Gun politics thread

narf said:
The abundance of weapons in stopped cars contributes to a stressful and therefore potentially shooty situation.
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Bull. Shit.


narf said:
That being said, the main factor probably is racism :(
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How the hell did you come to that conclusion?
 
prizrak said:
I dont quite see the relevance to gun politics here, no laws are proposed to take cop's guns away.
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You really don't see this sparking another huge debate about carry-on licenses, black lives, police brutality (perhaps the mere fact they carry guns)?

Didn't see it anywhere else which fitted more... we don't have a News thread.
 
You're right, that's more fitting... but oh well. Still believe it's relevant to this thread.
 
Continuing this in the proper thread.
 
narf said:
The abundance of weapons in stopped cars contributes to a stressful and therefore potentially shooty situation.

That being said, the main factor probably is racism :(
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You got it right on your second try. The vast majority of people shot by police are of an ethnic minority - regardless of whether or not they are armed legally or illegally.
 
LeVeL said:
How the hell did you come to that conclusion?
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By means of statistics, observation and common sense? Not to say that racial bias is not 'justified' (induced) by the other type of statistics that police deal with first hand on an everyday basis. This is a complicated situation, there's no simple solution to this issue.
 
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So your argument is ... what exactly? I don't see how the events in Dallas have anything to do with that saying. Clearly someone who starts shooting into a crowd isn't a good guy.

Is it a surprise that something like this happens when policy makers declare "war" and mobilize police with military surplus weapons, armor, and vehicles? The police have been using "war" language in their doctrines and procedures since the 1970s. They treat the streets like a war zone and see the public as the enemy. Take a look at some of the Internet comments from cops to see the mentality of many departments, combine that with disproportionate killings of black men and the lack of accountability and, honestly, I'm surprised I hasn't happened sooner.
 
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LeVeL said:
He's probably including suicides. Despite all our guns, our suicide rate is lower than in most European countries but acknowledging that doesn't help with the anti agenda :rolleyes:
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In your own words,
LeVeL said:
Bull. Shit.
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OECD figures: https://data.oecd.org/healthstat/suicide-rates.htm - If I'm counting correctly, ten European countries are "ahead" of the US while fourteen are not.
WHO figures: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_...t_by_the_World_Health_Organization_.282012.29 15 "ahead", 23 not.

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prizrak said:
Where did you get that number from?
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https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_firearm-related_death_rate suggests 10.something per 100000 annually in the US, at 300+ million that's way over 30k a year, around 60% of those are suicides. #2 after Brazil out of the G20, #11 in that incomplete global list.
 
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"Gun-related deaths" is a bullshit number to work from to begin with. It includes suicides, it also includes defensive shootings and justified shootings. If you are making an argument for gun control, then you should also remove shootings by prohibited persons since no gun law would prevent them from getting or carrying a gun, they are already breaking the laws we have.
 
narf said:
In your own words,

OECD figures: https://data.oecd.org/healthstat/suicide-rates.htm - If I'm counting correctly, ten European countries are "ahead" of the US while fourteen are not.
WHO figures: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_...t_by_the_World_Health_Organization_.282012.29 15 "ahead", 23 not.
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You are technically correct, the best kind of correct. Though it's pretty clear that availability of guns is not a deciding factor in suicides, hence irrelevant to the discussion. (Well suicides in general are)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_firearm-related_death_rate suggests 10.something per 100000 annually in the US, at 300+ million that's way over 30k a year, around 60% of those are suicides. #2 after Brazil out of the G20, #11 in that incomplete global list.
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That's the key there isn't it

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Blind_Io said:
"Gun-related deaths" is a bullshit number to work from to begin with. It includes suicides, it also includes defensive shootings and justified shootings. If you are making an argument for gun control, then you should also remove shootings by prohibited persons since no gun law would prevent them from getting or carrying a gun, they are already breaking the laws we have.
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Kind of what I was getting at.
 
prizrak said:
You are technically correct, the best kind of correct. Though it's pretty clear that availability of guns is not a deciding factor in suicides, hence irrelevant to the discussion. (Well suicides in general are)


That's the key there isn't it

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Kind of what I was getting at.
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All I'm doing is pointing out level-facts.
 
LeVeL said:
No, you're just being narf. I said "lower than most" and you countered with just under half, entirely missing the point.
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It's higher than most, not lower than most. Not sure what's to miss there.

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prizrak said:
That doesn't really add to the discussion does it?
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Actually, it does. Level basically says "we have lots of guns but low suicide rate, look at those stats" when those stats state the opposite. Lots in this thread is opinion, feeling, etc. - but when there are facts, I think they should be correct.
"Despite all our guns, our suicide rate is lower than in most European countries but acknowledging that doesn't help with the anti agenda" - there's nothing to acknowledge if the premise is wrong.





Stating obviously wrong facts helps nobody. Throwing a tantrum about "just being narf" when pointing out wrong facts doesn't help anyone either.
 
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narf said:
It's higher than most, not lower than most. Not sure what's to miss there.

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Actually, it does. Level basically says "we have lots of guns but low suicide rate, look at those stats" when those stats state the opposite. Lots in this thread is opinion, feeling, etc. - but when there are facts, I think they should be correct.
"Despite all our guns, our suicide rate is lower than in most European countries but acknowledging that doesn't help with the anti agenda" - there's nothing to acknowledge if the premise is wrong.





Stating obviously wrong facts helps nobody. Throwing a tantrum about "just being narf" when pointing out wrong facts doesn't help anyone either.
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And the fact that there has been a huge leap in veteran and service-related suicide since Gulf War I has nothing to do with it? I've seen how pathetic military and VA services are for mental health - we have lost more servicemen and veterans to suicide than we have in combat, and more than were lost in 9/11. Trust me, someone who has decided to die will find a way, someone who has decided to make a suicidal gesture will not use a gun to begin with.
 
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