Helicopter Crash in Phoenix... WTF?

thedguy

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Ok, hypothetical situation here. Lets say you're driving on the freeway and come up on 2 cars that have just been in an accident, and because you were to busy staring at the accident you neglected that turn in the road ahead and wreck your car. Does that make your wreck their fault? After all they were drawing your attention away. As I said before, if these charges (assuming they have actually tried to) stick, then such a precident would exist and you'd be able to (in the example above) sue them for damages.

Just because it's the "media's job to cover this" doesn't mean they aren't obsolved of any responsibility themselves.
 

skr

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May be they should start concentrating on real news like politics and foreign affairs and accidents like that won't happen anymore.
Chasing a car chase is just voyeuristic for quick and cheap ratings, and that is all that counts these days.
 

thedguy

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May be they should start concentrating on real news like politics and foreign affairs and accidents like that won't happen anymore.
Chasing a car chase is just voyeuristic for quick and cheap ratings, and that is all that counts these days.

This is why many states have laws against high speed chases. Last I heard California was thinking of putting in these laws. There wasn't a week that didn't go by when I was a kid that a car chase wasn't on tv.
 

zenkidori

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It falls under felony murder. If you are commiting a felony and someone dies during the event, you can be charged for the deaths. Had he not been running from the police, the news choppers would have had no reason to follow him and they wouldn't have crashed.
actually that's beyond the scope. that only applies if the criminal had direct contact or by direct action involved the persons in question. they joined for their own motives of their own accord. they could have remained outside the situation.
 

TC

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Ok, hypothetical situation here. Lets say you're driving on the freeway and come up on 2 cars that have just been in an accident, and because you were to busy staring at the accident you neglected that turn in the road ahead and wreck your car. Does that make your wreck their fault? After all they were drawing your attention away. As I said before, if these charges (assuming they have actually tried to) stick, then such a precident would exist and you'd be able to (in the example above) sue them for damages.

Just because it's the "media's job to cover this" doesn't mean they aren't obsolved of any responsibility themselves.
I don't know what I think about it. If the guy gets a harder sentence, I won't care.

To me, it's almost like walking into a crowded theater and yelling "Fire!". In the USA, that's against the law. If you do it, you'll be arrested. Why? Because it can, and has, created a panic and people have been trampled to death in the process. If you yell "Fire" in a theater and someone gets trampled to death, your ass is going to prison for a long long LONG time.

But wait, you didn't force people to panic! They overreacted and panicked on their own! You didn't trample anyone! Why would you get blamed for the death(s) when you weren't "directly" involved? Why? Because it's common sense. People will panic if you do something like that and people could get seriously hurt or even killed. 1st Amendment be damned. Getting into a high speed pursuit in the fifth largest city in the United States of America is going to cause a big scene. We have a ton of "World's Wildest Police Chases" programs on TV. You should know better. It's common sense.

The guy didn't directly cause the helicopter accident or force them into each other. But at the same time, I don't think negligence is a sufficient excuse to dodge responsibility.
 
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thedguy

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The guy didn't directly cause the helicopter accident or force them into each other. But at the same time, I don't think negligence is a sufficient excuse to dodge responsibility.

The part you seem to be ignoring or glossing over is the fact that the helicopters, in the end, are supposed to be paying attention to their surroundings.

Regardless of the legality of ones actions, you should not have to consider that some idiot will come out of no where, fuck himself up and than you get the blame because they were stupid.

Yelling "Fire" in a crowded building is a bad example, as that person had to find the crowded building, go in, and yell "Fire." This helicopter situation came to him, he never had any direct influence on what happened to them, unless he knew they were there, and he decided to drive in a manner to which would have caused the situation. In that case, good luck proving it.
 

TC

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The part you seem to be ignoring or glossing over is the fact that the helicopters, in the end, are supposed to be paying attention to their surroundings.

Regardless of the legality of ones actions, you should not have to consider that some idiot will come out of no where, fuck himself up and than you get the blame because they were stupid.

Yelling "Fire" in a crowded building is a bad example, as that person had to find the crowded building, go in, and yell "Fire." This helicopter situation came to him, he never had any direct influence on what happened to them, unless he knew they were there, and he decided to drive in a manner to which would have caused the situation. In that case, good luck proving it.
We still don't know what cause the accident. There were early reports of one chopper radioing in some sort of problem. The FAA is investigating. I'm not going to speculate on that.

You can't just write off someone's death as being their own fault for whatever reason. That's why business owners are legally required to maintain their properties, because if someone trips over an uneven floor change, or something equally dumb, the store owner is liable. You can't run from the police and then be shocked that the police chased you. Or that a news chopper is filming the mayhem you're creating in the middle of a massive city. You can't set traps, then deny responsibility when someone falls in it. Or claim ignorance.

It would be different if it was just an innocent accident. Like your rubber necker example. It would be horrible, but it was just an accident, no one did anything wrong, per say. But a felon running from the police isn't the same thing, imo.
 

