GM investing $890M in next-gen small block V8s

Avalange

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The V8 in the M3 (S65) is quite light for all the tech it has (Double over-head cams, double-vanos variable valves, a seperate throttle body for each cylinder), with a weight of 202kg, 15kg less than the M3 E46 six. For it's displacement, it has an excellent torque curve from low down, and can of course rev to 8400rpm, which makes for a tremendously wide usable power band. Agreed, that's not really less than an LS2, but the M3 V8 is a much more sophisticated and complicated design, which results in the said advantages. BMW could have made that V8 much bigger without a lot of weight added, but they opted for high revs and superior response.
Of course, the V12 Twin Turbo in the 760i / RR Ghost isn't terribly light, but it's a V12 with two turbos and all technical finesses available. That results in maximum torque from 1500rpm to redline, and manners as smooth as an electric engine, just without the noise.
The new, single twin scroll turbo straight-six in the 335i weighs in at about 180kg.
I don't have the numbers for the Ferrari engines, but they are technically excellent with record-setting power/displacement and torque/displacement numbers. And excuse me, but an LS9 just wouldn't fit such a car.
 

GRtak

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Well the issue these days is not really the metal, but how good a materials you make it out of (weight, strength and friction), and the electronics attached to it. I seriously doubt that the European engines would be bang up to date electronically (I mean look at it historically)...then again Bosch are getting quite good these days...

They must have done a good job of optimizing their airflow at the rpm and road speed they cruise at and I suppose a DOHC engine would not be inherently better than this.

Now I don't like push-rod engines (nor American engines), but when you get it explained to you (looking over the whole system) deep down it does make sense. Don't write a engine off until you cover the whole system.

/building my own car has ruined my view of the automotive world! Ack! Now I'm defending a yank pushrod V8! What next?!?!

When are you buying one? :D

And why won't a LSx fit into those cars? It is smaller than a Ferrari v-12.
 
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argatoga

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The V8 in the M3 (S65) is quite light for all the tech it has (Double over-head cams, double-vanos variable valves, a seperate throttle body for each cylinder), with a weight of 202kg, 15kg less than the M3 E46 six. For it's displacement, it has an excellent torque curve from low down, and can of course rev to 8400rpm, which makes for a tremendously wide usable power band. Agreed, that's not really less than an LS2, but the M3 V8 is a much more sophisticated and complicated design, which results in the said advantages. BMW could have made that V8 much bigger without a lot of weight added, but they opted for high revs and superior response.
Complicated != Good.

Anyhow stock Z06 vs stock M3 with S65 V8:

LS7

S65


Which one has a better power band? Oh yeah the "stone age" "uncomplicated" one.

Of course, the V12 Twin Turbo in the 760i / RR Ghost isn't terribly light, but it's a V12 with two turbos and all technical finesses available. That results in maximum torque from 1500rpm to redline, and manners as smooth as an electric engine, just without the noise.
The new, single twin scroll turbo straight-six in the 335i weighs in at about 180kg.
I don't have the numbers for the Ferrari engines, but they are technically excellent with record-setting power/displacement and torque/displacement numbers. And excuse me, but an LS9 just wouldn't fit such a car.
I'm not going to compare a forced induction car to a naturally aspirated one. Again a blown car will be taller AS IT HAS A BLOWER ON IT. Worthless measurement again. A blown Ferrari engine would be bigger too.
 
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otispunkmeyer

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surely as well, if they dont make v8's then a lot of people just wont buy the car/truck/van/whatever....

the v8 is an institution right? makes no sense to stop working on them and phasing them out just yet
 

argatoga

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And I forgot to mention the LSx series of engines are cheaper to make and maintain. Something about not being "sophisticated" and "complicated".
 

MattD1zzl3

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Exactly, you spend all that time and money on a BMW, put in all the latest tech and make it out of the most modern materials, and we still manage to make a faster car, for a third of the money, that still gets good gas milage. Usa, all, the, way :)

Why exactly do you people tax engines based on displacement? And why is complicated, better? And why are we not laughing at people who say "money aside"? Top gear does it too (Comparing say, a viper to a 599 GTB, you know they would do that test, and the big elephant in the room is one can be had for a tiny sum compared to the other, which in my opinion is already a long way to victory.
 
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Ladamaha

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Exactly, you spend all that time and money on a BMW, put in all the latest tech and make it out of the most modern materials, and we still manage to make a faster car, for a third of the money, that still gets good gas milage. Usa, all, the, way :)
Now first of all, I hate these sort of arguments because it's apples and oranges in the end, but the world money always tickles my nerves. Now was it GM or BMW that was bailed out by their government because they were rubbish handling their money I can't remember?
 

thedguy

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To all the guys bragging around with the Corvette's tremendous fuel-economy. That's got more to do with the very long gear ratios (of the sixth gear especially) than with anything else. Of course, because of the big displacement and thereby big torque, that works. But the smallblock isn't more efficient than other good engines by design.
My friend has a c5 z06, he does not get 25mpg out of it and it's using the High compression LS6. Anyone achieving decent mileage out of a Corvette is not driving it right. Using the corvette is almost cheating as sports cars are built to be very aerodynamic and as light as possible, and then GM decided to also try and make it more friendly to the environment than give it a proper gear set and cam.

With that being said, every one of the engines you mentioned are significantly bigger in physical size as well as heavier and more complicated and expensive to manufacture. BMW and Ferrari can get away with building engines that cost 20g+ to replace, GM won't be able to sell ANYONE a car with any of their brands if the engine was that much.
 

otispunkmeyer

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My friend has a c5 z06, he does not get 25mpg out of it and it's using the High compression LS6. Anyone achieving decent mileage out of a Corvette is not driving it right. Using the corvette is almost cheating as sports cars are built to be very aerodynamic and as light as possible, and then GM decided to also try and make it more friendly to the environment than give it a proper gear set and cam.

