General Toyota lawsuit/recall/problem thread

[Mitlov]

^^^ You're going to hell for that, but I laughed.

 

[Mr. Nice]

There is the possibility that he had been riding the brakes, heating them up. They would not be capable of overpowering the engine if this was the case. Also, with advanced training he should not have panicked and left the car in gear. It is possible that he had driver training, yet still panicked and found himself unable to stop the car. There is also the more morbid unthinkable possibility that he did it on purpose, which is an unanswerable question. As you can see in the Car and Driver article, even if rammed into park the car would have disengaged the gear.

It's a controversial issue, and all anyone can do is make guesses as to what happened. In the end, he somehow managed to fail to turn the engine off, failed to stop the car with the brakes, and failed to disengage the transmission. It's not any one thing that got those people killed. It's worth remembering that even police officers are just normal people underneath.

 

[Mitlov]

You're right. We'll never know for sure why the brakes didn't stop that Lexus. The one thing I have a problem with is people proclaiming on the internet that OBVIOUSLY, if the driver had simply tried braking, the car would have stopped.

 

[Ilpav]

Could he not have used the handbrake if the normal brake pedal didn't work? Obviously, if you pull it too quickly, the rear wheels will lock up and the car will spin, but couldn't he have pulled it gradually, then wait for the car to come to a stop, put it in park, and shut it off?

 

[deathrazor]

Do those have a normal hand brake, or the foot parking brake?

 

[rickhamilton620]

Could he not have used the handbrake if the normal brake pedal didn't work? Obviously, if you pull it too quickly, the rear wheels will lock up and the car will spin, but couldn't he have pulled it gradually, then wait for the car to come to a stop, put it in park, and shut it off?

On the ES, the parking brake is a foot pedal where you "push to apply and push to release." Given the fact that most American's prefer Automatics and the majority of us don't believe in using the "emergency" (grrrr.....i hate that incorrect term...) brake when parking ( "That's what "P's" for!") chance's are good that he never even thought of it, and if he did, he may not have known the location for said brake.

 

[Blind_Io]

Could he not have used the handbrake if the normal brake pedal didn't work? Obviously, if you pull it too quickly, the rear wheels will lock up and the car will spin, but couldn't he have pulled it gradually, then wait for the car to come to a stop, put it in park, and shut it off?

Many modern high-end cars, like my mom's XC70 use an electronic parking brake that is computer controlled and acts by simulating a driver putting his foot on the pedal. It is not an independent mechanical system like a traditional hand-brake.

I personally hate it and want a regular hand brake.

 

[Spectre]

There is the possibility that he had been riding the brakes, heating them up. They would not be capable of overpowering the engine if this was the case. Also, with advanced training he should not have panicked and left the car in gear. It is possible that he had driver training, yet still panicked and found himself unable to stop the car. There is also the more morbid unthinkable possibility that he did it on purpose, which is an unanswerable question. As you can see in the Car and Driver article, even if rammed into park the car would have disengaged the gear.

It's a controversial issue, and all anyone can do is make guesses as to what happened. In the end, he somehow managed to fail to turn the engine off, failed to stop the car with the brakes, and failed to disengage the transmission. It's not any one thing that got those people killed. It's worth remembering that even police officers are just normal people underneath.

The gear selector on many Toyotas, like many other modern cars, is not actually a wholly direct mechanical connection any more. It's just a selector switch (even if it does have a shaft-mounted knob and moves through a range of travel.) My XJR is a transitional car - P-R-N-D are all mechanical, and the lever is coupled to a cable that moves a shaft-mounted arm on the side of the automatic... but if I go to manually select a forward gear (on the other side of my J-gate), the cable doesn't move and the lever just engages a set of switches telling the transmission control module what gear I want to be in - just like every other car with a 4L80E installed. Later cars often have even less mechanical connection and IIRC the Prius has none. It is more than possible that the driver did try to shift out of drive and the car simply ignored him.

One thing that keeps coming up is that Toyota combined the ECU, throttle-by-wire controller, cruise control module, ABS controller and transmission controller plus everything else into one combined unit with a single surprisingly cheap CPU. I continue to wonder what exactly that unit does when it gets confused. It would not surprise me at all that if that unit freaks out, you lose all control over throttle, gearshift, emergency brakes and possibly even regular brakes. (Edit: Fun fact - the ABS valve block in your car is computer controlled and works by blocking, either partially or totally, the hydraulic pressure generated by your foot and the power brake assist system from getting to the brake calipers.)

 

[Mr. Nice]

The emergency brake is still mechanical, but I could see how if the car had been malfunctioning engaging the rear brakes when they have some heat in them could be fairly pointless. Also, if you break traction with the rear wheels by using the emergency brake in a front wheel drive car, the rear wheels tend to drag.

The transmission in the ES350 has a low inertia torque converter transmission with a cable linkage. The shift pattern is odd, so confusion as to how the gear lever should be moved could be a factor.

The transmission also allows for manual shift, so in that it's actually more like your Jaguar.

