General Toyota lawsuit/recall/problem thread

And it keeps getting worse for Toyota. I may prefer other makes to Toyota, but the way they have handled this has ruined their image in consumer minds. I feel bad for the people that will get laid off due to the decrease in sales that this has and will cause.
 
http://www.autoblog.com/2010/02/22/...autoblog+(Autoblog)&utm_content=Google+Reader

This Wednesday, the House Committee on Oversight and Government Reform will hold a hearing on Toyota's recent recall woes entitled "Toyota Gas Pedals: Is the Public at Risk?" The committee released a full witness list today, which includes a number of people we were expecting to testify like Secretary of Transportation Ray LaHood, National Highway Traffic Safety Administrator David Strickland, President and CEO of Toyota Motor North America Yoshimi Inaba and his boss, the President and CEO of Toyota Motor Corporation, Akio Toyoda.

Along with representatives from a couple of consumer safety groups, there's one witness on the list who took us by surprise: Mrs. Fe Lastrella, a relative of four family members who perished late last August when off-duty California Highway Patrol officer Mark Saylor lost control of a loaner Lexus ES350 when it experienced sudden unintended acceleration. Mrs. Lastrella is the mother of Saylor's wife, Cleofe, and brother-in-law, Chris Lastrella, who were both killed in the accident. Lastrella's 13-year-old granddaughter Mahala also died in the accident.

The fatal crash was arguably the catalyst for Toyota's recent fall from grace, as it led to the first recall last October of 3.8 million vehicles for defective floor mats that could entrap accelerator pedals on certain models. That recall has since been expanded to 4.9 million vehicles and was followed by another recall in late January of 2.3 million Toyota vehicles with pedals that could also experience unintended acceleration in certain situations.

What effect will Mrs. Lastrella's testimony on Wednesday have on the hearing's outcome? The presence of a family member, a mother no less, who has been so devastatingly impacted by an accident involving a Toyota, will serve to put a human face on the question of whether or not the tragedy could have been prevented ? and equally important, whether Toyota, the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration ? or both ? are to blame.

This should be interesting.
 
^ That first one is better than anything Toyota has done to date. I like that they put who I assume is the head guy on camera to address his customers directly.

That is the guy who owns Fitzmall. They are a chain of fixed price new car dealerships in the mid-Atlantic region. They run a very good and very tight operation.
 
http://www.autoblog.com/2010/02/22/abc-news-expert-says-electronic-design-flaw-to-blame-in-runaway/
While the real cause of the Toyota unintended acceleration issues are still under investigation by the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration (NHTSA), one news outlet is reporting that they know what's behind it. ABC News tracked down one David Gilbert, an automotive technology professor at Southern Illinois University, who says he knows exactly what it is. According to Gilbert, it's an electronic design flaw in Toyota's 'Fail Safe' system.

Gilbert says the flaw "prevents the car's onboard computer from detecting and stopping certain short circuits that can trigger sudden speed surges." ABC News adds, "he can recreate a short circuit in the electronic throttles of Toyotas that can create a surge of acceleration but can't be detected by Toyota's electronic sensors."

Because the computers won't record an error code in this situation, Gilbert told ABC, "they can't activate the 'fail safe' system designed to shut down the power and put the car in the 'limp home' mode."

John Hanson, a Toyota executive, answered reporters today by saying an electronic cause of the sudden acceleration issues was "extremely unlikely" and that "no actual evidence has been produced" to the contrary.

This report has led safety advocate Sean Kane, of Safety Research & Strategies, to bolster his claims that the electronics are the real culprit. Kane is set to testify before the House Commerce Committee on the Toyota issue on Tuesday. "The system is fallible, in fact, it's got some really troubling design strategies that are employed by Toyota that appear to be outside the norm. And their system clearly has design strategy that has a very slim margin of safety."

And it looks like the House might agree with them. The New York Times is now reporting that leading Democrats on the House Energy and Commerce Committee said Monday that they were disturbed by the fact that, "Toyota had dismissed the notion that computer issues could be at fault for sticking accelerator pedals, relied on a flawed study to draw that conclusion and then made misleading statements on the repairs it said would fix the problem." We'll get you the results of the hearings as they come in tomorrow. Thanks to everyone for the tips!
 
