Gun politics thread

Are you proposing a nationwide gun confiscation then?
Yes I do. If nobody owns guns there is no need to have one for self defense.

Replace the word "gun" with "religion" in your post and then tell me if you still think that it's ok to blanket punish many for actions of few.
Being a science-guy I would also "ban" religion, or at least relegate it to a less important role. And seing the amount of suffering that was caused and still is being caused in the name of some supreme being, I think it would do good if some people re-evaluate what's important and what isn't. Basically you can be a decent human being without being told so by your god and without being motivated by some sort of afterlife (or the fear of hell if you misbehave). What matters is how we treat other people based on them being other people, not based on what was written thousands of years ago somewhere.

Also, why am I not surprised by the jump from guns to religion? After all, violence and strong beliefs go so well together.

And before you ask: I'm not an atheist. I just find it hard to belief in something there is no real evidence for. I guess there must have been something to get the whole universe (the big bang) started but after that it sorted itself out. We are just the consequence of a lot of lucky circumstances (but given the sheer amount of stars and planets in the universe "life" has to happen every now and then, even though the probability is pretty slim. But "very small number" multiplied by "very large number" still gets you somewhere). I don't know if there is a divine being out there, watching (over) us. I don't know if there is an afterlife. Maybe there is, maybe there isn't. I'll find out when I get there. Maybe my actions in this world have consequences "in the next life", maybe they don't. Does this scare me or do I let my actions be dictated by the fear of not being worthy "to go to heaven"? No, I simply try to treat people with respect because I in return would like to be treated with respect.

I don't want to take away people's beliefs, but there should be a clear separation between religion and what is actually going on in this world, right now and right here. Don't let your actions be dictated by religion, especially if your religion tells you to spread your belief onto others (because there is no "right" religion in my mind. how could we even know which was the right one? if you're born in the western world you probably think that christianity is the way to go. If you're born in the middle east, chances are you'll become a muslim. And so on). Also problematic: when religion tells you to blow shit up (or at least if you think that's what it's trying to tell you).
 
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Again though, if you don't want to carry a gun - I couldn't care less; don't carry one. Just stop trying to force me not to carry one.

Same article states that among gun assaults where the victim had at least some chance to resist, this adjusted odds ratio increased to 5.45.

Which shows that your "I carry a gun for protection" argument is not only flawed, but the reality is the opposite of your perception.

You are basically defeating your own argument here, either:
A) Cultural differences can account in difference in violent crime (if they account for difference in suicide it stands to reason that they could account for other behaviors as well) OR
B) Seeing as how all western cultures are pretty close in how they treat death and suicide (Austria and Germany have a huge difference in suicides and are not exactly polar opposites culturally) availability of firearms is not a deciding factor in suicide rates.

Either way it would seem that guns are incidental to violence rather than cause of it.

So lets remove cultural differences and compare stats within the same country - which is what I did. But you don't need to take my word for it:

Guns and suicide: A fatal link
State-wide gun ownership tied to suicide deaths
It?s Simple: Fewer Guns, Fewer Suicides
 
Gun politics thread

Yes I do. If nobody owns guns there is no need to have one for self defense.
What if the attacker is physically more potent than you and you have no escape routes? What if you are defending someone else and need the range to take out the attacker before they get to their victim? It's not a simple one-on-one high noon duel dude.

Being a science-guy I would also "ban" religion, or at least relegate it to a less important role. And seing the amount of suffering that was caused and still is being caused in the name of some supreme being, I think it would do good if some people re-evaluate what's important and what isn't. Basically you can be a decent human being without being told so by your god and without being motivated by some sort of afterlife (or the fear of hell if you misbehave). What matters is how we treat other people based on them being other people, not based on what was written thousands of years ago somewhere.

Also, why am I not surprised by the jump from guns to religion? After all, violence and strong beliefs go so well together.

And before you ask: I'm not an atheist. I just find it hard to belief in something there is no real evidence for. I guess there must have been something to get the whole universe (the big bang) started but after that it sorted itself out. We are just the consequence of a lot of lucky circumstances (but given the sheer amount of stars and planets in the universe "life" has to happen every now and then, even though the probability is pretty slim. But "very small number" multiplied by "very large number" still gets you somewhere). I don't know if there is a divine being out there, watching (over) us. I don't know if there is an afterlife. Maybe there is, maybe there isn't. I'll find out when I get there. Maybe my actions in this world have consequences "in the next life", maybe they don't. Does this scare me or do I let my actions be dictated by the fear of not being worthy "to go to heaven"? No, I simply try to treat people with respect because I in return would like to be treated with respect.

