Helicopter Crash in Phoenix... WTF?

nomix

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His actions lead to the disaster. I'm not saying he intended for it to happen, or that other mistakes weren't made, but most accidents rarely happen that way. The man ran from the police, hitting parked cars, loosing control. Ditched his car, car jacked someone else, and fled to a friend of his son's house, where he broke in and barricaded himself. Luckily no one was home, so he had no hostages. If you want me to feel pity for the man, you're badly deluded.
Liken it to two people running out to see someone being arrested, hitting each other in the hallway, and falling down the stairs, thereby dying. It would in fact be the same, but for the love of god, you couldn't blame it on anyone else than those dead, if any.

Sadly.

The US legal system is screwed up. Criminals have gotten hurt while doing a home invasion and sued the home owners and won. Great, a legal precedent to reward criminals for their crimes. I think that is a slightly more dangerous legal precedent then the possibility of being held accountable for deaths caused as a result of your willful actions.
Two very stupid actions doesn't make one smart one.

That's really the end of it.
 

TC

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What if 2 police cruisers in a high speed pursuit clipped eachother and crashed, killing both officers. Would that be blamed on the officers?

I hear a lot of people bitch about the American media system, but they're obligated to follow these stories. That's their job.
 

zenkidori

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What if 2 police cruisers in a high speed pursuit clipped eachother and crashed, killing both officers. Would that be blamed on the officers?
actually, yes, that's usually how it works. The police have training in how to follow someone in relative safety, and an officer in pursuit is VERY MUCH responsible for his own actions. If a cop clips a pedestrian while chasing a bank robber, legally he is very much responsible. But what do I know, with family in law enforcement and everything? Officers are responsible for everything they do, from shooting a gun to driving their cruiser.

I hear a lot of people bitch about the American media system, but they're obligated to follow these stories. That's their job.
actually, they aren't. they aren't obligated to do anything, they do what they do out of sheer competition for "the scoop" or "the shot" or whatever else will sell more ads.

these pilots had training that teaches them NOT to get into these types of situations, and it's their responsibility not to crash or get too close to another aviator, it's all on them.

there was a rescue chopper crash here in CO where a pilot hit a power line and crashed, killing everyone. Are you going to hold the person needing rescue responsible for that? of course not.
 

TC

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actually, yes, that's usually how it works. The police have training in how to follow someone in relative safety, and an officer in pursuit is VERY MUCH responsible for his own actions. If a cop clips a pedestrian while chasing a bank robber, legally he is very much responsible. But what do I know, with family in law enforcement and everything? Officers are responsible for everything they do, from shooting a gun to driving their cruiser.
But still, you can't just ignore the fact that someone breaking the law created the situation that lead to the deaths. Again, I'm not saying the criminal should "get the chair" or anything like that. But just like the cops, the criminal is responsible for everything they do as well, and imo, that includes the situation. If a criminal was doing a 120mph through a residential zone and slammed into a minivan pulling out of their driveway, killing everyone, I seriously doubt the driver of the minivan should receive full blame for not yielding the right of way.

these pilots had training that teaches them NOT to get into these types of situations, and it's their responsibility not to crash or get too close to another aviator, it's all on them.
We still don't know what caused the crash. Early reports said one of the choppers my have experienced a failure. We just don't know. And helicopter dynamics aren't simple. In fact, if it wasn't for their ability to hover, I doubt they'd be legally allowed to fly. Getting caught in a city environment with unpredictable wind and updrafts, not mention the possibility of creating a vacuum and getting sucked into the ground, flying a helicopter isn't as simple as Grand Theft Auto.
 

Donington

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The guy didn't cause the crash? Yes, he stole a truck, and they followed, but it wasn't like he was shooting at the helicopters?
 

jetsetter

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Has the guy even been charged with the crash? If not I say we need to slow down a bit. We don't have the complete story but some of you are already drawing conclusions. But even if he has been charged it does mean that charge will stick.
 

nomix

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What if 2 police cruisers in a high speed pursuit clipped eachother and crashed, killing both officers. Would that be blamed on the officers?
Well, technically, it would. They weren't paying enough attention. But there would be reason to put a part of the blame on the person who caused the chase, and by that was the underlying cause of what happened.

But that is not the same. These guys went into the situation without any care for their own safety, without due care for the situation, and ignoring whatever laws of physics they probably know about. They were to blame, not the damned guy who drove the car.

I hear a lot of people bitch about the American media system, but they're obligated to follow these stories. That's their job.
They're obligated to cover news, not single stories about stupids sods trying to outrun the Sherrrrriff. But people watch it, so it's MADE news. That is not real news, it's just tabloid bullshit.

Spear me. Obligated to cover chases? If anything, they're starting more chases. They have the right to do so. Sure. Is it proper news? No. It's just wishwash.
 

