heel toe or toe heel?

theblue

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this thread made an interesting read... I have some thoughts to share as somebody with both track and autoX experience:

heel toe is needed at track days because you're threshold braking at the edge of traction as late into the turn as possible - as a result of this you can't afford to take your foot off the brake so you move the heel over to the gas to assist with the blip to down shift. For this reason you would never use the "left half of your foot on the brake" or "use the heel on the brake" because you don't start the heel toe on both -- you start on the brake and then move to the gas (you would never just use the heel on the brake under normal driving).
People often talk about using the heel toe on the street and it's a little different there. You're not truly threshold braking so you have time to heel toe in just about any style you want no matter how wrong it would be at the track. You are only braking as much as needed so you can be more relaxed. I don't really heel toe on the street unless really driving hard but I always rev match every time -- I'll be exiting the highway and I'll brake, then off the brake to rev match down, then back to the brake... heel toe is just not needed when only driving 7/10th.

Left foot braking is something that I do in autoX to hold boost and slow down... you don't left foot brake and clutch -- I only use it to maintain a gear (2nd in autoX) but yet not drop too far out of the car's powerband. You can also get more feel which doesn't hurt. Again, not something for the street really.
 

RPM Photography

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I heel-toe some of the time on the road, mainly to get some practice for the track.

The pedals in my car aren't bad for heel/toe, but they are a tad far apart, I might look at some after market pedals.

It is quite difficult to heel/toe or rev match in my 540i because the flywheel is so damn heavy, you really have to mash the crap out of it for it to rev fast enough.
 

llpc60

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get a 8lb one...like mine :D

edit: i have to learn how to rev match all over again, because they go up soooo damn fast, and drop even faster. 4-5th is super hard to shift without lettin the revs drop too much and not havin to gas a bit b4 engaging the clutch
 

Brother Michael

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This seems like a good thread to put this question in:

Could someone please explain OR post a link to something that would clearly explain all these things in a simple manner (revmatching, heel-toe etc). Left foot breaking is the only one I get. I have no clue how to do it (haven't tried) but I read a long interview with Rauno Aaltonen who is one of the "founders" of left foot braking, so I know what it?s about.

This heel-toe/rev matching thing just confuses me, and it's something I have been trying to learn, but clearly I am doing something wrong, because I don't seem to get it right. Ever ! My downshifts at high speeds are too jerky and edgy. Any pointers on that ?
 

llpc60

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learning to rev match:

say youre going 60mph in 3rd gear. look at the revs youre at in 3rd gear and 60mph. keep it in mind, now shift into 4th and maintain 60mph. to rev match/dowshift, you must clutch in and give enough gas so the revs go back up to whatever it was in 3rd. keep it thre and then just slide in 3rd and the revs will be perfect.

keep practicing and you will do this in every rev/speed/gear just by noise.


learning to double clutch:

do your normal rev matching, but on the way to the lower gear, stop in neutral, clutch out, then clutch in and slide in whatever gear you were going to use.

so its a normal shift apart from using neutral as a gear too (you have to clutch out, like youre in a regular gear)

get it?
 

Brother Michael

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Aahaa ! Thanks a bunch ! That helps a whole lot. What's the point in double clutching btw ? Does it make rev matching easier or something ? Are there any good books/vids out there that I should check out if I want to learn exactly these kind of fundamentals of performance driving.
 

llpc60

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I dont know of any vids, but there are good reads online.

double clutching if done right, makes the downshift smoother, and helps the syncros**, so the wear is less on them. (ever driven a manual car that wouldnt go into 1st unless you slowed down to a crawl? if the owner double clutched, that wouldnt happen since the ssyncros would still be in good shape)

now 99.9% of the people will argue and say a "modern car" has magic syncros and they wont wear out, but they are dummies that fail to realise how many "modern" cars out there with worn out syncros.

AND fail to realise how it DOES make downshifting smoother. if you get the revs perfect right with double clutching, you wont feel anything while going into the lower/higher gear. its as the gearbox broke and there was no resistence at all ( now my miata has a damn good shifter, so its easy to notice this stuff. i dont know how this aplies to cars like 2002ish gtis for example, because you can never feel anythign anyways...double clutching/rev matching or not....there is nothing there)

**syncros are what enables you to shift without revmatching, if you abuse them, they will wear out and shifting will became notchy, and then to maybe to the point of HAVING to double clutch (example: 1st gear, on many many cars)

and the best way to learn, is to go out and practice.

after driving the miata for just a month, I was already double clutching/toe healing/revmatching , and I practiced on the street. now I cant see myself not doing this while driving around, it just feels so wrong

so read a little about it, then go out and practice. in no time youll be doing it by 2nd nature
 

watisdis

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Aahaa ! Thanks a bunch ! That helps a whole lot. What's the point in double clutching btw ? Does it make rev matching easier or something ? Are there any good books/vids out there that I should check out if I want to learn exactly these kind of fundamentals of performance driving.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Double_clutching
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heel-and-Toe
Video of heel-toe braking in conjunction with double-clutch downshifts in a racecar.

Double-clutching is used for Manual boxes without syncros. Double-clutching is unnecessary in boxes that have syncros i.e. 99% of them.
 
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Brother Michael

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My god this thing is hard !! The rev matching thing I'm getting, but double clutching. It's ridiculous I tell ya !! It is sooo difficult to to do. I guess it's just non stop practice every mile I cover...

And the video in the previous post. Yes, I didn't think driving race cars is easy but my god !!! The dude is working full time with the drivetrain. I mean damn.....I respect racing drivers faaaar more from now on.
 

llpc60

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dang im so white, I <3 IL. Im a proud lazy fatty. oh im so fat i cant even use my left leg to properly drive my car. its sooo much work omg...whats pizza huts phone number again? driving over BK and ordering something on the drive through is too much work. i rather not strain my legs doing that. mmmm is that chocolate cake? i could use a few more pounds, I still weight less than a whale. girl the less work we do the better!!!11!1 i love my auto camry!!

jokes/flames aside, like i said..most people will say its useless, and thats because they are dumb and hanvent tried it in a proper gearbox, and/or havent got it right.
 

teletubby-warrior

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dang im so white, I <3 IL. Im a proud lazy fatty. oh im so fat i cant even use my left leg to properly drive my car. its sooo much work omg...whats pizza huts phone number again? driving over BK and ordering something on the drive through is too much work. i rather not strain my legs doing that. mmmm is that chocolate cake? i could use a few more pounds, I still weight less than a whale. girl the less work we do the better!!!11!1 i love my auto camry!!

Let me get this straight... you concluded that I'm white, fat, lazy, and drive an automatic car because I prefer not to bother with unnecessary driving techniques in stop-and-go, Chicago traffic? :confused:
 

Brother Michael

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Let me get this straight... you concluded that I'm white, fat, lazy, and drive an automatic car because I prefer not to bother with unnecessary driving techniques in stop-and-go, Chicago traffic? :confused:

Every action has an opposite and equal reaction. A "funny" post will get a "funny" repost.
 
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