I don't want to take away people's beliefs, but there should be a clear separation between religion and what is actually going on in this world, right now and right here. Don't let your actions be dictated by religion, especially if your religion tells you to spread your belief onto others (because there is no "right" religion in my mind. how could we even know which was the right one? if you're born in the western world you probably think that christianity is the way to go. If you're born in the middle east, chances are you'll become a muslim. And so on). Also problematic: when religion tells you to blow shit up (or at least if you think that's what it's trying to tell you).

You jumped to many conclusions and completely missed the point. I'm not religious nor do I believe in any higher power, yet I am cognizant of the fact that there are literally billions of religious people who have not done any harm to anyone and a tiny fraction has.

Also millions killed in Rwanda, Sierra Leone, WW2 and Stalin's purges to name a few were not killed in the name of any religion. Just like with guns, religion is not a precursor to violent behavior.
So lets remove cultural differences and compare stats within the same country - which is what I did. But you don't need to take my word for it:

Guns and suicide: A fatal link
State-wide gun ownership tied to suicide deaths
It?s Simple: Fewer Guns, Fewer Suicides[/QUOTE]
Again it's not a proper comparison of culture is a factor because different states have differences in culture and also differences in education and living standard. Even if it's true I will say again I don't care about suicides in terms of gun control. Wanna off yourself? Go right ahead, it's your right.

Let's put it bluntly, self destruction of some people should in no way affect others rights. Just like alcoholism's existence does not preclude alcohol from being legal.
 
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Are you proposing a nationwide gun confiscation then?
Yes I do. If nobody owns guns there is no need to have one for self defense.
That would involve taking the unprecedented step of repealing one of the amendments that make up the Bill of Rights. This would require two thirds of both the House and the Senate to approve of such a change; 38 states would have to ratify this change.

Next, the people would be asked to voluntarily turn in their firearms. For reference, in the most anti-gun states, such as NY and CT, requirements to register "assault weapons" had compliance rates of under 10%.

Next, door-to-door searches would have to be conducted in order to collect the firearms that were not turned in voluntarily. This would require going against several Constitutional amendments, such as the 4th, 5th, and 14th. This would also require a sizable force to actually conduct the searches; since that force would probably be law enforcement or military, they would have to violate their oaths to defend the Constitution.

Finally, the military would have to be willing to engage in battle against American citizens that would take up arms to defend their rights. For the record, there are about 100 million people in possession of 300 million guns.

Personally, my stand on this is unchanged from the last time this idea was brought up: if you want my guns, come and fucking take them.
 
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What if the attacker is physically more potent than you and you have no escape routes? What if you are defending someone else and need the range to take out the attacker before they get to their victim? It's not a simple one-on-one high noon duel dude.

You jumped to many conclusions and completely missed the point. I'm not religious nor do I believe in any higher power, yet I am cognizant of the fact that there are literally billions of religious people who have not done any harm to anyone and a tiny fraction has.

(...)
Yeah but what if the attacker also has a gun? Get a bigger gun yourself? The "gun for self defense" scenario only works as long as only "the good guys" get guns. Yes there are probably situations where a gun would come in handy, but I can also think of situations where you would be worse off: what if "the attacker", who was previously unarmend, takes away your gun? He or She might be wore willing to use it than you are, and what might have been a simple, if unpleasant, mugging, suddenly turns into something much worse.

To me, guns don't save people. Guns only lead to more guns, until both/all sides are armed to the teeth, and the moment something goes wrong, it *really* goes wrong. How many examples are there of "Mass Shooting stopped by random civilian that happened to carry a gun and shoot down the bad guy(s)"?

Sometimes a few idiots unfortunately spoil something for everybody. Otherwise we could remove any and all security from airports and stop screening all cargo that enters the country, because, man, sometimes "it just happens, and most of the people aren't that bad". But the problem aren't the 99.999999% percent of sane people. The problem are the tiny fraction of nutjobs. And no longer being like "welcome to America, here is your gun" might be a start. But on the other hand, as we are going to see below, it might already be too late to change anything.


That would involve taking the unprecedented step of repealing one of the amendments that make up the Bill of Rights. This would require two thirds of both the House and the Senate to approve of such a change; 38 states would have to ratify this change.