Between this report, if it proves to be true, and the cell phone interference with the Corolla power steering, Toyota is in serious shit. It means this whole shim solution is just another set of cheap zip-ties for a much larger problem. That means another recall and possibly the largest factory buy-back in history.

So, who still thinks that Toyota will recover to it's former glory after all this is over? The more I hear about new revelations the more I think Toyota has peaked and is going to suffer the fate of GM.
 
Some of Toyota's internal memos (which have been released by various sources, all easily found online) are saying that they believe that the government has an axe to grind, that they're making a big deal out of Toyota's problems to eliminate a competitor, particularly a foreign one, to their pet automakers, GM and Chrysler.

While this is almost certainly absolutely true, that the Big Three have been allowed to slide on equally bad if not worse problems in general for decades (Ford cruise control unintentional acceleration, Ford cruise control/brake fires which were a known issue for years, GM's habit of shipping cars that randomly burst into flame, etc, etc.,), the problem for Toyota is that since their infection with Unwarranted Cultural Superiority Syndrome sometime in the nineties. they've given their enemies an overwhelming surplus of ammunition to use against them. They were the ones that cranked out crap and refused to look at problems presented to them; not unlike GM, as a matter of fact.
 
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Between this report, if it proves to be true, and the cell phone interference with the Corolla power steering, Toyota is in serious shit. It means this whole shim solution is just another set of cheap zip-ties for a much larger problem. That means another recall and possibly the largest factory buy-back in history.

So, who still thinks that Toyota will recover to it's former glory after all this is over? The more I hear about new revelations the more I think Toyota has peaked and is going to suffer the fate of GM.

I dunno, I personally think not, but there are still (yes still) millions who think the company's infallible, and that this is a evil govt ploy to save GM and Chrysler. These same people say they will buy another Toyota tomorrow, at least according to the board's I've lurked on and consumer blogs I visit.

Sadly, I wouldn't be surprised if a imperceptible sales fall happened and tons continue to buy Camry's because they hear on TV that "they've fixed it." :rolleyes:

I appreciated Toyota's for what they were, which were reliable, high quality cars. But the actions in recent years (and the fact that they strive to make every model dull as ditch water except for a few that manage to sneak through: Rav4 V6, 2010 Sienna SE) and the handling of this set of recalls/coverups are simply horrible. Banking on your reputation while undermining it does not a good company make.
 
I am certain that the current witchhunt in Washington is a ploy to try to save Government Motors. As I said above, the problem for Toyota is that they've left Washington plenty of ammo and evidence to use against them. Quite stupidly, in fact. UCSS at its finest.
 
^ The problem is that almost no one leaving Toyota is switching to GM, they're going to Honda and to a lesser degree Ford.

I think that people will start to have their confidence shaken once these hearings start, especially if they reveal that Toyota knew the cause was electronic and the floormats and pedal recalls were both a smokescreen to protect their profits. I'm pretty sure that is already going to happen with the memo that Toyota "saved" $100 Million by "negotiating" a limited recall with the feds. If someone wanted to portray that as negotiating the lives of their customers it would be devastating for Toyota's PR.

If the hearings find out that it is an electronics issue (which may result in another recall or buy-back) I'm reasonably sure that people will start to distrust anything Toyota has to say. It would make it their third strike in dealing with this problem.

I know that if I were on the House committee I would trot out all of Toyota's PR lies about voluntary recalls and drill home that it took the NHTSA flying to Japan to get them to do one thing about it.
 
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This should be interesting.

Yes it will. But regarding that specific Lexus ES crash, Autoblog seems to have lumped that car in with the rest of the flawed Toyota cars:

Did they forget the fact that the reason that particular Lexus crashed is due to human error? Double stacked floor mats by the dealer/whomever used the car last, with the 2nd floor mat being an all-weather one from an RX.

But that doesn't matter. The media and the public will surely have a field day with this...a mother that lost her children testifying in front of Congress? Oh boy, no amount of "facts" or "logic" will save Toyota from this one...they're gonna take a nuke up the ass. (not like they didn't deserve it with all their recall/safety shenanigans)
 
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^ The problem is that almost no one leaving Toyota is switching to GM, they're going to Honda and to a lesser degree Ford.

