- Apr 2, 2007
- No, sleep, till, BROOKLYN
- 11 Xterra Pro-4x, 12 'stang GT
There is. Unfortunately to do so you have to convince stockholders to begin hating money.
GM stock is at its lowest since 2013 and it's downturn began June 2019 so it's not the novel virus it's a trend.The event was meant to woo Wall Street into buying into the automaker’s plans
The only way GM (or any of the big manufacturers really) could rally change EV market is by selling their EVs as loss leaders
Even once they get the idea it's all electric you got them doing something they hate MATH. Cost savings compared to gasoline means there isn't one gasoline car that would be less expensive to own. That said see if they can figure out gas would have to be at .30-.60¢ a gallon to performance of EVs. (It took me half a dozen webpages and multiple scratch pads)"Forty-two percent of Americans think electric vehicles still require gas to run.”
Two- Charging infrastructure. It's actually easy to find chargers around the things I'm going to. I'm surprised how good the infrastructure is for a small number of lucky early adopted EV buyers. The infrastructure would suck if tommorow there were 20x the number of EVs. However; EVgo, Charge Point, PlugShare, SemaConnect, ElectrifyAmerica... People who don't have EVs have no idea which map to look at before they buy the car AND more MATH!
Three things on that, I did the math some time ago comparing an electric Focus to a gasoline one and break even point was something like 6 years of ownership. Of course it’s hard to compare since gas/electricity prices fluctuate.Even once they get the idea it's all electric you got them doing something they hate MATH. Cost savings compared to gasoline means there isn't one gasoline car that would be less expensive to own. That said see if they can figure out gas would have to be at .30-.60¢ a gallon to performance of EVs. (It took me half a dozen webpages and multiple scratch pads)
Ignoring that even 10 mins is still roughly twice the time it takes me to refill the 20 gallon tank in the Xterra, you are assuming at-home charging. That’s a major barrier to EV adoption, many people don’t have anywhere to put a charger, like me for example.On level three it's like 30min to fill even the largest batteries and most are going to just do a quick 10min for 50miles get home and charge overnight.
EVs are simply too expensive up front compared to ICE, cheapest is a Kia Soul at 36k while cheapest ICE is the Versa Sedan is 13. For the price of an eSoul you could get a regular Soul (20k) AND the Versa (I’m ignoring govt rebate/credit since they are poised to run out soon).I don't think they need to be less expensive than the competition just compelling. Bundle in home install of fast charger stations or group networks of charging companies with exclusive free locations...
Harry Metcalfe's adventures in electric car charging for an example.
grossly outpaced infrastructure growth
Of course it’s hard to compare since gas/electricity prices fluctuate.
means government is going to start introducing some sort of extra tax on EVs to make up that difference making running costs much closer than they are now. (Oregon already tried to do this a few years ago because of hybrids)
Ignoring that even 10 mins is still roughly twice the time it takes me to refill the 20 gallon tank in the Xterra, you are assuming at-home charging. That’s a major barrier to EV adoption, many people don’t have anywhere to put a charger, like me for example.
EVs are simply too expensive up front compared (I’m ignoring govt rebate/credit since they are poised to run out soon).
I'm actually not aware of Harry but it sounds like his a bit of a cockHarry actually did a good job of it
You kind of answer your own question belowWhy are they going to run out?
I mean yes Tesla and GM have met the 200,000 sold but Nissan’s full incentive should remain in effect at least until 2021.
BMW and VW are not very significant players IMO, their combined sales are still less than a 3rd of what GM sells on their own.Beyond that, the next closest current EV makers, BMW and Volkswagen, should retain their full credits through 2023. Even with other brands getting into the EV business in earnest over the coming years, most automakers should be eligible for the tax bonus through at least through 2024 or 2025.
But that's exactly what I'm talking about, the Leaf is only cheaper because the tax payers are currently picking up the bill. Once that runs out (like it did for GM) the only way to compete outside of the premium space is with subsidizing those cars internally.My boyfriend's Leaf cost about 21k with tax credits the similarly spec Versa would have been 24k (alot of bundled options on the Leaf that wouldn't be found on base Versa)
There is a lot of convenience to an EV if you have your own charger and a huge amount of inconvenience if you don't.GM styling is a personal taste but they should be working on convenience.