Next, the people would be asked to voluntarily turn in their firearms. For reference, in the most anti-gun states, such as NY and CT, requirements to register "assault weapons" had compliance rates of under 10%.

Next, door-to-door searches would have to be conducted in order to collect the firearms that were not turned in voluntarily. This would require going against several Constitutional amendments, such as the 4th, 5th, and 14th. This would also require a sizable force to actually conduct the searches; since that force would probably be law enforcement or military, they would have to violate their oaths to defend the Constitution.

Finally, the military would have to be willing to engage in battle against American citizens that would take up arms to defend their rights. For the record, there are about 100 million people in possession of 300 million guns.

Personally, my stand on this is unchanged from the last time this idea was brought up: if you want my guns, come and fucking take them.

I think we all have to accept the possibility that the laws and guidelines we live by might be outdated and/or based on false premise. Laws are made by people. People can be wrong. Or maybe they were right at the time, but times changed.

However, I do see your other points. Collecting "all the guns" would be a colossal undertaking, that would be met with quite some resistance. The problem is also that there are probably just too damn many guns around to collect them all. And you'd probably "disarm" people in the wrong order.

I'm just curious, do you see a problem with 300 million guns distributed across the general population? If so, what's your idea of maybe improving the situation?


I see this statement often, but only from able-bodied men.
Don't worry, I have no "combat" experience whatsoever and I wouldn't be able to defend myself against most people. I also never had a fight in my whole life, I have never "beaten" anybody, and my body sure isn't in any way superior to others (I'm below average height, I'm not particularly strong and I wear glasses. Guess what my weaknesses are).

Even though I know that I would not last very long in a fist fight (one punch to the face, to be exact) I never felt the need to carry a weapon of any kind. The town I grew up in was totally safe, and there was basically no crime. The next big city had a couple of "bad areas" (parks where junkies go at night to get high), but since everybody knew about them you just avoided them at night. The worst I can think of where drunk people beating the crap out of each other after a party, but that's about it. And the place I live now is like even more safe. Therefore I never felt the need to be able to defend myself against anything or anyone. And again, I'm not physically imposing or anything, I'm not "left alone by default".
 
Yeah but what if the attacker also has a gun? Get a bigger gun yourself? The "gun for self defense" scenario only works as long as only "the good guys" get guns. Yes there are probably situations where a gun would come in handy, but I can also think of situations where you would be worse off: what if "the attacker", who was previously unarmend, takes away your gun? He or She might be wore willing to use it than you are, and what might have been a simple, if unpleasant, mugging, suddenly turns into something much worse.
No one is saying that if you have a gun you are 100% going to win, but gun vs no-gun certainly gives you a better chance.

To me, guns don't save people. Guns only lead to more guns, until both/all sides are armed to the teeth, and the moment something goes wrong, it *really* goes wrong. How many examples are there of "Mass Shooting stopped by random civilian that happened to carry a gun and shoot down the bad guy(s)"?
Conversely how many shootings were stopped by civilians NOT carrying a gun? Also how many mass shootings were stopped by laws against mass shootings, or carrying guns in that specific location?

Also first link on Google search for that phrase: http://controversialtimes.com/issue...hootings-were-stopped-by-good-guys-with-guns/

Sometimes a few idiots unfortunately spoil something for everybody. Otherwise we could remove any and all security from airports and stop screening all cargo that enters the country, because, man, sometimes "it just happens, and most of the people aren't that bad".
Security in airports has been proven time and again to do absolutely nothing, also here is the funny part post 9/11 every single flight has an armed air marshall on board.
But the problem aren't the 99.999999% percent of sane people.
Again you are talking about punishing that 99.999999% for what the 0.0000001% does without having any realistic impact on their behavior. To draw a parallel we don't outlaw drinking because of drunk drivers, and when we tried there were still plenty of drunk drivers.
And no longer being like "welcome to America, here is your gun" might be a start.
It's very very far from it.
 
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Don't worry, I have no "combat" experience whatsoever and I wouldn't be able to defend myself against most people. I also never had a fight in my whole life, I have never "beaten" anybody, and my body sure isn't in any way superior to others (I'm below average height, I'm not particularly strong and I wear glasses. Guess what my weaknesses are).

Even though I know that I would not last very long in a fist fight (one punch to the face, to be exact) I never felt the need to carry a weapon of any kind.

