GM - Our Electric Future is... we're going to show you...in just a bit...

Momentum57

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There is. Unfortunately to do so you have to convince stockholders to begin hating money.
Yet GM is giving this exclusive EV preview to Wall Street
The event was meant to woo Wall Street into buying into the automaker’s plans
GM stock is at its lowest since 2013 and it's downturn began June 2019 so it's not the novel virus it's a trend.

The only way GM (or any of the big manufacturers really) could rally change EV market is by selling their EVs as loss leaders
I don't think they need to be less expensive than the competition just compelling. Bundle in home install of fast charger stations or group networks of charging companies with exclusive free locations...

I think it's two issues the companies face:
One - Uneducated population Ford’s Cannis cites an interesting statistic:
"Forty-two percent of Americans think electric vehicles still require gas to run.”
Even once they get the idea it's all electric you got them doing something they hate MATH. Cost savings compared to gasoline means there isn't one gasoline car that would be less expensive to own. That said see if they can figure out gas would have to be at .30-.60¢ a gallon to performance of EVs. (It took me half a dozen webpages and multiple scratch pads)

Two- Charging infrastructure. It's actually easy to find chargers around the things I'm going to. I'm surprised how good the infrastructure is for a small number of lucky early adopted EV buyers. The infrastructure would suck if tommorow there were 20x the number of EVs. However; EVgo, Charge Point, PlugShare, SemaConnect, ElectrifyAmerica... People who don't have EVs have no idea which map to look at before they buy the car AND more MATH!

On level three it's like 30min to fill even the largest batteries and most are going to just do a quick 10min for 50miles get home and charge overnight.

My suggestion would be for GM to build an exclusive charging network, with hotel hospitality lounge, think first class lounge, or a Starbucks that won't sell to you unless you own a GM.

GM is trying to be a car company when wall street is hoping they can be a tech company and the only way they evolve the EV market means they got to do all of it cars, tech, and bring hot cocoa
 
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gaasc

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Two- Charging infrastructure. It's actually easy to find chargers around the things I'm going to. I'm surprised how good the infrastructure is for a small number of lucky early adopted EV buyers. The infrastructure would suck if tommorow there were 20x the number of EVs. However; EVgo, Charge Point, PlugShare, SemaConnect, ElectrifyAmerica... People who don't have EVs have no idea which map to look at before they buy the car AND more MATH!
That's as maybe, but your experience may not be representative of other people. Not to mention that, so far, EV adoption has grossly outpaced infrastructure growth. It will be ludicrous to think this will always be the case, but it is at present still a constraining factor. Not only on the US either, see Harry Metcalfe's adventures in electric car charging for an example.

That is not to say that they are not botching this or that it isn't the latest of a long list of things to have pause for concern over GM. However "It works for me and will for everyone sometime in the future" is perhaps not the correct mindset.
 

prizrak

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Even once they get the idea it's all electric you got them doing something they hate MATH. Cost savings compared to gasoline means there isn't one gasoline car that would be less expensive to own. That said see if they can figure out gas would have to be at .30-.60¢ a gallon to performance of EVs. (It took me half a dozen webpages and multiple scratch pads)
Three things on that, I did the math some time ago comparing an electric Focus to a gasoline one and break even point was something like 6 years of ownership. Of course it’s hard to compare since gas/electricity prices fluctuate.

Then you have to remember that the cost of ICE is more spread out, a Bolt starts at 37k, while a Cruze (I think they are roughly same size) is 18, that’s a huge cost to eat up front, even spread out in monthly payments.