I didn't say that it was an effective move. It's just that this is the move they are taking in Washington with the idea that it might help Government Motors. Never mind that in reality it won't, it's that the voters will see the congresscritters as 'having done something.' They're justifying their continued employment and continued union support, in other words.


It's getting more interesting. The LA Times is running an article that gives quite a bit of insight into what's going on here. There's something seriously screwed up in Japan - I've highlighted some interesting sections. This begins to explain the seriously schizophrenic reactions we've been seeing out of Toyota.

Toyota's fractured structure may be at root of safety problems
Former insiders says the carmaker's system of tight control from Japan over technical matters tied the hands of U.S. subsidiaries.

By Ralph Vartabedian and Ken Bensinger

February 22, 2010 | 3:38 p.m.

In a bold national television appearance early this month, a top executive at Toyota's U.S. sales office in Torrance declared that the automaker had discovered the exact causes of sudden acceleration in its vehicles: floor mats and sticking pedals.

But only days earlier, executives from Toyota's regulatory office in Washington told congressional investigators that they could not be absolutely sure what was behind the problem. And the company's attorneys acknowledged shortly after the meeting that sticking pedals would not cause sudden acceleration.

The contradiction led Rep. Henry A. Waxman (D-Beverly Hills), chairman of a powerful House committee investigating Toyota, to issue a stinging letter asserting that the company couldn't get its story straight.

To former Toyota insiders, however, the mangled message has roots in the company's fractured organizational structure in the United States -- a design that put key decision making in the hands of executives in Japan and ultimately impaired its ability to prevent the now-burgeoning safety problems before they reached the crisis stage.

As Toyota Motor Corp. has grown into a powerhouse of the auto industry over the last decade, it has built up a vast complex of engineering centers, test tracks, financial arms, sales offices and manufacturing plants that spread from California to New York, spilling over into Canada and Mexico as well.

But Toyota lacks a single U.S. headquarters; its units can operate as fiefdoms that report independently to Japan. The complicated tasks of gathering information about sudden-acceleration reports, analyzing the problems and engineering fixes, as well as reporting the issues to federal safety regulators, were handled by different Toyota subsidiaries, each managed separately in many cases from Japan, former Toyota managers and employees say.


And documents released by House investigators show that some of the disjointed subsidiaries of Toyota had an explicit strategy to minimize safety recalls, saving the company hundreds of millions of dollars even while reports of fatal accidents were increasing.

On Monday, Toyota disclosed that a federal grand jury in New York and the Securities and Exchange Commission had subpoenaed documents, adding criminal and securities investigations to its expanding political and regulatory probes.

"You know the joke that every bank branch has a president -- well, every Toyota facility has a president and one can't tell another what to do," said John Jula, former engineering manager at the company's technical center in Ann Arbor, Mich.

Jula, who left Toyota in 2003 after eight years, said he had almost no interaction with the sales or dealership organizations that were collecting safety data from consumers, because all of the information flowed to Japan and all of the key engineering decisions came out of Japan. He left the company, he said, convinced that its dedication to safety had deteriorated.

Jula said he also had little contact with American plant managers even though he was responsible for designing interiors for some of the models the company made in the U.S.

But the tight control exercised from company headquarters in Toyota City, outside of Nagoya, led the company into a series of disastrous miscalculations, critics say.

"They let Americans do what they do best, advertising and services, and in that area they left us alone," said Laurence Boland, who left Toyota in 1995 after a 25-year career at the automaker's sales organization based in Torrance. "But when it came to money and technical matters, they kept the control in Japan."

Boland and others say the system of the tight control from Japan has been characteristic of the company's handling of safety issues for decades.

Boland, who handled regulatory compliance, recalled that he was assigned in 1979 to collect information requested by U.S. safety regulators about sticking gas pedals in the Celica model. The pedal was attached to the floor by a hinge, which would rust over time in wet climates and then stick. The records he amassed, however, were sent to Toyota's engineering operations in Japan, he recalled.

When he later visited Toyota's Washington office and reviewed the submission to the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration, he discovered that much of what he had collected was gone.

"It got cleansed in Japan," he said.