That doesn't discount my statement though. And for what it's worth, I've never felt the need to carry a gun either.
 
I guess I'll start carrying a smaller gun :dunno: Have there been any studies regarding background checks for plates?

You compared gun control to spoon control - spoon control works, so gun control works?

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(Austria and Germany have a huge difference in suicides and are not exactly polar opposites culturally)

:no: they don't, unless you consider 11.5 vs 9.2 huge... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_suicide_rate

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Replace the word "gun" with "religion" in your post and then tell me if you still think that it's ok to blanket punish many for actions of few.

"Yeah but maybe if nobody had guns religions there would be no need to have guns religions to defend yourself from other people with guns religions. If I lived in place where I felt the need to have a gun religion in order to feel protected, I would question some of the choices I made. Or the society I live in. Guns Religions just cause everything to spiral out of control so much quicker and you can do way more damage with them than with other weapons not sure what to replace here. But maybe this is one aspect I truly don't understand about the US."


Sorry, that approach doesn't make sense.

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What if the attacker is physically more potent than you and you have no escape routes? What if you are defending someone else and need the range to take out the attacker before they get to their victim? It's not a simple one-on-one high noon duel dude.

What if the attacker is a much better shot than you?
What if the attacker needs the range to take out the victim?

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Yep, survival of the fittest is an idea that works very well.... for the fittest

This sounds a lot like survival of the fittest to me:

At least you finally acknowledge cultural differences. For example, in the US we value individual liberties, freedom, and rights. That includes being responsible for your own safety since no one else will do it for you.

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Yeah but what if the attacker also has a gun? Get a bigger gun yourself?

https://youtu.be/wV5AFxEnuBo?t=52
 
Don't worry, I have no "combat" experience whatsoever and I wouldn't be able to defend myself against most people.

Doesn't Switzerland have mandatory military/militia training? I ask simply out of curiosity not because I'm wanting to make a point for or against the subject at hand.
 
Doesn't Switzerland have mandatory military/militia training? I ask simply out of curiosity not because I'm wanting to make a point for or against the subject at hand.

Yes, but you can do civil service instead of military service or buy your way out of both. Applies to Swiss citizens, so probably not to CD82.
 
Yeah but what if the attacker also has a gun? Get a bigger gun yourself?
A gun is often called the great equalizer, meaning that it nullifies differences in size, strength, and physical ability. For example, imagine if my 6'7" 290lbs friend turns into a bad guy and attacks his girlfriend, who is probably 5'3" and 110lbs. If they are both unarmed, he easily prevails. If she has a gun, she has the upper hand. Finally, if they are both armed then they are even and it's more or less a fair fight. Extreme example, I know, but the point is clear, I hope.


The "gun for self defense" scenario only works as long as only "the good guys" get guns.
I disagree. If the bad guys didn't have guns, knives, etc and I knew this with 100% certainty, then I wouldn't carry a gun. However, given that the previous scenario is unrealistic, I choose to carry a firearm so that I may have the option to use that tool as a measure of last resort. Also, keep in mind that no gun will be drawn if the unfolding incident amounts to a simple fist-fight. No gun will be drawn over simple road rage or a drunk's dirty comment. Legally and ethically a gun only enters the situation if there is a threat of serious bodily harm or death - that's it. I think Europeans tend to imagine that the US is still a lot like what was depicted in old Western movies but trust me, we don't go around shooting each other randomly.


Yes there are probably situations where a gun would come in handy, but I can also think of situations where you would be worse off: what if "the attacker", who was previously unarmend, takes away your gun? He or She might be wore willing to use it than you are, and what might have been a simple, if unpleasant, mugging, suddenly turns into something much worse.
I struggle to imagine a situation where my gun would be taken from me by anyone that doesn't already have some fresh orifices that weren't there earlier. The only situation where I'd ever pull out a gun is if, as mentioned earlier, there is a serious and credible threat of serious bodily injury or death to me or to someone I know. That means that if I ever do draw, the situation will be so dire that shots will be fired almost immediately. When it comes to a mugging, I'd gladly hand over my wallet instead of shooting someone... unless they are armed, in which case it would depend on the situation and whether I believe that they will be satisfied with just my wallet.


