heel-toe

heel-toe

  • Yeah! All the time!

    Votes: 25 24.3%
  • Once in a while.

    Votes: 13 12.6%
  • Only when racing / driving in a spirited manner.

    Votes: 11 10.7%
  • Hardly ever / never although I know how to.

    Votes: 17 16.5%
  • I'm horrible at it so I don't even bother.

    Votes: 10 9.7%
  • I'm learning the craft!

    Votes: 10 9.7%
  • Don't know how to do it.

    Votes: 15 14.6%
  • Heel-toe? Wat dat?

    Votes: 2 1.9%

  • Total voters
    103

_HighVoltage_

Captain Volvo
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That wouldn't work on my car.
3632460018_large.jpg


I can only drop from fourth to third.
 

WDWBen

Subaru Killer
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I heel-toe quite often. However, I don't actually use the heel-and-toe of my foot. I actually keep the left blade of my right foot on the brake, and then rock my foot so the right blade blips the throttle. It works great for me.
 

Labcoatguy

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I've been working on it the past week. Getting it right on a challenging road makes for a joyful sensation.
 

Polygon

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It's easy as hell. Just clutch in and move the gearshift as normal, but before you clutch out, tap the throttle to raise the RPM by 1500-2000 depending on the car's gearing and clutch out. If the car jerks you did it wrong, if you feel nothing you did it right. The RPMs only need to be within about 1000 of the target road speed to make it feel perfectly smooth, and it's better to over-rev than under rev.

Most trouble usually stems from putting the feet in the wrong place and having trouble hitting the gas with the side of the foot.

Well, after watching the video at the top, it seem it's easier said than done. It sounds simple in theory, but looks like it will take a good deal of practice to do it smoothly in the real world. I would love to get to the track to practice this. Too bad the only car I could practice on this year, the 2nd and 3rd gear syncros are on their way out.
 

MadCat360

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Well, after watching the video at the top, it seem it's easier said than done. It sounds simple in theory, but looks like it will take a good deal of practice to do it smoothly in the real world. I would love to get to the track to practice this. Too bad the only car I could practice on this year, the 2nd and 3rd gear syncros are on their way out.

The difference is one extra movement. Trust me, even in a formula car with a sequential gearbox banging down 4 gears in 350 feet, heel-toe is a piece of cake. It looks really fancy, especially from professional drivers who add a lot of flourish to it and do it extremely quickly, but it's really not difficult.
 

GaryC

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'90 Miata, '12 Octavia RS
I've tried it, but on my mx5 I just can't reach the pedals together. I do declutching rev-matching when downshifting, but not heel and toe.

One question: for rev matching, is it better to: "clutch in, bring to neutral, clutch out, blip, clutch in, go into gear, clutch out"
or
"Clutch in, bring to neutral, blip, go into gear, clutch out"?
 

Hatmouse

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^I think the first is better, though I'm not 100% on the technical reasons why. It's what I've heard though.

I upshift normally in my car, but always do a rev matched double clutched downshift. I...find it easier to get it smoother than the normal way to downshift?

Thusly:
1. Clutch in, to neutral, clutch out.
2. Blip, and right as the revs feel like they're at the right place (which takes practice to find the right point)
3. Clutch in, into gear, clutch out.

With the right timing, you don't feel anything. If the timing is off, there's a slight jerk, I'm guessing it's the synchros picking up the slack.
 

GaryC

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Yeah.. I just take the corners in neutral. It's a habit of mine (whether good or bad) that I've developed since the beginning for no reason at all.

Maybe the method is good for the clutch bearing?
 

MadCat360

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*Carless* Waaahhh
^I think the first is better, though I'm not 100% on the technical reasons why. It's what I've heard though.

I upshift normally in my car, but always do a rev matched double clutched downshift. I...find it easier to get it smoother than the normal way to downshift?

Thusly:
1. Clutch in, to neutral, clutch out.
2. Blip, and right as the revs feel like they're at the right place (which takes practice to find the right point)
3. Clutch in, into gear, clutch out.

With the right timing, you don't feel anything. If the timing is off, there's a slight jerk, I'm guessing it's the synchros picking up the slack.

Double-clutch is the most mechanically sympathetic because it takes a little load off the synchros.

The jerk you feel isn't the synchros, you don't feel those, you hear them (or rather, you hear it when they wear out). The jerk is just mismatched engine revs. The synchros just match the input shaft to the lay shaft as the dog rings mesh with the gear.
 

tigger

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I can heel-toe and had a great deal of fun doing it in my Celicas and E30. Though I'll never be as quick and smooth at it as Senna. Well, maybe if I get some of those loafers I will.

I've tried it in my F150, the first time was after a friend (the guy who actually taught me to heel-toe in the first place) wouldn't leave me alone about it. I couldn't do it without over-revving or locking up the brakes. The gas pedal is just too far 'below' the brake.
 
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Hbriz

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I'm going to have to practice where I put my feet when doing this. I just had a go, but had trouble reaching the accelerator unless I was braking fairly firmly, much more so than I normally would in everyday driving. My accelerator is placed quite low compared to the brake pedal, so I couldn't really use the sides of my foot for each. I'd need to turn my foot and actually 'heel-and-toe'. That's going to take some work to get right.
 

Silverstar

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'11 Impreza STI Sedan
I heel-toe (in a way) every time I drive, just comes as second nature now. STI has nice pedal placement for it...and it such a smoother feel to downshifts.

By in a way I more or less just roll my foot (just like in the Senna vid, but less god-like) to achieve the rev on a downshift whilst braking, without change in pressure on the brake pedal
 
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Matt2000

An Unfortunate Discovery
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I don't know how to do it but it might be useful in the Land Rover, the gearing difference between 4th and 3rd means the revs jump quite a bit (I change down at around 30-35mph, which I have to do with drum brakes or I risk not stopping).
 

Lastsoul

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I'm going to have to practice where I put my feet when doing this. I just had a go, but had trouble reaching the accelerator unless I was braking fairly firmly, much more so than I normally would in everyday driving. My accelerator is placed quite low compared to the brake pedal, so I couldn't really use the sides of my foot for each. I'd need to turn my foot and actually 'heel-and-toe'. That's going to take some work to get right.

Yeah, I've the same problem with the 406. In the street driving it's not very easy to do it. Practicing is hard when you're constantly braking harder than you'd like and the gas pedal is still a bit too low. At first I thought I just can't learn it, but then I've noticed it depends quite a lot from the car. The pedals of the MX-5 are actually further away from each other than in the Pug, but they're quite even, and brake pedal requires stronger force so you don't accidentally brake too hard , so it feels pretty natural to heel'n toe with it.
 

public

Captain Slow Charging
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I rev-match with the Mazda all the time, feels pointless in the Sapporo (like there's any point in rev-matching in either :p). I don't heel-toe, just rev-match.
 

frankiess

Wankel Wanker
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Yeah.. I just take the corners in neutral. It's a habit of mine (whether good or bad) that I've developed since the beginning for no reason at all.

wat
 

Hbriz

Ballroom Blitz
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Around here there are a lot of great driving roads that have sharp uphill corners and hairpins. If you're in neutral going around them, you'd stop and roll back down. Not to mention that in any corner you lose speed going round, and accelerating out of the other end after that drop would be far more inefficient than maintaining speed around the corner.

Driving, you're doing it wrong. :p
 
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