The strategy parallels the conduct in the last year, in which the company boasted of successful efforts to minimize safety recalls and save the company hundreds of millions of dollars, according to documents released Sunday by House investigators.

The document was addressed Yoshimi Inaba, the low-profile president of Toyota Motor North America, based in Manhattan. Inaba's title may suggest he runs all of the company's operations in its most important market, but in fact he has direct responsibility for about only 1,200 of the company's 40,000 employees in North America. Inaba's authority includes investor relations and federal regulatory issues, but he no role in engineering or manufacturing vehicles. Those operations report through different channels to Japan.

Toyota's current crisis began to emerge publicly last fall, as attention focused on sudden-acceleration problems that had quietly dogged the company for almost eight years. Now, three congressional committees are investigating the company and NHTSA has launched several investigations into Toyota's handling of the issue.

By their nature, all automakers are complex. Not every carmaker with global operations is run the same way as Toyota, however. Honda Motor Co., Japan's second-largest auto company, has global regions that are operated semiautonomously. Its design, engineering and manufacturing plants in the U.S. report to a single executive, Tetsuo Iwamura, chief executive of American Honda Motor Co. "These regions are set up intentionally to be self-reliant," said Jeffrey Smith, a Honda spokesman.

Toyota's structure emerged over the last several decades, as the company was vastly expanding U.S. operations, increasing its North American assembly plants to half a dozen. At the same time, it was cutting costs and increasing the complexity of vehicle electronics.

"That was the culture that created this downfall of Toyota's quality," Jula said.

As for Inaba and his predecessors, he says they wield limited power.

"Mr. Inaba is a facade, just as I was a facade," Jula said. "We put an American face on a Japanese company."

Former Toyota attorney Dimitrios Biller, who defended the company in liability suits, said, "No real decisions are made in the U.S."

Biller said he was regularly forced to ask executives in Japan to provide documents for trials that he knew were located at Toyota offices in Washington, Ann Arbor and Kentucky.

"I couldn't request them directly from the source," said Biller, who left the company in 2007 and is currently involved in several lawsuits with Toyota. "Everything had to come through Toyota City before I could see it."

The fact that Toyota's quality and safety problems have affected almost every model in its line suggests that the automaker has a systemic management problem, said Robert Bea, a UC Berkeley professor who is studying the Toyota situation in a graduate-level engineering class. Bea, who has accumulated about 800 case studies of corporate and government-agency meltdowns, said the cultural and organizational problems affecting Toyota are similar to those that allowed NASA and the Army Corps of Engineers to ignore structural issues leading to the Columbia space shuttle and Hurricane Katrina disasters.

"It's what I call arrogance, indolence and ignorance," Bea said. "With those three, you have an explosive combination."

In the last decade, 2,600 complaints about sudden acceleration in Toyota vehicles have been filed with the U.S. government, among them allegations of at least 34 fatalities. Yet when federal safety regulators repeatedly investigated the matter over the last eight years, Toyota asserted that many of the complaints were not relevant.

Although such behavior may seem irrational, the phenomenon is known as the "normalization of deviance," a theory advanced by Columbia University professor Diane Vaughan. In a groundbreaking study, she found that NASA had slowly come to believe that safety anomalies in the shuttle were "normal," because they had not caused an accident in the past.

Toyota has used its structure to fend off lawsuits, forcing attorneys to file repeated requests for information to different subsidiaries, said John P. Kristensen, an attorney in a suit against the company.

"You don't need an MBA to know that Toyota's American subsidiaries were intentionally created to keep them in the dark," Kristensen said. "The system was set up intentionally to work like this."

The last time I heard about a corporation with this much of a disconnect internally, we got the XJ40 - in which literally none of the faults discovered in testing were fixed prior to production because many of the managers just didn't want to know about yet more problems, and others had vested interests in there being no problems reported in testing.

Also, this may be the other shoe - criminal charges may be pending, as implied above.
 