Lastly widespread EV adoption would cause a dip in gas tax revenues which means government is going to start introducing some sort of extra tax on EVs to make up that difference making running costs much closer than they are now. (Oregon already tried to do this a few years ago because of hybrids)

On level three it's like 30min to fill even the largest batteries and most are going to just do a quick 10min for 50miles get home and charge overnight.
Ignoring that even 10 mins is still roughly twice the time it takes me to refill the 20 gallon tank in the Xterra, you are assuming at-home charging. That’s a major barrier to EV adoption, many people don’t have anywhere to put a charger, like me for example.
I don't think they need to be less expensive than the competition just compelling. Bundle in home install of fast charger stations or group networks of charging companies with exclusive free locations...
EVs are simply too expensive up front compared to ICE, cheapest is a Kia Soul at 36k while cheapest ICE is the Versa Sedan is 13. For the price of an eSoul you could get a regular Soul (20k) AND the Versa (I’m ignoring govt rebate/credit since they are poised to run out soon).
IMO for EVs to start seeing growth they have to start getting much closer to ICE cars in up front costs. Otherwise it’s way too difficult of a sell to the average Joe.
 

Momentum57

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Harry Metcalfe's adventures in electric car charging for an example.
I think ol Harry went a lil heavy on the hyperbole. I watched the Jaguar episode and I think he's a bit of a lier too. Out of order issues I have: Pulls into a Tesla station makes a big deal that "there is no one there" but there are two cars charging. Ok, there are more open. Pulls into a station that's full. Now that was just him passing by. Why go there if it's full? Oh right he didnt look on the dash if the station was available.


I know it's so hard to program a tv now their making you do a small one in your car with frequent and favorite charge stations. But then he makes a big deal of creating an account and downloading an app.


I admit that if you can't go online and fill in your name and address your sunk because while some will send you a card you still need an account. I also admit if you can't download an app good luck in the real world. This is why I suggested the exclusive charge network not because of lack of capacity but conveniently taking away signing up for third party companies.

grossly outpaced infrastructure growth
I don't know I drove a Tesla X through Northern California from San Francisco to Napa didn't have an issue. The partner has a Nissan Leaf and I went half with my plug in Clarity. Denver to Boulder yeah it's liberal but plenty of open chargers. I think it's that people just like saying infrastructure.

Of course it’s hard to compare since gas/electricity prices fluctuate.
Harry actually did a good job of it

means government is going to start introducing some sort of extra tax on EVs to make up that difference making running costs much closer than they are now. (Oregon already tried to do this a few years ago because of hybrids)
Your right and that worry that they might is much more fear inducing than the tax you pay at the pump because it hasn't happened for the vast majority and you'd pay it in a lump.

Ignoring that even 10 mins is still roughly twice the time it takes me to refill the 20 gallon tank in the Xterra, you are assuming at-home charging. That’s a major barrier to EV adoption, many people don’t have anywhere to put a charger, like me for example.
I agree if you live in an apartment without an EV charging garage it's not right for you. As far as the charge time, you get a coffee, take a poo... I'm not saying it isn't a change in routine if your charging out of your home area. That said it's not as prohibitive a time suck; consider that Alex Roy did the Cannonball run in 50 hours, and a Swiss family in a Tesla did it in 48.

EVs are simply too expensive up front compared (I’m ignoring govt rebate/credit since they are poised to run out soon).
Why are they going to run out? I mean yes Tesla and GM have met the 200,000 sold but Nissan’s full incentive should remain in effect at least until 2021.

Beyond that, the next closest current EV makers, BMW and Volkswagen, should retain their full credits through 2023. Even with other brands getting into the EV business in earnest over the coming years, most automakers should be eligible for the tax bonus through at least through 2024 or 2025.

My boyfriend's Leaf cost about 21k with tax credits the similarly spec Versa would have been 24k (alot of bundled options on the Leaf that wouldn't be found on base Versa)

--- where I'm coming from

GM is hyping their EV tech because Wall Street is looking at them as America's only hope. My point is sell their stock now or if you believe 30. I don't think they have a trick up their sleeve just incremental improvement.

The arguments against EV cars comes down to style and convenience... if you like grills or want to make it an inconvenience like Harry it won't really work for you.

GM styling is a personal taste but they should be working on convenience.
 