The arguments against EV cars comes down to style and convenience... if you like grills or want to make it an inconvenience like Harry it won't really work for you.
GM styling is a personal taste but they should be working on convenience.
To add to that, what if you are somewhere and don’t have service? There are areas of upstate NY where I have spotty coverage and it’s a very populated part of the country.your diminishing of the issue to "lolhurrduur can't download app" leaves a lot of legitimate points out of reasoned debate. Things like, for instance, the quality of said app. are stations near you connected to it? what about if you do a long journey? do they report if the available sports are compatible with your car? can you get it on your particular device and, if you can, does it know if your particular car can plug to it?
There is a lot of convenience to an EV if you have your own charger and a huge amount of inconvenience if you don't.
I don't mind grills and it's not a matter of me making it an inconvenience. I literally have nowhere to charge it.
your diminishing of the issue to "lolhurrduur can't download app" leaves a lot of legitimate points out of reasoned debate. Things like, for instance, (1) the quality of said app.(2) are stations near you connected to it? (3) what about if you do a long journey? (4) do they report if the available sports are compatible with your car? (5) can you get it on your particular device and, (6) if you can, does it know if your particular car can plug to it?
That's just the app. Then you get to other fun questions such as: (1) What will happen when the government gets smart and begins taxing EV's up the nose? (2) will they only tax EVs or will it be for electricity as a whole? (3) How will they regulate you not charging from a normal main on the former? (4) what will happen on cities where even if you have one EV parking space for every apartment there's still people who will not be able to charge? (5) what about on places where you have houses with pedestrian access only and street parking doesn't support EVs?
You were able to do a run through CA in electric power alone. Great. (1) Can you do it in Colorado? what about (2) Arkansas or (3) Minessota or (4) Alabama? And that's before we get to the countries where electric cars are not even making inroads even though they should.
Back on topic is the question of the exclusive charge network you propose. Great. (1)Another thing to consider and make it so you don't buy a car and another plug not available anywhere where you would want to take it.(2) And if you leave in an apartment better hope your landlord listens to you about your new fancy GM plug. Artificially limiting your options for charging is really not the way to go.
It's a hard sell for someone who doesn't care to specifically get an EV, when same price can get you way more car.
It's not so much about what works for me vs what works for you, it's more about the size of the market and what business sense (read: how much money can you make) it makes to get into that market. That's part 1.As I said EVs might not be right for you. However; as a home owner I have a garage, and a charger. GM made a pretty big deal about their EV plans. I'm not sure as an investor or an EV buyer I find GM persuasive. However I find the vast number of issues you both have found on EV interesting.
Which one comes in manual?Let's say two vehicles exact same price, exact same options, just ones ICE and ones EV, and you owned a house... Would you?
Forgot to address this, you can absolutely have shitty apps, interface issues, coding bugs, etc...1) I don't get this "the quality of the app"? It's basically a web page for you to put general info, payment, car type, then you never really bother with it because you just wave your phone. I think phone cases makes it seem difficult but you can also use network cards too.
Forgot to address this, you can absolutely have shitty apps, interface issues, coding bugs, etc...
My only issue at that point would be, how long could I keep it before there would be the major expense of replacing the battery. However if I am not expecting to keep the car long enough for that to become a problem then sure why not.
What I am pretty sure about is that GM's announcement is not going to be any kind of real mainstream push for EVs.
Which one comes in manual?
Assuming the EV does everything I'd want out of it and both cars have parity in terms of build quality, reliability, etc... (and I can keep my Mustang) I would seriously consider it.
I was more making a general statement that apps CAN be crappy not that Honda's app is or that there is no other way to skin that particular cat.I know I'm jumping around last first
(tl;dr google maps)
Very much yesIt reminds of that bit: we called you all here today to tell you we have amazing important news it's so important this news because it's amazing and that today is important because today you are here today because that amazing news is the lack of news because if we had a lack of news it would be amazing that we have brought you here today that now becomes important because we're all here today thus it's amazing important news thank you.