To me, guns don't save people. Guns only lead to more guns, until both/all sides are armed to the teeth, and the moment something goes wrong, it *really* goes wrong. How many examples are there of "Mass Shooting stopped by random civilian that happened to carry a gun and shoot down the bad guy(s)"?
If a mass shooting is stopped before it becomes a mass shooting, how do you count it? Believe it or not, however, there have been times where potential mass shootings were stopped by an armed civilian. Just a quick Google search gives me examples one, two, and three.

Keep in mind also that the frequency of mass shootings is wildly exaggerated by varying methods of counting (including an Obama directive to lower the threshold) and by our sensationalist mainstream media channels. Whenever you hear the claim that there are hundreds of such events annually in the US, keep in mind that a gang shootout with four injuries and no fatalities is included in that count just as same as the Sandy Hook tragedy; suicides by the shooter also get counted among the victims, as do non-shooting injuries, such as cuts from broken glass or falls. Here's a good article on that subject where the editor of Mother Jones, probably the most anti-gun organization out there, admits that "there have been four ?mass shootings? this year, including the one in San Bernardino, and at least 73 such attacks since 1982." Here's another article on this subject.


Sometimes a few idiots unfortunately spoil something for everybody. Otherwise we could remove any and all security from airports and stop screening all cargo that enters the country, because, man, sometimes "it just happens, and most of the people aren't that bad". But the problem aren't the 99.999999% percent of sane people. The problem are the tiny fraction of nutjobs. And no longer being like "welcome to America, here is your gun" might be a start. But on the other hand, as we are going to see below, it might already be too late to change anything.
I think there are many things we can do to ensure that the violent crime rates continues to drop (which it has been doing for ~25 years, despite a massive spike in gun sales and a drastic relaxation of gun laws nationwide). I've mentioned several social, economic, and cultural fixes in the past so I won't bother repeating myself (unless you missed my previous posts, in which case I'll gladly write it out again or link to the older posts). However, as long as there exist the tiny fractions that may do me harm, I wish to be able to defend myself. I realize that chances are slim that I would ever need to use a gun but I choose to carry for because of the odds but because of the stakes - my life and the lives of my loved ones.


I think we all have to accept the possibility that the laws and guidelines we live by might be outdated and/or based on false premise. Laws are made by people. People can be wrong. Or maybe they were right at the time, but times changed.
Ah, this is a good segue way into a conversation about the original intent of the Second Amendment. The Founders recognized that all throughout human history our selfishness, jealousy, greed, and lust for power have caused rulers to be killed, governments to be toppled, and civilizations crumbled - all of these have left devastating amounts of dead citizenry in their wakes. What the Founding Fathers sought to create was a system that not only recognized that human beings had certain "inalienable" natural rights but, even more importantly, made sure that they would continue to have those rights; that no government, tyrant, ruler, emperor, terrorist, revolutionary, etc would ever be able to take away those rights. Many, if not most, of the violent tyrannies have come directly from government, largely due to its control of the police and the military. Recognizing this, the Founders specifically enumerated the people's right to keep and bear arms because that would be the only way that they would be able to fight off a government gone wild. You say times have changed; I say it's only temporary and that the Second Amendment is what will allow us to preserve our society and safeguard our freedoms.


However, I do see your other points. Collecting "all the guns" would be a colossal undertaking, that would be met with quite some resistance. The problem is also that there are probably just too damn many guns around to collect them all. And you'd probably "disarm" people in the wrong order.

I'm just curious, do you see a problem with 300 million guns distributed across the general population? If so, what's your idea of maybe improving the situation?
I don't. I think that any group that has been historically (including currently) persecuted should be armed: women, homosexuals, blacks, Jews, and so on. Vastly more people have died at the hand of Big Brother than for any other reason - just think of all the genocides that history bears, as well as all the wars, particularly civil wars. Basically what I want is for government bureaucrats to fear their constituents; to know that if they go too far they will pay the ultimate price. Obviously the first three boxes of liberty come first and I'm not advocating that, for example, we take up arms over a state court's negative ruling against gay marriage, but if any government was to go so far as to attempt to round up all homosexuals, I'd be among the first to grab a rifle. Essentially, the cartridge box ensures that the other three remain effective in our democratic society.