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prizrak

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Harry actually did a good job of it
I'm actually not aware of Harry but it sounds like his a bit of a cock
Why are they going to run out?
You kind of answer your own question below :)
I mean yes Tesla and GM have met the 200,000 sold but Nissan’s full incentive should remain in effect at least until 2021.
Beyond that, the next closest current EV makers, BMW and Volkswagen, should retain their full credits through 2023. Even with other brands getting into the EV business in earnest over the coming years, most automakers should be eligible for the tax bonus through at least through 2024 or 2025.
BMW and VW are not very significant players IMO, their combined sales are still less than a 3rd of what GM sells on their own.

My boyfriend's Leaf cost about 21k with tax credits the similarly spec Versa would have been 24k (alot of bundled options on the Leaf that wouldn't be found on base Versa)
But that's exactly what I'm talking about, the Leaf is only cheaper because the tax payers are currently picking up the bill. Once that runs out (like it did for GM) the only way to compete outside of the premium space is with subsidizing those cars internally.

Just sticking with Nissans for a moment, for starting MSRP of the Leaf (31,600) only looking at cars/cross overs since that's what people would likely cross shop for. (ignoring 370z because that's just silly). It's a hard sell for someone who doesn't care to specifically get an EV, when same price can get you way more car.

You could get:
Rogue SL (FWD)
Murano - base model
Pathfinder - base model (its like $80 more)
Altima SL (AWD)
Altima Platinum (FWD) - bout $500 more


GM styling is a personal taste but they should be working on convenience.
There is a lot of convenience to an EV if you have your own charger and a huge amount of inconvenience if you don't.
 

gaasc

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The arguments against EV cars comes down to style and convenience... if you like grills or want to make it an inconvenience like Harry it won't really work for you.

GM styling is a personal taste but they should be working on convenience.
I don't mind grills and it's not a matter of me making it an inconvenience. I literally have nowhere to charge it. your diminishing of the issue to "lolhurrduur can't download app" leaves a lot of legitimate points out of reasoned debate. Things like, for instance, the quality of said app. are stations near you connected to it? what about if you do a long journey? do they report if the available sports are compatible with your car? can you get it on your particular device and, if you can, does it know if your particular car can plug to it?

That's just the app. Then you get to other fun questions such as: What will happen when the government gets smart and begins taxing EV's up the nose? will they only tax EVs or will it be for electricity as a whole? How will they regulate you not charging from a normal main on the former? what will happen on cities where even if you have one EV parking space for every apartment there's still people who will not be able to charge? what about on places where you have houses with pedestrian access only and street parking doesn't support EVs? You were able to do a run through CA in electric power alone. Great. Can you do it in Colorado? what about Arkansas or Minessota or Alabama? And that's before we get to the countries where electric cars are not even making inroads even though they should.

But that is beside the point of this thread. I just had some issues with your argument. Back on topic is the question of the exclusive charge network you propose. Great. Another thing to consider and make it so you don't buy a car and another plug not available anywhere where you would want to take it. And if you leave in an apartment better hope your landlord listens to you about your new fancy GM plug. Artificially limiting your options for charging is really not the way to go.

It is stuff like this that makes me prefer Hydrogen. Though that is too besides the point.
 
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prizrak

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your diminishing of the issue to "lolhurrduur can't download app" leaves a lot of legitimate points out of reasoned debate. Things like, for instance, the quality of said app. are stations near you connected to it? what about if you do a long journey? do they report if the available sports are compatible with your car? can you get it on your particular device and, if you can, does it know if your particular car can plug to it?
To add to that, what if you are somewhere and don’t have service? There are areas of upstate NY where I have spotty coverage and it’s a very populated part of the country.

There is also the simple fact that my Ford and my Nissan are filled at the same station as my Subaru and Audi did. Neither required any apps, research or carrying 20 different adaptors.

You can make fun of someone not being able to figure out the app, but at the end of the day need for that app is a detriment in its own way.
 