They have a single gear transmission typically, Taycan has two so it can achieve higher top speed. I was joking though I know there isn't really any need for a traditional transmission.They don't have transmissions per se it's that electric offers torque on demand. Though Jays Garage had the Porsche folks who made it sound like they have a fake 2 gear manual system like a launch thingy.
That's not a given at all.Reliability is far greater because EVs are much more simple vehicles.
It's not quite as straight forward as that.Maintaining an EV is less because no oil. Really it's tire rotation.
The only two things that EVs are better on is lack of oil and longer brake life due to regen, otherwise they have all the rest of the stuff that ICE cars have. You still have coolant, you still have suspension components that will wear, you likely have diffs/axles/cv joints, brake fluid. Tires will actually wear faster because the car is heavier, etc...
Additionally while ongoing maintenance of an EV is generally cheaper it does have one big item - the battery. I get oil changes around every 10 months (when my Mustang complains basically I do the X as well). So in 8 years of ownership I would have done oil changes around 8-9 times. Since I have cars with a lot of oil capacity* and tend to use expensive stuff my oil change is roughly $100, so let's say that's $900 in oil changes over 8 years. A single battery replacement is 3-4x that, that's definitely going to wipe out any oil change savings you might have had over that 8 years. Of course you could sell the car before then but anyone buying it would also be aware of the potential cost and your resale value is likely to be lower as a result.
*Each car takes about 2 gallons of oil, my Subaru took maybe half that so with more mainstream cars that cost goes down even further.
If I were to go for an EV I would likely lease it rather than buy it, just like with German cars I simply wouldn't want to deal with the long term costs.
True, there is still going to be diff fluid and such on any car that has a diff too (not sure if all EVs do or not, in theory they don't have to have one unlike ICE).The drive units are enclosed and filled with oil.
To add to this a little bit, a car is a second most expensive thing a person is likely to buy in their lifetime. Right now running costs of EVs are far lower even if the entry cost is higher but this isn't something you replace every year or even two years. Average car in the US is owned for 6 years from new, and is on the road for 10 (I think those numbers are increasing as newer cars last longer). Being hit with a huge increase in running costs 3 years into a 5 year (average car loan) and ending up upside down on it because your car's value will drop is a big concern.Also, I worry that your first example for diminishing my points was wolves and relations wherein? Worrying about the future, especially when it comes to things that will have an overall impact, is something we're wired to do.
You got me there, EVs might not be right for everyone in the future. The future of living in houses with no off street parking. I'm sorry for diminishing the validity of your point that the future might be a nightmare. I don't know how I hadn't thought of all the valid future scenarios like one day I'd buy a house with no off street parking. It changes everything, I'd be walking from my house... a distance... What if they taxed my shoes. Oh man this future stuff is alot. I mean I'm crippled with apprehension that my purchases today could be undone over night by the future that snuck up on me like a house with pedestrian access only. And shoe taxes, oh man, would I buy thicker socks, do those count? I'd prefer the wolf rape possibility than this very real and valid probability that as a pedestrian my shoes were taxed. Oh buddywhat about on places where you have houses with pedestrian access only and street parking doesn't support EVs?
This might not be a thing in Denver, but very is in NYC, Jersey City, Union City (NJ), SF, Boston, etc... The more high density the area is the more high rises with no off street parking you will see and since population is growing... Well you get the idea.The future of living in houses with no off street parking.
Im saying I believe your worst case scenario will happen as much as when these companies like GM walk out and say our EV plans will light up the world... I'm guessing reality will be much more mundane.
Having said that, unless there is going to be governmental stupidity mandating BEVs like they are supposedly* doing in the UK and Norway I don't think it would be a massive barrier to BEV adoption simply because people aren't going to buy a car that doesn't work for them very well.
This is fair. could've done with much less passive-aggresiveness.