With that being said, every one of the engines you mentioned are significantly bigger in physical size as well as heavier and more complicated and expensive to manufacture. BMW and Ferrari can get away with building engines that cost 20g+ to replace, GM won't be able to sell ANYONE a car with any of their brands if the engine was that much.
i was about to say, toting the vette as a "you can have big engine and good milage" is a bit of a red herring..... its aerodynamic and weighs about 5lbs soaked through. of course its going to do better than you'd expect...its got no mass to shift and doesnt have a lot of drag to overcome. in addition it only fulfils a single role... its a 2 seat sports car. end of. something like an M3 or C63 AMG is a bit more barn door in the aero department, weighs considerably more thanks to all the crap they put in them and not only is it a bit of a sports car, its a family run-about as well. its very much apples to oranges here. people should maybe compare the CTS-V/CTS-V wagon against big engined german cars.

and your right about ferrari.... their engines are complex and expensive because they can afford to be, people will still pay them the coin for it no matter what....even if it had pistons forged from diamonds.
 

awdrifter

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Fuel is still comparatively cheap in the US, so making a cheap and large displacement engine makes sense for the US market. It's not like you Europeans will ever see this engine in Europe (at least in the mainstream).
 

otispunkmeyer

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good, thats a better comparison.

note, i wasnt trying to show the engine up.... i know its a good unit, it just seems more apt to compare it when used in like cars...rather than lightweight-face-melter-corvettes vs 1/2-ton-of-grantie german barges. glad to see it easily matches the german units despite being bigger and more powerful. add to that its cheaper and the fact that the CTS-V wagon owns all the other in the looks department and im sold. just wish i had the where with all to afford one!

saddly by the time im in a position to ... the V8 will be but a play thing for the millionaires...ordinary folk will be making do with solar powered baskets woven from palm leafs

our fuel is already past ?1.20 a liter....thats like yo guys paying $2 a liter, rather than what? $3.50 ish a gallon? something like that?

might as well run nice engines like this while its affordable to do so.... even my 1.9TDi is on the verge of being financially crippling and that does 51MPG! (that UK mpg btw) the bailiffs would be confiscating my life within a week if i tried to run a 6.2 V8.

having said that, my mate ran a 300C SRT8 and he managed to eek out over 20mpg (again uk) from it on a long run. thats really not bad considering 6.1 liters of engine, a car built on a old heavy E-class and barn door aero.
 
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MattD1zzl3

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Yea, consumers are stupid like that.

19 miles per gallon = Oh my GOD thats horrible!

20 miles per gallon = Wow, this car is good on gas.

Honestly, people here look at the first digit, take a look at the company who made it, and thats how they decide if the car is good on gas or not.

5.7L camaro from the ninties: Not an aluminum corvette, you wanted an example right?

23 combined MPG if i am trying to make it last. 8 if i am not. One time i blew through an entire tank of premium in less than 48 hours. :D god bless america.
 

Strelok16

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If GM is going to have an updated line of smallblock V8's, I hope the Corvette will still have one in it.

those rumors of a V6 'Vette in the future make me a sad panda.
 

H0nzik

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One time i blew through an entire tank of premium in less than 48 hours. :D god bless america.
Pfft. I'm quite sure that there's been quite a few times when I blew though a full tank of diesel in about 4 hours. Science bless Europe (mostly Germany).:tease:
 

Crazyjeeper

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Pfft. I'm quite sure that there's been quite a few times when I blew though a full tank of diesel in about 4 hours. Science bless Europe (mostly Germany).:tease:
My truck will suck down 20 gallons of gas in about 4 hours.

I win. :p
 

klankymen

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Why exactly do you people tax engines based on displacement?
Thankfully "us people" have stopped, more or less. Tax law remains the same for old cars, but for cars built in the second half of 2009 or more recently, the main factor that is taxed is the CO2 output (which is directly dependent on fuel consumption). Though what kind of cycle the government uses to test cars for CO2 output is rather arbitrary, and soon we will see manufacturers designing their cars specifically to do well on that cycle, I suppose.

But, now that displacement is only taxed lightly (less than 1/3 as much as it used to be), and CO2 is the main factor in car tax, it will be interesting to see how the corvette performs. So I shall look up the figures right now, to satisfy my own curiosity:

C6: 6.2 litre displacement, 316g/km of CO2, 13.3l/100km fuel consumption, 321kW power
ZR1: 7.1 litre displacement, 350g/km of CO2, 14l/100km fuel consumption, 377kW power
for reference, the 911 Turbo: 3.8 litre displacement, 272 g/km of CO2, 11.6l/100km 368kW power

Old tax system:
C6: ?418.50 / year
ZR1: ?479.25 / year
Turbo: ?256.50 / year

New tax system:
C6: ?124 displacement tax + ?392 CO2 tax = ?516.00 / year
ZR1: ?142 displacement tax + ?460 CO2 tax = ?602.00 / year
Turbo: ?76 displacement tax + ?304 CO2 tax = ?380.00 / year

So, in conclusion, even with displacement playing a much smaller role in taxation, the V8 still remains the much costlier engine due to higher fuel consumption & CO2 output. Not that I care, I still want one - just can't afford one.
 

MattD1zzl3

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This was just in everyday commute mode, are you sure you we'rent on some long distance burn? :D Anyway its still impressive. Keep warming the earth people!
 
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