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Momentum57

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There is a lot of convenience to an EV if you have your own charger and a huge amount of inconvenience if you don't.
I don't mind grills and it's not a matter of me making it an inconvenience. I literally have nowhere to charge it.
As I said EVs might not be right for you. However; as a home owner I have a garage, and a charger. GM made a pretty big deal about their EV plans. I'm not sure as an investor or an EV buyer I find GM persuasive. However I find the vast number of issues you both have found on EV interesting.

your diminishing of the issue to "lolhurrduur can't download app" leaves a lot of legitimate points out of reasoned debate. Things like, for instance, (1) the quality of said app.(2) are stations near you connected to it? (3) what about if you do a long journey? (4) do they report if the available sports are compatible with your car? (5) can you get it on your particular device and, (6) if you can, does it know if your particular car can plug to it?
1) I don't get this "the quality of the app"? It's basically a web page for you to put general info, payment, car type, then you never really bother with it because you just wave your phone. I think phone cases makes it seem difficult but you can also use network cards too.
2) yes
3) So inside the car there's a big screen that will calculate your navigation including charging stops. I met a couple that drove their daughter from Northeast Ohio to Boulder in their EV.
4) yes
5) yes
6) yes

That's just the app. Then you get to other fun questions such as: (1) What will happen when the government gets smart and begins taxing EV's up the nose? (2) will they only tax EVs or will it be for electricity as a whole? (3) How will they regulate you not charging from a normal main on the former? (4) what will happen on cities where even if you have one EV parking space for every apartment there's still people who will not be able to charge? (5) what about on places where you have houses with pedestrian access only and street parking doesn't support EVs?
1) well we will all be raped by wolves
2) the tax will be depending on how many wolves
3) the wolves do that for them
4) wut? Doesn't matter wolf rape
5) raped by wolves and you have to walk to the rape

Honestly; cower under your afghan, they might do something in the future. PS heard they might tax ICE cars too so better get rid of those. I really didn't get (4). (5) Was basically "what if it's not right for you because you live on a house boat". So I guess youre investing in GM because of their presentation...

You were able to do a run through CA in electric power alone. Great. (1) Can you do it in Colorado? what about (2) Arkansas or (3) Minessota or (4) Alabama? And that's before we get to the countries where electric cars are not even making inroads even though they should.
1) yes
2) yes
3) yes
4) yes

Back on topic is the question of the exclusive charge network you propose. Great. (1)Another thing to consider and make it so you don't buy a car and another plug not available anywhere where you would want to take it.(2) And if you leave in an apartment better hope your landlord listens to you about your new fancy GM plug. Artificially limiting your options for charging is really not the way to go.
1) You get an adapter there are only two major plugs so it's not that difficult.
2) I'm going to go full Clarkson and suggest they work harder and buy a house. Ok like I said if you live in a house boat an EV might not be right for you.

I think an exclusive charging network on top of the 5+ networks would be more compelling and compete against Tesla with what their offering now. The execution of Maven makes me think they couldn't do it but they could link owners and renters inside the GM family. My point is from what I read I don't get GMs actually strategy. Or why they are selling it to Wall Street as innovative.

It's a hard sell for someone who doesn't care to specifically get an EV, when same price can get you way more car.
Let's say two vehicles exact same price, exact same options, just ones ICE and ones EV, and you owned a house... Would you?
 
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prizrak

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As I said EVs might not be right for you. However; as a home owner I have a garage, and a charger. GM made a pretty big deal about their EV plans. I'm not sure as an investor or an EV buyer I find GM persuasive. However I find the vast number of issues you both have found on EV interesting.
It's not so much about what works for me vs what works for you, it's more about the size of the market and what business sense (read: how much money can you make) it makes to get into that market. That's part 1.
Part 2 is what are the prospects of that market, does it make sense to sell vehicles as loss leaders to then later capitalize on higher market presence? I would say not really, seeing as how there are currently insurmountable issues that make EVs work for a relatively small faction of the market.
What does makes sense, which is what it looks like GM is doing, is getting into the luxury EV segment. It allows for higher profit margins as compared to everyday runabouts such as the Bolt since the consumer profile in that market segment is generally price insensitive. So the question really is, does Cadillac still have enough cache to be able to sell any kind of volume of EVs? Not sure about that.