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Don't think this has been posted yet. :cry:

Phoenix_midair_crash.JPG
 

zenkidori

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But still, you can't just ignore the fact that someone breaking the law created the situation that lead to the deaths. Again, I'm not saying the criminal should "get the chair" or anything like that. But just like the cops, the criminal is responsible for everything they do as well, and imo, that includes the situation. If a criminal was doing a 120mph through a residential zone and slammed into a minivan pulling out of their driveway, killing everyone, I seriously doubt the driver of the minivan should receive full blame for not yielding the right of way.
that's a VASTLY different situation. a closer analogy would be if a driver pulled out into traffic and got creamed because he was busy watching some girl take her top off, you gonna shoulder the responsibility on the girl?


We still don't know what caused the crash. Early reports said one of the choppers my have experienced a failure. We just don't know. And helicopter dynamics aren't simple. In fact, if it wasn't for their ability to hover, I doubt they'd be legally allowed to fly. Getting caught in a city environment with unpredictable wind and updrafts, not mention the possibility of creating a vacuum and getting sucked into the ground, flying a helicopter isn't as simple as Grand Theft Auto.
Where did I say that flying a helicopter was simple? Seeing as I'm trying to get a degree in aviation and eventually fly aircraft for the military, I think I know how complicated flying is, especially rotor craft. None of what you've posted would put any of the responsibility of the aircraft on ANYONE on the ground. if it was a mechanical failure, it would be that poor maintenance is to blame. if it's a design flaw, then the manufacturer is to blame. short of that, the pilot and ONLY the pilot are responsible for their aircraft. if the guy shot at the aircraft and they collided trying to evade his fire, then he would be responsible, but other than that, the suspect has NO involvement in the crash whatsoever, it's all on the pilots.
 

TC

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Say what you will, but it's not up to us. If he gets a harsher sentence because of it, I wouldn't be surprised.
 

nomix

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I have to say it wouldn't suprise med neither. But it would still be really, really stupid. Not to say wrong.
 

Hatmouse

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If you want me to feel pity for the man, you're badly deluded.

I never asked you to. I certainly don't feel pity towards him. He should be charged with what he has done wrong...and again, only for what he has done wrong.

This doesn't include the chopper accident though.
 

TC

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I never asked you to. I certainly don't feel pity towards him. He should be charged with what he has done wrong...and again, only for what he has done wrong.

This doesn't include the chopper accident though.

Again, in your opinion. It's up to a judge.
 

un-dee

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From my rough knowledge about law systems this might actually work in the US.

The law system here states that you can only be held responsible for stuff that happens if you are the one to blame, meaning that you either did it it intentional or you were negligent. Example: you place an object on the sidewalk, somebody has to walk around it, walks into a rake and breaks his nose. (I know, its a stupid example)
You can't be blamed for his broken nose, even if your actions were the cause for it to happen.
Now again, I think its different in the US because their understanding of law follows the law of cause and effect. This is what leads to from our point of view sometimes ridiculous lawsuits and all the warning labels on everything.
 

sonza68

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It falls under felony murder. If you are commiting a felony and someone dies during the event, you can be charged for the deaths. Had he not been running from the police, the news choppers would have had no reason to follow him and they wouldn't have crashed.
 

KaJuN

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^ I'm hardly a law expert, but here's my understanding of it. If a criminal is holding someone hostage and that person suffers an asthma attack and dies, then yes they can be charged with murder. They died from the direct actions of the criminal even though the death was unintended. The people in the helicopters didn't die because the guy was running from the police. They died because two helicopters crashed into each other.

This case could be the start of a slippery slope. If he's charged with the deaths of those in the helicopters, what's to stop other people from being charged with crimes that aren't results of their direct actions? Our courts are backed up enough already with the stupid lawsuits people file. We don't need to start nitpicking about how a criminal's action led to something that in turn contributed to something else. It's just silly.

There's another thing about this discussion that's bothering me. The news crews didn't have to be there. They took the job knowing the risks. If the pilots felt it was too dangerous to fly with all those aircraft in such a small area then they have the final say (but would probably lose their jobs if they didn't go. :rolleyes: )
 

nomix

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KaJuN, you have a valid point there. Those responsible, if any, is the employers. If they have failed to make sure the pilots act in a safe manner, and if they in their working environment are led to the feeling they NEED to take needless risks, I think the employers are the ones to blame. Had they not pushed on to get the story, to GET CLOSE, the accident would not have happened.
 

TC

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This case could be the start of a slippery slope. If he's charged with the deaths of those in the helicopters, what's to stop other people from being charged with crimes that aren't results of their direct actions? Our courts are backed up enough already with the stupid lawsuits people file.

I think 2 aircraft crashing and 4 deaths is hardly considered a "stupid silly lawsuit".
 

jetsetter

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They can charge him with whatever they want, it just depends if it holds up in court.
 
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