Even though I know that I would not last very long in a fist fight (one punch to the face, to be exact) I never felt the need to carry a weapon of any kind. The town I grew up in was totally safe, and there was basically no crime. The next big city had a couple of "bad areas" (parks where junkies go at night to get high), but since everybody knew about them you just avoided them at night. The worst I can think of where drunk people beating the crap out of each other after a party, but that's about it. And the place I live now is like even more safe. Therefore I never felt the need to be able to defend myself against anything or anyone. And again, I'm not physically imposing or anything, I'm not "left alone by default".
I'm sure Ut?ya was very safe for many decades also. Like I said, I carry for the stakes, not for the odds.
 
:no: they don't, unless you consider 11.5 vs 9.2 huge... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_suicide_rate
I expect better sources out of you.

"Yeah but maybe if nobody had guns religions there would be no need to have guns religions to defend yourself from other people with guns religions. If I lived in place where I felt the need to have a gun religion in order to feel protected, I would question some of the choices I made. Or the society I live in. Guns Religions just cause everything to spiral out of control so much quicker and you can do way more damage with them than with other weapons not sure what to replace here. But maybe this is one aspect I truly don't understand about the US."


Sorry, that approach doesn't make sense.
It does when you start talking about gun religion control, when crazy Christian guy killed a bunch of kids you don't say we need to ban Christians, when crazy Muslims blow up buildings and train stations you don't say we need to ban Islam. By the same token when a drunk driver plows into a mall you don't say ban driving and alcohol.* Somehow in those cases we understand that it is an individual's choice that makes the difference not the religion or drug they were taking, you throw guns into the mix and all of a sudden everyone zeros in on the tool.

What if the attacker is a much better shot than you?
What if the attacker needs the range to take out the victim?
Again at no point is a gun (or any other weapon) a guarantee but it is a chance.
 
I expect better sources out of you.

How about this source? http://gamapserver.who.int/gho/interactive_charts/mental_health/suicide_rates/atlas.html

It does when you start talking about gun religion control, when crazy Christian guy killed a bunch of kids you don't say we need to ban Christians, when crazy Muslims blow up buildings and train stations you don't say we need to ban Islam. By the same token when a drunk driver plows into a mall you don't say ban driving and alcohol.* Somehow in those cases we understand that it is an individual's choice that makes the difference not the religion or drug they were taking, you throw guns into the mix and all of a sudden everyone zeros in on the tool.

You cannot shoot someone with a religion, so the comparison is nonsense as I was trying to show with the replacement post.

Again at no point is a gun (or any other weapon) a guarantee but it is a chance.

Yes, flooding the population with guns does increase the chance of the attacker having one. How is that a good thing? :?
 
Much better, also do you think that 14.5/4.1 vs 18.2/5.4 (male/female) is not a big difference?
You cannot shoot someone with a religion, so the comparison is nonsense as I was trying to show with the replacement post.
You can kill someone in the name of a religion, as we are sadly all way too aware of.

Yes, flooding the population with guns does increase the chance of the attacker having one. How is that a good thing? :?
So taking away guns from non-attackers makes sense to you? Since attackers don't really follow laws in general.
 
Much better, also do you think that 14.5/4.1 vs 18.2/5.4 (male/female) is not a big difference?

That's the source used in the wikipedia page I linked to, how is that any better? :blink:
It's a difference, but not a huge difference... both within the general range of variations you see in the figures from Western Europe.

You can kill someone in the name of a religion, as we are sadly all way too aware of.

We'll get back to that once people kill each other with a religion in the name of a gun in the library.

So taking away guns from non-attackers makes sense to you? Since attackers don't really follow laws in general.

If criminals don't follow laws, what's the point of having any at all?
 
That's the source used in the wikipedia page I linked to, how is that any better? :blink:
It's a difference, but not a huge difference... both within the general range of variations you see in the figures from Western Europe.
They are different numbers so how is Wikipedia accurate? But then if the difference of 4 isn't very large the difference of 1 isn't either so again availability of guns is not a factor in suicides.


We'll get back to that once people kill each other with a religion in the name of a gun in the library.
So what you are saying is that, to you, the tool that is being used is more important than the actual underlying reasons for violence.


If criminals don't follow laws, what's the point of having any at all?

Laws are a framework for punishment not prevention. While the possibility of punishment may stop some people it won't stop others.
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Saw this brilliance on Facebook
ImageUploadedByTapatalk1449408602.197062.jpg
 
We'll get back to that once people kill each other with a religion in the name of a gun in the library.
:lol: Religion is the #2 killer in history, with government being #1. An ideology is far more dangerous than a gun.
 
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