What I am pretty sure about is that GM's announcement is not going to be any kind of real mainstream push for EVs.

Let's say two vehicles exact same price, exact same options, just ones ICE and ones EV, and you owned a house... Would you?
Which one comes in manual? ;)

Assuming the EV does everything I'd want out of it and both cars have parity in terms of build quality, reliability, etc... (and I can keep my Mustang) I would seriously consider it. My only issue at that point would be, how long could I keep it before there would be the major expense of replacing the battery. However if I am not expecting to keep the car long enough for that to become a problem then sure why not.
 

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1) I don't get this "the quality of the app"? It's basically a web page for you to put general info, payment, car type, then you never really bother with it because you just wave your phone. I think phone cases makes it seem difficult but you can also use network cards too.
Forgot to address this, you can absolutely have shitty apps, interface issues, coding bugs, etc...
 

Momentum57

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I know I'm jumping around last first

Forgot to address this, you can absolutely have shitty apps, interface issues, coding bugs, etc...
(tl;dr google maps)

Its been my experience you interact so little with the app it's rare to run into a bug. Not saying if you did interact with them for longer periods of time... like hours looking at the weird places chargers can be found... I have similar things happen when I play a game for extended periods. I only did it once being like "oh Key West!" I'm not driving to key west. Could also be that it doesn't have every map available but groups them in micro downloads so it wasn't slow because it took a second to update.

Routinely I'm sitting around before were going somewhere, literally spare time, maybe I'm poopin. I open google maps and search where we're going. Google gives me all the charging networks and stations and if their available. I could stop there but...

A few times I look at which network I'm going to use: then open that app. The apps for the network give you frequency times if your looking at further in time. Kinda judge if your going to bother. This is becomes one of those oh I can park a block away and theres ice cream. I could stop there...

Ok normally I do stop there but rarely I've used the Honda App to start my car and listen to music on AHA though Honda. But I also have done basically that through Alexa. I guess I'd say you can skin the cat in alot of ways. And the in car computer does all this too. Though in the car you can't search in motion even if your a passenger but I think this is all cars?. Yes/No

The actual payment is secondary (Though I watched a guy with a case that was huge like made his phone thicker than a steak slapping his phone against a charger. I'm sure it was I couldn't get through the case like wireless chargers)

My only issue at that point would be, how long could I keep it before there would be the major expense of replacing the battery. However if I am not expecting to keep the car long enough for that to become a problem then sure why not.
It's an eight year warranty 100k mile after that ive heard 3to4 grand to exchange a batter.

What I am pretty sure about is that GM's announcement is not going to be any kind of real mainstream push for EVs.
It reminds of that bit: we called you all here today to tell you we have amazing important news it's so important this news because it's amazing and that today is important because today you are here today because that amazing news is the lack of news because if we had a lack of news it would be amazing that we have brought you here today that now becomes important because we're all here today thus it's amazing important news thank you.

Which one comes in manual? ;)

Assuming the EV does everything I'd want out of it and both cars have parity in terms of build quality, reliability, etc... (and I can keep my Mustang) I would seriously consider it.
They don't have transmissions per se it's that electric offers torque on demand. Though Jays Garage had the Porsche folks who made it sound like they have a fake 2 gear manual system like a launch thingy.