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TomCat, we KNOW that the helicopters wasn't shot down by gunfire or surface to air missiles from the guy in the car, neither did his car take off and ram them out of the air, or in fact, anything like that.

It's not his fault. Period.
 

TC

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Those two statements contradict themselves. It's like my Theater example. Or conning someone out of money, rather then pick-pocketing someone.

Look, I don't want the guy to be tried for murder. I don't even "want" him to receive a harsher sentence. It's not up to me. But if the courts decide that he is at least partially responsible for the deaths of those 4 people, I'll understand why. And if the courts decide that the accident was no fault of his own, I'll understand that as well, and I'll respect it.
 

nomix

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What you're really saying is that you couldn't care less, and you've still debated on for a couple of pages? :p

The problem is, the fault is not his. The helicopters didn't need to be there, they were there of own free will (or because they were ordered too), they made a mistake and they crashed. If one could put blame on anyone, it would be those who didn't make sure the pilots knew that safety was more important than getting the absolute best views of the situation.

This sounds more like a work related accident made possible because of the employer failing to ensure the safety of his/hers workers, than anything else.
 

TC

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What you're really saying is that you couldn't care less, and you've still debated on for a couple of pages? :p

The problem is, the fault is not his. The helicopters didn't need to be there, they were there of own free will (or because they were ordered too), they made a mistake and they crashed. If one could put blame on anyone, it would be those who didn't make sure the pilots knew that safety was more important than getting the absolute best views of the situation.

This sounds more like a work related accident made possible because of the employer failing to ensure the safety of his/hers workers, than anything else.

I like playing devil's advocate. What can I say?

And I live and work in the Phoenix area, where this happened. In fact, if you watch the police chase, as the criminal is trying to drive the truck after the tires were all blown out by spike-strips, he barrels through an intersection almost out of control and in the other lane driving the opposite direction you'll see my sister's car, with her and her husband driving to work. This situation kinda hits close to home. I know you don't care.
 

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I like playing devil's advocate. What can I say?

And I live and work in the Phoenix area, where this happened. In fact, if you watch the police chase, as the criminal is trying to drive the truck after the tires were all blown out by spike-strips, he barrels through an intersection almost out of control and in the other lane driving the opposite direction you'll see my sister's car, with her and her husband driving to work. This situation kinda hits close to home. I know you don't care.
That's both cool and scary at the same time. Glad they're ok (in case the guy went out of control and hit them or something).
 

TC

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That's both cool and scary at the same time. Glad they're ok (in case the guy went out of control and hit them or something).

Yeah, they didn't even know what was going on, because they had a CD on. They were only a couple blocks from the where the choppers crashed as well.

There has been a lot of talk about this accident over the past week. Emotions are high. Later that same night, a police officer was shot and killed when he tried to report on a robbery or something. It was a very bad Friday for Arizona. But there is some good coming from it. The radio station I listen to, 97.9 KUPD, posted links to the email addresses of all the General Mangers for the television news stations here in Arizona, so people can email them all and demand/plead that they no longer try and report on idiotic police chases. It seems to be working too, they're getting flooded. There was already an official statement from another news station in California that swore off reporting on police chases.
 

nomix

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I like playing devil's advocate. What can I say?

And I live and work in the Phoenix area, where this happened. In fact, if you watch the police chase, as the criminal is trying to drive the truck after the tires were all blown out by spike-strips, he barrels through an intersection almost out of control and in the other lane driving the opposite direction you'll see my sister's car, with her and her husband driving to work. This situation kinda hits close to home. I know you don't care.
I do care.

I know how it is to be afraid, and feel a scare, I do know it. And I do care when others experience it.

And if you drive like that, he should be convicted for very dangerous driving.

But hasn't the number of high speed chases increased in the time since choppers started to cover them?
 

TC

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I do care.

I know how it is to be afraid, and feel a scare, I do know it. And I do care when others experience it.
I didn't even know my sister saw the pursuit until 2 days ago. It wasn't much of a scare, not even to them.

And if you drive like that, he should be convicted for very dangerous driving.
LOL If you think he's going to walk with a simple moving violation, you're even more deluded then I thought. He's facing multiple felony charges and won't see the light of day for a long long time. Not a suspended license and a court date next year. Jeez.

But hasn't the number of high speed chases increased in the time since choppers started to cover them?
Probably not. There are just more choppers, so you see more of them.
 
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nomix

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I do think I've seen a statistic on that, but I might be wrong.