Edit: something else no one here has brought up recently, vacuum disappears when you are at wide-open throttle. This could also be a reason as to why they thought there was no brakes.

 

[Spectre]

I was speaking more in generalities than about that specific Lexus in particular. However...

One thing about parking brakes - they tend to fail quite a lot. Often they seize up because people don't use them. But even so, Toyota had this to say about their parking brakes:

Myth: The parking brake is effective in stopping a vehicle at speed.

Fact: The parking brake may be helpful in that it can provide some additional brakeforce. However, the amount of brakeforce the parking brake applies will be negligible in a vehicle that is running at anything over parking lot speeds. Placing the transmission in Neutral and using firm steady pressure on the brake pedal will be the best way to bring the vehicle to a stop.

The parking brake contact area may be the size of a quarter or less. It's just meant to hold the car steady against static forces, such as being parked on a hill. In fact, a rule of thumb is that the newer the car, the smaller the parking brake pad/shoe is. Trying to use it to stop a car from highway speeds will only heat up the rotor it's attached to without much effect (save those designs that use a mechanical actuator to move the main rear brake friction material instead).

I mention these both to set up this: On the Series III, the parking brake is well known for its propensity to stick if it is not used regularly. Many owners never notice that the parking brake calipers have not released - until they find out that their parking brakes have actually chewed up the edges of the rotors (when they go in for service). So hitting the parking brake is pretty much ineffective as an emergency brake on recent cars, even with mechanical linkages. The change from "emergency brake" to "parking-only brake" happened years ago; older cars actually would list in their manuals the stopping distances with just the hand/e-brake applied, but that slowly went away. In hindsight, perhaps it wasn't a good idea on the part of the engineers who design cars.

Transmission shifter quadrants also sometimes contain shifter lockouts and blockers, do we know if the ES350 does? This could also be why they were unable to shift out of drive.

Even at WOT and vacuum gone, you still can brake to a halt. That just makes the pedal hard and require more effort, it doesn't make the brakes go away. Police officers are trained in what to do if the brake boost fails at speed, so that shouldn't have caused the officer to report 'no brakes'. An officer can still stop a Crown Vic that's got no vacuum at the brake booster with a bit of effort, they should be able to stop an ES350 if that's the case.

I still think that modern *-by-wire cars should have a big red slap button, perhaps protected by a cage, that's a master kill or emergency stop switch, much like those at fuelling stations.

 

[Mr. Nice]

The ES350 does block or delay certain shifts, so that's still a possibility. It is true that the vacuum is merely what provides the assist on hydraulic power brakes, and that the brakes still work. You're assuming that the officer was adequately trained and remembered his training, which may not be the case. As you know, the pedal becomes much harder to push, which could thwart the unaware.

The parking brake in the ES350 is merely a shoe that presses against the rotor (similar to a drum). It could still slow the car or even lock up the rear wheels. If the brakes were already hot from being pressed, the parking brake would have little to no effect. http://www.autopartswarehouse.com/details/QQLexusQQES350QQCentricQQParking_Brake_ShoeQQ20072009QQCE111-dot-08590.html?apwcid=P1135867996W43b3f85c7ab9e&apwidK52z9hk

I'm in total agreement about the red stop button, or that the start/stop button should immediately disable the ignition. The Prius does not have a shift cable, which you referenced before. As cars move away from having mechanical controls, the new danger of electronic malfunction arises.

 

[rickhamilton620]

As Mr. Nice said the gate on modern toyota manumatics is just different enough to be confusing. Its incredibly easy to put it into manual mode when noe tries to put it in neutral. I posted a photo of it earlier but can't again due to posting mobilily.

I have read in manuals for various models (not toyota/lexus as they make obtaining manuals a pita for free....) that the car won't shift into a manually selected gear if the car deems that the given situation isn't safe. This was a last gen Sportage, so anythings possible I guess.

CR's non brake override equipped Venza lost brake pressure when the tester released his foot off the brake while simulating a stuck pedal and applied it again (to simulate a person legitimately paniking and pulsing the brake) and the brake warning came on the MFD. So losing vaccume (sp??) Assist

 

[katwalk]

I have read in manuals for various models (not toyota/lexus as they make obtaining manuals a pita for free....) that the car won't shift into a manually selected gear if the car deems that the given situation isn't safe. This was a last gen Sportage, so anythings possible I guess.

My car is the same, it will even occasionally decide it does not like the gear you are in (while in manual mode) and choose another one for you.


also, vacuum.

 

[Blind_Io]

Toyota recalls 245,000 Lexus sedans in U.S., 1.7 million cars globally

Toyota recalls 245,000 Lexus sedans in U.S., 1.7 million cars globally

It's nice to see Toyota ringing in the new year.

We won't blame you for reading this headline and thinking, "Oh great, another Toyota recall." After all, the Japanese automaker dominated headlines in 2010 by recalling every single model in its then-current product portfolio, including the massive sticky pedal and unintended acceleration recalls that took place in the first half of last year.