Reliability is far greater because EVs are much more simple vehicles. Maintaining an EV is less because no oil. Really it's tire rotation.
 

prizrak

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(tl;dr google maps)

<snip>
I was more making a general statement that apps CAN be crappy not that Honda's app is or that there is no other way to skin that particular cat.
It reminds of that bit: we called you all here today to tell you we have amazing important news it's so important this news because it's amazing and that today is important because today you are here today because that amazing news is the lack of news because if we had a lack of news it would be amazing that we have brought you here today that now becomes important because we're all here today thus it's amazing important news thank you.
Very much yes

They don't have transmissions per se it's that electric offers torque on demand. Though Jays Garage had the Porsche folks who made it sound like they have a fake 2 gear manual system like a launch thingy.
They have a single gear transmission typically, Taycan has two so it can achieve higher top speed. I was joking though I know there isn't really any need for a traditional transmission.
Reliability is far greater because EVs are much more simple vehicles.
That's not a given at all.
Example of known common issues with Teslas:
Early S drive units.
CV joints on X
Battery coolant leakages on the X
SSDs wearing out due to overlogging causing cars to stop working
Sensors/doorhandles failing on X
Doors rusting on X because they cover the drain hole with weather stripping
Screens failing on all Teslas because they are not automotive grade

That's a significantly longer list of common issues than for BOTH my ICE cars combined.

What I'm trying to say is that EVs aren't inherently more reliable or better built than ICEs. It's always a case by case type of situation.
Maintaining an EV is less because no oil. Really it's tire rotation.
It's not quite as straight forward as that.

The only two things that EVs are better on is lack of oil and longer brake life due to regen, otherwise they have all the rest of the stuff that ICE cars have. You still have coolant, you still have suspension components that will wear, you likely have diffs/axles/cv joints, brake fluid. Tires will actually wear faster because the car is heavier, etc...

Additionally while ongoing maintenance of an EV is generally cheaper it does have one big item - the battery. I get oil changes around every 10 months (when my Mustang complains basically I do the X as well). So in 8 years of ownership I would have done oil changes around 8-9 times. Since I have cars with a lot of oil capacity* and tend to use expensive stuff my oil change is roughly $100, so let's say that's $900 in oil changes over 8 years. A single battery replacement is 3-4x that, that's definitely going to wipe out any oil change savings you might have had over that 8 years. Of course you could sell the car before then but anyone buying it would also be aware of the potential cost and your resale value is likely to be lower as a result.

*Each car takes about 2 gallons of oil, my Subaru took maybe half that so with more mainstream cars that cost goes down even further.

If I were to go for an EV I would likely lease it rather than buy it, just like with German cars I simply wouldn't want to deal with the long term costs.
 

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The only two things that EVs are better on is lack of oil and longer brake life due to regen, otherwise they have all the rest of the stuff that ICE cars have. You still have coolant, you still have suspension components that will wear, you likely have diffs/axles/cv joints, brake fluid. Tires will actually wear faster because the car is heavier, etc...

Additionally while ongoing maintenance of an EV is generally cheaper it does have one big item - the battery. I get oil changes around every 10 months (when my Mustang complains basically I do the X as well). So in 8 years of ownership I would have done oil changes around 8-9 times. Since I have cars with a lot of oil capacity* and tend to use expensive stuff my oil change is roughly $100, so let's say that's $900 in oil changes over 8 years. A single battery replacement is 3-4x that, that's definitely going to wipe out any oil change savings you might have had over that 8 years. Of course you could sell the car before then but anyone buying it would also be aware of the potential cost and your resale value is likely to be lower as a result.

*Each car takes about 2 gallons of oil, my Subaru took maybe half that so with more mainstream cars that cost goes down even further.

If I were to go for an EV I would likely lease it rather than buy it, just like with German cars I simply wouldn't want to deal with the long term costs.
You've said pretty much what I would've as a reply on previous posts. I just want to mention that electric cars do have oil. Teslas at least, but I am sure other manufacturers have a similar system. The drive units are enclosed and filled with oil. So far as I could tell, these units were not serviceable until the model 3, where they were fitted with an oil filter. This implies that SOP was to replace the drive unit.

@GRtak , I'll give it a watch. I like to see other people's experiences with them as we move closer to tipover.

@Momentum57 priz addressed most of the things I would've replied on your post. Just one point of note, you still seem to be making false equivalencies regarding electricity and fuel. Also, I worry that your first example for diminishing my points was wolves and relations wherein? Worrying about the future, especially when it comes to things that will have an overall impact, is something we're wired to do.
 