And please, I don't believe in harsh punishment for all crime, but I have no fancy ideas that he'll get off easily. ;) Neither do I believe he should get off easily.
 

zenkidori

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But wait, you didn't force people to panic! They overreacted and panicked on their own! You didn't trample anyone! Why would you get blamed for the death(s) when you weren't "directly" involved? Why? Because it's common sense. People will panic if you do something like that and people could get seriously hurt or even killed. 1st Amendment be damned. Getting into a high speed pursuit in the fifth largest city in the United States of America is going to cause a big scene. We have a ton of "World's Wildest Police Chases" programs on TV. You should know better. It's common sense.
do you seriously NOT get how that's a completely different situation? These pilots didn't fly off in pursuit for fear of their lives, they did it so they could put something juicy on TV, and it's their own responsibility to ensure safe procedures are followed and the station's responsibility to ensure the choppers are properly taken care of.
We still don't know what cause the accident. There were early reports of one chopper radioing in some sort of problem. The FAA is investigating. I'm not going to speculate on that.
and yet while the actual cause is unknown you still seek to blame the suspect? do you just have a hard on for criminals or what?
It would be different if it was just an innocent accident. Like your rubber necker example. It would be horrible, but it was just an accident, no one did anything wrong, per say. But a felon running from the police isn't the same thing, imo.
lol, it seems you do. You actually remind me of an episode of King of the Hill where Bill is talking about serving on a jury and says, "we did our job and convicted him every time".:rolleyes:
And I live and work in the Phoenix area, where this happened. In fact, if you watch the police chase, as the criminal is trying to drive the truck after the tires were all blown out by spike-strips, he barrels through an intersection almost out of control and in the other lane driving the opposite direction you'll see my sister's car, with her and her husband driving to work. This situation kinda hits close to home. I know you don't care.
and so because this happened close to you and your sister was somewhat nearby when it happend this guy needs to answer for more than what he did? riiiiiiiiiiiiight, that's justice. wait, no it's not.
The radio station I listen to, 97.9 KUPD, posted links to the email addresses of all the General Mangers for the television news stations here in Arizona, so people can email them all and demand/plead that they no longer try and report on idiotic police chases. It seems to be working too, they're getting flooded. There was already an official statement from another news station in California that swore off reporting on police chases.
this sounds a LOT more intelligent and just than just charging this guy for something extra.
 

TC

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do you seriously NOT get how that's a completely different situation? These pilots didn't fly off in pursuit for fear of their lives, they did it so they could put something juicy on TV, and it's their own responsibility to ensure safe procedures are followed and the station's responsibility to ensure the choppers are properly taken care of.
I'm not trying to put full blame on the criminal. I'm just saying, he created the situation that resulted in the deaths of 4 people. I never said other mistakes weren't made, but again, we still don't know what cause the accident, so I'm not going to speculate on that. I'm only arguing about this because the opening post of this thread stated it was "stupid" for the criminal to possibly face charges for the deaths. Let the courts handle that before passing judgment.

and yet while the actual cause is unknown you still seek to blame the suspect? do you just have a hard on for criminals or what?
I already said that I don't want to blame the criminal. It's not up to me. But if he does get convicted by the courts, I'll understand why, and be repeating these same arguments when that time comes. If the courts find that he is not responsible, then I'll be fine with that too. I don't believe this guy ever wanted to kill anyone. But that doesn't excuse the fact that people did in fact die.

lol, it seems you do. You actually remind me of an episode of King of the Hill where Bill is talking about serving on a jury and says, "we did our job and convicted him every time".:rolleyes:
You see it, when you believe it.

All I'm saying is that accidents happen, but when you're doing something illegal at the time, your ass is grass. If you got in a car accident and the other driver died, you better hope you weren't breaking any laws at the time of the accident.

and so because this happened close to you and your sister was somewhat nearby when it happend this guy needs to answer for more than what he did? riiiiiiiiiiiiight, that's justice. wait, no it's not.
Wow. I've never seen someone pull something that big out of their own ass. You got talent.

Like I said, I didn't even know my sister saw the chase until a couple days ago. This discussion has been going on for quite a bit longer then that, and my position hasn't changed.

this sounds a LOT more intelligent and just than just charging this guy for something extra.
I agree. But that doesn't mean this guy is off the hook... yet.
 

nomix

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I'm not trying to put full blame on the criminal. I'm just saying, he created the situation that resulted in the deaths of 4 people. I never said other mistakes weren't made, but again, we still don't know what cause the accident, so I'm not going to speculate on that. I'm only arguing about this because the opening post of this thread stated it was "stupid" for the criminal to possibly face charges for the deaths. Let the courts handle that before passing judgment.
I'm a freelance journalist. If I tried to cover an arrest of a suspect resisting arrest on a motorway, and I took my SLR camera up to a bridge overseeing it, and then fell down from the bridge as I tried to get the best possible shot, how in hell could one even remotely blame that on the guy being arrested?

One could say that if he didn't commit the crime that led to his arrest, I wouldn't have fallen.

But then again, if I just cared a little bit more about my safety, I wouldn't cover the situation as I did. And perhaps just as important, my editor would never ask me to take such a risk, he would actually advice strongly against it. I would like to know if there was any policy present in the television networks, which said that safety should come first?

If there's no such focus on safety, I might say, that what just happened was something waiting to happen..
 

TC

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Once again, we don't know what caused the helicopters to crash, so I can't say.

It's up to the courts to decide if this man's actions lead to the situation that resulted in the deaths.
 
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