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After some more reading, this sounds alot like what happened to Audi back in the 80s with their Audi 5000:

In 1986, the television program 60 Minutes started Audi's "unintended acceleration" scandal. The show trotted out tearful people, recounted death and carnage, spoke to so-called experts, and generally made it seem like the vehicle in question, the Audi 5000, was a roving menace with a mind of its own. In the end, the U.S. government determined that every single so-called unintended acceleration accident was the result of driver error. Some speculated that because Audi's pedals were closer together than those of some other brands, people were too uncoordinated to choose the correct one. The pedal-placement issue Audi faced at that time parallels the throttle-kill issue Toyota faces now.

And here is some perspective:
Every man, woman, and child in the U.S. has approximately a one-in-8000 chance of perishing in a car accident every year. Over a decade, that's about one in 800. Given the millions of cars included in the Toyota recalls and the fewer than 20 alleged deaths over the past decade, the alleged fatality rate is about one death per 200,000 recalled Toyotas. Even if all the alleged deaths really are resultant from vehicle defects?highly unlikely?and even if all the worst things people are speculating about Toyotas are true, and you're driving one, and you aren't smart or calm enough to shift to neutral if the thing surges, you're still approximately 250 times likelier to die in one of these cars for reasons having nothing to do with unintended acceleration. So if you can muster the courage to get into a car and drive, the additional alleged risk of driving a Toyota is virtually negligible.

Heh:
And this is going to sound uncharitable, but even if the recall dealing with potentially sticking pedals applies to a lot of Toyotas, why aren?t people just shifting into neutral? Even if the throttle really sticks fully open, it won't have any accelerative impact on the car if it's in neutral. By this point, if you have a Toyota (or any car), and you don't know to shift to neutral if the engine races unexpectedly, you're going to succumb to what can only be described as natural selection.

http://www.caranddriver.com/news/ca...dal_media_circus_and_stupid_drivers-editorial
 
^That is seriously screwed up.

I have never sold Toyotas new so I have no experience with how the run their organization but just from reading that story it is nearly backasswards from every other auto company I have worked with.

At Land Rover we sent anything we needed to PAG headquarters either in Irvine, CA or NJ depending on what it was related too. They interfaced with Ford corporate or Land Rover corporate from that end.

Volvo worked the exact same way.

SAAB was a bit more screwed up because we were considered GM's red headed stepchild that no one cared about. There was still a fairly clear hierarchy . That hierarchy might not get you anything you needed and may ignore you completely but it was a clear chain of command.
 
ABC recreated the runaway Toyota case.

Heres an non-embeddable video of it happening.
http://www.autoblog.com/2010/02/22/video-smoking-gun-abc-news-expert-recreates-sudden-acceleratio/

Toyota :no:

But what exactly has that guy done? If he is modifying the output signal from the throttle sensor with extra circuitry to deliberately fool the ecu into receiving a valid full throttle signal... well you can do that with any dbw car.

You can bridge the power wire going into the pedal to the signal output wire and use an appropriate resistor in between them to keep the output signal to a valid range.

Modifying the electronics in a specific way and then blaming the electronics is like cutting through the brake lines and claiming the brakes are faulty. Or take a cable operated throttle body and make a notch in the mechanism so it won't return from full throttle... then say it could happen by corrosion.

I would like to see this recreated without adding extra circuitry to trick the ecu. Prove how it can happen with moisture or corrosion legitimately and prove that it can only happen on a toyota.
 
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ABC recreated the runaway Toyota case.

Heres an non-embeddable video of it happening.
http://www.autoblog.com/2010/02/22/video-smoking-gun-abc-news-expert-recreates-sudden-acceleratio/

Toyota :no:

To be fair, Toyota's rebuttal does hold some truth. He DID introduce an external source that wasn't present before..a short he created. Someone in the comments noticed that they didn't use a Toyota "techstream" diagnostic laptop (which I imagine esp. now...would be near impossible to access by the general public) but instead was using a handheld scanner. Wonder if that would make a difference in any way...(ie-the Toyota diagnostic laptop would detect this code and the handheld scanner wouldn't)

ABC had better ensure that this was airtight and a perfect replication, esp. after Dateline and 60 minutes got in trouble for their "reenactments." IIRC, one Dateline reporter had to do a 3 minute apology/clarification on air regarding the GM Fuel Tank rigging.

Regardless, the fact that the MIL did not turn on is a bit worrying. I'd rather have it turn on for something that was that small on a vital component like that.(that could potentially get serious quick)

I get the sneaking suspicion that ABC's credibility with the public regarding this just dropped big time...
 