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The drive units are enclosed and filled with oil.
True, there is still going to be diff fluid and such on any car that has a diff too (not sure if all EVs do or not, in theory they don't have to have one unlike ICE).
Also, I worry that your first example for diminishing my points was wolves and relations wherein? Worrying about the future, especially when it comes to things that will have an overall impact, is something we're wired to do.
To add to this a little bit, a car is a second most expensive thing a person is likely to buy in their lifetime. Right now running costs of EVs are far lower even if the entry cost is higher but this isn't something you replace every year or even two years. Average car in the US is owned for 6 years from new, and is on the road for 10 (I think those numbers are increasing as newer cars last longer). Being hit with a huge increase in running costs 3 years into a 5 year (average car loan) and ending up upside down on it because your car's value will drop is a big concern.
 
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Momentum57

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@Momentum57 I worry that your first example for diminishing my points was wolves and relations wherein? Worrying about the future, especially when it comes to things that will have an overall impact, is something we're wired to do.
Your future is:
what about on places where you have houses with pedestrian access only and street parking doesn't support EVs?
You got me there, EVs might not be right for everyone in the future. The future of living in houses with no off street parking. I'm sorry for diminishing the validity of your point that the future might be a nightmare. I don't know how I hadn't thought of all the valid future scenarios like one day I'd buy a house with no off street parking. It changes everything, I'd be walking from my house... a distance... What if they taxed my shoes. Oh man this future stuff is alot. I mean I'm crippled with apprehension that my purchases today could be undone over night by the future that snuck up on me like a house with pedestrian access only. And shoe taxes, oh man, would I buy thicker socks, do those count? I'd prefer the wolf rape possibility than this very real and valid probability that as a pedestrian my shoes were taxed. Oh buddy

Im saying I believe your worst case scenario will happen as much as when these companies like GM walk out and say our EV plans will light up the world... I'm guessing reality will be much more mundane.
 
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prizrak

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The future of living in houses with no off street parking.
This might not be a thing in Denver, but very is in NYC, Jersey City, Union City (NJ), SF, Boston, etc... The more high density the area is the more high rises with no off street parking you will see and since population is growing... Well you get the idea.

Mind you this is just US which is relatively sparsely populated compared to the rest of the developed world, these issues are much more prevalent in Europe and Asia where population density of NYC is the norm rather than exception like it is here.

Having said that, unless there is going to be governmental stupidity mandating BEVs like they are supposedly* doing in the UK and Norway I don't think it would be a massive barrier to BEV adoption simply because people aren't going to buy a car that doesn't work for them very well.

*While they talk about banning new ICE sales this is one of those I'll believe it when I see it things since they are likely going to have massive push back from their own citizens.
 

gaasc

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Im saying I believe your worst case scenario will happen as much as when these companies like GM walk out and say our EV plans will light up the world... I'm guessing reality will be much more mundane.
This is fair. could've done with much less passive-aggresiveness. I do expect the scope of these issues becoming more clear as sales of electric cars plateau on high-density areas (as represented in a percentage against all car sales) and regulation is drafted regarding the loss of income due to lower overall fuel consumption.
 

Momentum57

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Having said that, unless there is going to be governmental stupidity mandating BEVs like they are supposedly* doing in the UK and Norway I don't think it would be a massive barrier to BEV adoption simply because people aren't going to buy a car that doesn't work for them very well.
I imagine that car companies will go full electric before government mandates.

I think adoption of EVs in cities will grow as range and options grow. What I was hearing sounded like: "the government will swoop in and relocate you to a house boat what ya going to do then with your EV?". Let's face it if you live on Manhattan and you own a car it's probably kept at your second house. If you live on Staten Island, you probably hate your life, but you're smart enough to weigh pro and cons of car ownership.

This is fair. could've done with much less passive-aggresiveness.
I took some of the issues as preposterous if not a hyperbole. Then again I though the buck stops at the President and just watched him say maybe he didn't cut budgets, he doesn't remember.
 
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