory problems if the problem is brought to them ahead of time and a satisfactory reason is given for non-compliance. As noted above, the EPA would have been perfectly willing to help out VW with waivers and such if VW had come to them and explained their problem. VW didn't, cheated anyway, and they're getting some of what they deserve as a result. Same thing happens in this situation - manufacturers are being allowed to disable the defective and unsafe-by-time airbags now and continue to sell through their existing inventory while replacements are being made, if they will also disable and recall/replace the new ones before they start going bad, so they have time to get new, non-ANFO/Takata ones certified and made.
 
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jack_christie

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You kind of missed the important part of your own quoted article.

The vehicles are legal to sell but must be recalled by 2018, the report said.
Doesn't make it right, practically corrupt the way this is playing out.

Beyond screwed up they haven't sourced other suppliers since 2008 and cancelled all Takata contracts.
 

rickhamilton620

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Doesn't make it right, practically corrupt the way this is playing out.

Beyond screwed up they haven't sourced other suppliers since 2008 and cancelled all Takata contracts.
It takes time to develop and spec these systems.

Chances are, many of the vehicles out now with the issue were too far along in development to suddenly change. - everything was likely validated for the takata airbags already.

Then there's giving other airbag suppliers time to ramp up production, ensure the qa on their end is good, etc.

A change like this is massive and doesnt happen overnight.
 

GRtak

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Takata could still add in the absorbent that made it stable for longer. That change should not be that hard to implement.
 

Spectre

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Doesn't make it right, practically corrupt the way this is playing out.

Beyond screwed up they haven't sourced other suppliers since 2008 and cancelled all Takata contracts.
Ummm, most have actually done so. Also, the Takata failures were initially thought to be confined to just a few makes and models; only in the last year or two has it really (pardon the pun) exploded into pretty much every Takata airbag being made.

It's not corrupt and remember - these bags will work *fine* and be perfectly safe for the next four years or so. Provided they are replaced in 2018, no safety deficit will be had.

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Takata could still add in the absorbent that made it stable for longer. That change should not be that hard to implement.
Takata did that. Thing is, they can only make them so fast and they're hideously behind on making replacement inflators. And some of the inflator units with the absorbent that have been shipped out as replacements have had other problems, necessitating a recall of *them* in turn. Really, the lack of absorbent isn't the real problem, the fact that they used ANFO is.
 
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thomas

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How can ANFO be the problem? Didn't Mythbusters teach us, that ANFO is always the answer? :D It is like the Miata of explosives.. :D
 

GRtak

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Honda Goldwing airbag recall spreads Takata mess to motorcycles


Recall, after recall, after recall, one thing has remained constant in the Takata airbag quagmire: The disaster has been confined to the four-wheeled realm. Not any longer. The Honda Goldwing, the first and so far the only motorcycle equipped with an airbag from the factory, has been recalled.

A total of 2,701 motorcycles are involved in this recall, spanning the 2006 through 2010 model years, and only in certain regions. It's sort of confusing, so we suggest perusing the official notice below for all the details. But the gist is the same as ever ? Takata's airbag inflators can rupture, potentially propelling shards of metal shrapnel at the vehicle's occupants. Or in this case, the motorcycle riders.

Only Goldwings sold or operated in areas with high humidity or frequent temperature cycling are being recalled at this time. No schedule for repairs and replacements has yet been announced, but owners are invited to call Honda at 1-866-784-1870 for more information. As always, you can check the recall status of your vehicle with NHTSA's lookup tool using your car or bike's VIN.

PRESS RELEASE

RECALL Subject : Air Bag Inflator May Rupture , 1 INVESTIGATION(S)

Report Receipt Date: MAY 24, 2016

NHTSA Campaign Number: 16V347000

Component(s): AIR BAGS

Potential Number of Units Affected: 2,701

Manufacturer: Honda (American Honda Motor Co.)

SUMMARY:
Honda (American Honda Motor, Inc.) is recalling certain model year 2006-2010 Honda GL1800 (Gold Wing) motorcycles manufactured February 8, 2006, to May 14, 2009 originally sold, or ever registered, in Alabama, California, Florida, Georgia, Hawaii, Louisiana, Mississippi, South Carolina, Texas, Puerto Rico, American Samoa, Guam, the Northern Mariana Islands (Saipan), and the U.S. Virgin Islands, or "Zone A." Additionally, unless included in "Zone A" above, Honda is recalling certain model year 2006-2008 Honda GL 1800 (Gold Wing) motorcycles manufactured May 10, 2007, to May 14, 2009 originally sold, or ever registered, in Arizona, Arkansas, Delaware, District of Columbia, Illinois, Indiana, Kansas, Kentucky, Maryland, Missouri, Nebraska, Nevada, New Jersey, New Mexico, North Carolina, Ohio, Oklahoma, Pennsylvania, Tennessee, Virginia, and West Virginia, or "Zone B." Motorcycles not originally sold or ever registered in either Zones A or B are not subject to this safety recall. These motorcycles are equipped with an air bag inflator assembled as part of the air bag module, used as original equipment or replacement equipment. In the event of a crash necessitating deployment of the air bag, these inflators may rupture due to propellant degradation occurring after long-term exposure to absolute humidity and temperature cycling.

CONSEQUENCE:
An inflator rupture may result in metal fragments striking the rider resulting in serious injury or death.

REMEDY:
Honda will notify owners, and dealers will replace the air bag module containing the inflator, free of charge. The manufacturer has not yet provided a notification schedule. Owners may contact Honda customer service at 1-866-784-1870. Honda's number for this recall is KA8.

NOTES:
Owners may also contact the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration Vehicle Safety Hotline at 1-888-327-4236 (TTY 1-800-424-9153), or go to www.safercar.gov.
 

Spectre

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How can ANFO be the problem? Didn't Mythbusters teach us, that ANFO is always the answer? :D It is like the Miata of explosives.. :D
ANFO is a great idea if you plan to use the charge in the immediate future. It's a *terrible* answer if the charge is going to sit around a while. ANFO that's been left around can actually be *less* stable than liquid nitroglycerine. Or it may go inert. Or, worse, it could hangfire.

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Sadly, not surprising. Fortunately, as pointed out in the article there were very few sold. Honda's got to be seriously pissed at Takata right about now, though.
 
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