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Regardless, the fact that the MIL did not turn on is a bit worrying. I'd rather have it turn on for something that was that small on a vital component like that.(that could potentially get serious quick)

He has used specific circuitry to make sure the signal output is kept within the allowable range. The ecu thinks it is a legitimate full throttle signal.

The power wire going to the pedal would almost certainly be 12v. The output range on most sensors is usually 0-5v. He bridged the power input to the signal output and used a resistor to keep the voltage under 5v (or whatever the maximum is) the ecu can't tell the difference and thinks it is a normal wot signal.

Like i said you can modify any electronic throttle car the same way... it is not something specific to toyota and it is not an ecu fault if you are modifying a sensor to put out an incorrect but still within range signal.
 
But what exactly has that guy done? If he is modifying the output signal from the throttle sensor with extra circuitry to deliberately fool the ecu into receiving a valid full throttle signal... well you can do that with any dbw car.

You can bridge the power wire going into the pedal to the signal output wire and use an appropriate resistor in between them to keep the output signal to a valid range.

Modifying the electronics in a specific way and then blaming the electronics is like cutting through the brake lines and claiming the brakes are faulty. Or take a cable operated throttle body and make a notch in the mechanism so it won't return from full throttle... then say it could happen by corrosion.

I would like to see this recreated without adding extra circuitry to trick the ecu. Prove how it can happen with moisture or corrosion legitimately and prove that it can only happen on a toyota.

QFT

ABC had better ensure that this was airtight and a perfect replication, esp. after Dateline and 60 minutes got in trouble for their "reenactments." IIRC, one Dateline reporter had to do a 3 minute apology/clarification on air regarding the GM Fuel Tank rigging.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Audi_100

60 minutes was also found to falsify the Audi 5000 unintended acceleration, looks like ABC may be guilty of this too (though not nearly as bad as what 60min did to Audi back then)

rickhamilton620 said:
Regardless, the fact that the MIL did not turn on is a bit worrying. I'd rather have it turn on for something that was that small on a vital component like that.(that could potentially get serious quick)

Unless you consider it a defect whenever the ECU does NOT pop on the CEL (check engine light) when someone goes WOT...oh wait that would be every single car in the world with that defect with drive by wire. And in this case, as Quadrax mentioned, the ECU was fooled into thinking it's a normal voltage WOT signal. The ECU should've read the mind of the driver and knew that this was "unintended acceleration."

rickhamilton620 said:
I get the sneaking suspicion that ABC's credibility with the public regarding this just dropped big time...

Actually, Toyota's reputation will drop even more while ABC will gain huge ratings for their "exclusive investigation" that reveals this "stunning flaw" with the Toyota electronics. So you better stay tuned to ABC for more of these insightful news pieces.

Unfortunately, it is the American public who will suffer the most from this ordeal. The fear mongering generated by the mass media frenzy, as well as huge loss to the American economy due to a massive hit on Toyota operations which no doubt will affect hundreds of domestic suppliers and businesses.
 
Unfortunately, it is the American public who will suffer the most from this ordeal. The fear mongering generated by the mass media frenzy, as well as huge loss to the American economy due to a massive hit on Toyota operations which no doubt will affect hundreds of domestic suppliers and businesses.

The problem with this situation (and frankly this thread) is that despite cars being an extremely common and frequently used machine, most people haven't a clue how they work.

Hysterical rantings and clueless speculations are easily believed when you don't understand how something actually operates.

Throw in the fact that it is an electronic related issue and it might as well be witchcraft to most people.

So far everyone is sure that toyota has done something wrong, yet nobody can explain what it is that they have done wrong.
 
^ Sure I can.


  1. Tried to cover it up.
Yup. That's it. Design flaws happen, but it was the way Toyota handled this recall that will kill them, not the recall itself.


  1. They didn't stop production until told to
  2. They continued selling cars they knew were defective until the NHTSA told them to stop - and that took a flight to Japan to make happen.
  3. Sold us a false bill of goods with the floor mat.
  4. They were notified by a major insurance carrier years ago that this might be an issue.
None of these have anything to do with the way cars work.
 
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