Now, Toyota has issued a voluntary recall on about 245,000 Lexus sedans here in the United States and an additional 1.5 million vehicles around the world. Here in the U.S., the 2006-2007 Lexus GS 300 and GS 350, 2006-2009 Lexus IS 250 and 2006-2008 Lexus IS 350 sedans are being recalled due to faulty installation of fuel pressure sensors. If this sensor has not been fastened tightly enough, fuel has the potential to leak between the gasket that connects it to the fuel delivery pipes. Including these North American vehicles, the fuel sensor recall affects 354,524 vehicles around the world, with Automotive News citing that the Toyota Crown and Mark X sedans are being recalled in the automaker's home market.

Toyota's other global recall involves faulty fuel pipes and fuel check valves, though none of the 1.34 million vehicles affected by this one are in North America. In Japan, the RAV4 crossover, Voxy and Noah minivans are being recalled, as well as the Avensis sedan and wagon sold in Europe.

For full details on Toyota's recall here in the States, follow the jump for the automaker's official press release.

Toyota Announces Voluntary Recall of Certain 2006-2007 Lexus GS 300/350, 2006-2009 IS 250 and 2006-2008 IS 350 Vehicles to Inspect the Fuel Pressure

Toyota Motor Corporation announces separate recall involving certain vehicles not sold in North America

TORRANCE, Calif., January 26, 2011 ? Toyota Motor Sales (TMS), U.S.A., Inc., today announced that it will conduct a voluntary Safety Recall involving approximately 245,000 2006 through 2007 Lexus GS300/350, 2006 through early 2009 Lexus IS250, and 2006 through early 2008 Lexus IS350 vehicles sold in the U.S. to inspect the fuel pressure sensor installation.

Due to insufficient tightening of the fuel pressure sensor connected to certain engine fuel delivery pipes (those with Nickel Phosphorus plating), there is a possibility that the pressure sensor could loosen over time. If loosening occurs, fuel could leak past a gasket used in the connection between the sensor and the delivery pipe and through the threaded portion of the sensor.

Lexus dealers will inspect the vehicle for fuel leakage and if no leakage is found, will tighten the fuel pressure sensor with the proper torque. If a fuel leak is confirmed, the gasket between the sensor and the delivery pipe will be replaced and the sensor will be tightened with the proper torque. The inspection and possible gasket replacement will be conducted at no charge to the vehicle owner.

Owners of the involved vehicles will receive a safety recall notification by first class mail once the parts that may be needed have been obtained. Lexus will also post this information on its website. Detailed information about this recall is available through Lexus Customer Satisfaction at 1-800-25 LEXUS or 1-800-255-3987 or at www.lexus.com/recall.

Toyota Motor Corporation (TMC) today announced a separate recall involving 1.3 million vehicles worldwide to remedy a different condition on a different fuel delivery pipe and a high pressure fuel pump check valve. TMC's recall announcement does not involve vehicles sold in North America.

 

[Kensuke Nogami]

I sometimes don't get why people would still report something that's a dead horse now. I mean, Toyota's Recalls were overshadowed by GM's earlier (Dating back to the 'Vair) recalls, along with the Explorer/Firestone recall as well as the Pinto. A fuel leak is NOTHING.

 

[Blind_Io]

How do you figure that? If I recall it was the largest recall in history.

Also, the automotive blogs report on recalls from all the major brands and even most the boutique automakers, Toyota isn't unique in their coverage. They are, however, the only company that built an entire brand identity on being the safe, reliable, boring choice.

 

[Kensuke Nogami]

How do you figure that? If I recall it was the largest recall in history.

Also, the automotive blogs report on recalls from all the major brands and even most the boutique automakers, Toyota isn't unique in their coverage. They are, however, the only company that built an entire brand identity on being the safe, reliable, boring choice.

Honestly, I would actually like a safe, reliable, boring car, which turns out to be my Camry (T/C finally died.)
And it's the biggest recall AIDED by human stupidity. Welp, Darwin's around the corner, watching the population drop.

 

[Blind_Io]

Of course it was aided by human stupidity, that's what made Toyota's situation more than just a regular recall. They promoted themselves as the safe and reliable car company, it was their entire brand identity, then people found out that Toyota had known about potential problems and tried to cover it up. They felt betrayed and Toyota did everything possible to avoid responsibility.

If Toyota issued a recall as soon as they knew about the problem and informed NHTSA they way they were supposed to, this would have been a non-issue. You would have heard about it for a day or two and then it would have been lost in a sea of breaking news.

 

[Kensuke Nogami]

then people found out that Toyota had known about potential problems and tried to cover it up. They felt betrayed and Toyota did everything possible to avoid responsibility.

Which is why I told my colleague at work that if I had a bullet for most of these people, I'd be on death row.

 

[Dr_Grip]

Which is why I told my colleague at work that if I had a bullet for most of these people, I'd be on death row.

"That people" being the customers?