Here we go again: HR45 "The Firearm Licensing Act of 2009"

alihaig

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It wouldn't be double punishment if you knew when you did the crime/got sentenced that you would lose the vote.

Everything needs to be in proportion, sure if you are only locked up for a short period, for a relatively minor offence then you should be allowed to vote in future, but murders/rapists coming out of long sentences... then I'm not so sure. In the case of your 19 year old in a drunken fight, I would question first whether a 12 month prison sentence is really the most appropriate punishment. For every teenage prisoner who comes out a reformed man there are probably 10 who simply either give up or for whatever reason are just pushed further into the cycle of criminality. Right now I can't think of an alternative off the top of my head, but there must be one.

I apologise if my language comes across as reactionary as you suggest, I am simply speaking my mind and it is not always possible to get across exactly my meaning/thoughts/subtlety whatever in text on an internet forum.
 

wooflepoof

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It wouldn't be double punishment if you knew when you did the crime/got sentenced that you would lose the vote.

Everything needs to be in proportion, sure if you are only locked up for a short period, for a relatively minor offence then you should be allowed to vote in future, but murders/rapists coming out of long sentences... then I'm not so sure. In the case of your 19 year old in a drunken fight, I would question first whether a 12 month prison sentence is really the most appropriate punishment. For every teenage prisoner who comes out a reformed man there are probably 10 who simply either give up or for whatever reason are just pushed further into the cycle of criminality. Right now I can't think of an alternative off the top of my head, but there must be one.

I apologise if my language comes across as reactionary as you suggest, I am simply speaking my mind and it is not always possible to get across exactly my meaning/thoughts/subtlety whatever in text on an internet forum.
You lose a right to vote in all but 2 states upon conviction of a felon and only in a few if you commit a misdemeanor like our 19 year old drunken friend. Its a lengthy process to get your voting rights back and sometimes prohibitively costly and complex, but I'd imagine for a simple misdemeanor some states would be lighter on the whole re-registering the vote than if you say, raped or murdered somebody
 

Plissken

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12 months is a sentence handed down for Grievous (or Actual) Bodily Harm. I know from experience that it has been handed to people who have no previous criminal record, but got into a drunken fight and, well, completely lost control. In US terms it is a felony.

If in the hypothetical case I quoted, there is a genuine good reason to show that the felon has become a valued member of society and ought to be able to vote, then the idea of taking voting rights away for life is disproved.

Plus, haven't some states got people banged up for a long time for simply possessing cannabis? (Three strike rule, no?)
 

wooflepoof

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12 months is a sentence handed down for Grievous (or Actual) Bodily Harm. I know from experience that it has been handed to people who have no previous criminal record, but got into a drunken fight and, well, completely lost control. In US terms it is a felony.

Battery requires (1) a volitional act (2) that results in a harmful or offensive contact with another person (3) committed with the intent to cause a harmful or offensive contact or with a reckless disregard as to whether such contact will result.

If in the hypothetical case I quoted, there is a genuine good reason to show that the felon has become a valued member of society and ought to be able to vote, then the idea of taking voting rights away for life is disproved.

Plus, haven't some states got people banged up for a long time for simply possessing cannabis? (Three strike rule, no?)

Simple battery, which is what you described, is a misdemeanor, 12 months or less is the sentence for a misdemeanor crime, or fines or probation. so 12 months is a long time yes, but its still a misdemeanor and i think most states allow them the right to vote once their term is up. Aggravated battery, which is the felony charge, involves inflicting permanent disfigurement such as paralysis, disfigurement, or dismemberment. This can't ever really be truly paid back since the victim will never be able to regain what was lost, an arm, his sight, the ability to walk etc. All the upstanding valued society bullshit anything wont make a difference to the man who is in a wheelchair unable to work because of him. (ooh, permanent denial of human right to work there, how bout that:))

The three strike rule is verrry generous. No matter what your personal stance/feelings/ideas are or how ridiculous you think the law is, YOU SHOULD NOT BE DOING IT, ITS AGAINST THE LAW. Its not exactly an unjust law[regarding MaryJ] its just one that many feel is unnecessary and silly considering some of the things they do allow;usually backed up with statistics and what not showing how much better we'd be with it legalized. Many good arguments, but nowhere near good enough to "fight the man" and just do it because the law is unjust, unconstitutional, or a massive violation of human rights which would justify a revolt, mass protests and huge changes in policy and government. All that crap is allowed under the constitution if its a big issue like civil rights or slavery or a completely unanimous outrage like prohibition, but it doesn't really apply to fucking smoking weed. Work hard and move to Amsterdam if you absolutely can't live without your fix, or work hard and become a politician so you can push to change the law, or at the very least learn your lesson the first two times dumbass(not you plissken), and don't get caught! If your not only dumb enough to keep doing it, but to also dumb enough to get caught doing it THREE FUCKING TIMES, then no, no you shouldn't be able to vote based on sheer stupidity alone. There are enough ignorant and/or uniformed people voting because they like the color of the candidate's tie or his jawline, we don't an idiotic druggie criminal who clearly hasn't learned his lesson after two times over voting as well.

EDIT: Just for the record I'm speaking of marijuana which isn't physically or deeply psychologically addictive. There are many people with actual problems with drugs that have or perhaps haven't recognized their mistakes and need help. Its often a shame when some of them don't for whatever reason and are victims of the system based on their addiction. But there's no excuse for damn weed smokers and no, I'm not against it mostly I just lose all respect for those who abuse it to the point where it ruins their mind and those idiots who manage to still get caught after 2 frakin chances.
 
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tigger

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It wouldn't be double punishment if you knew when you did the crime/got sentenced that you would lose the vote.
At least in the US, rulings have upheld time and again that ignorance of the law (and the consequences of its violation) is not an excuse for violating it. You can't really argue the sentence, unless it's excessive or cruel/inhumane. Basically, you break the law and get caught, you deal with the consequences, that's it.

It's funny. I feel that both 1)The US prison system is too (in a word) "cushy" and 2)We should decriminalize some drug offenses. That would be an immense relief on our police, court and prison systems, giving them the opportunity to pursue real criminals. Really, all the war on drugs is, is the Prohibition revisited. But I digress.

OT, but your grampa sounds AWESOME, and I want to hear more about his action-movie life. :clap:
Even more OT. For starters, most of what I know about him is from arrests/tickets and (multiple) marriage licenses, dating all the way back to the mid 1920s. I did a short (5-6 pages) bibliography on him a while back. Unfortunately he died 10-11 years ago, so I can't talk to him myself. Maybe I'll post it in OT if I can find it. His life was fucking nuts.
 
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wooflepoof

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At least in the US, rulings have upheld time and again that ignorance of the law (and the consequences of its violation) is not an excuse for violating it. You can't really argue the sentence, unless it's excessive or cruel/inhumane. Basically, you break the law and get caught, you deal with the consequences, that's it.

It's funny. I feel that both 1)The US prison system is too (in a word) "cushy" and 2)We should decriminalize some drug offenses. That would be an immense relief on our police, court and prison systems, giving them the opportunity to pursue real criminals. Really, all the war on drugs is, is the Prohibition revisited. But I digress.
.

First paragraph: yes.

Second: I wouldn't equate non-alcoholic drug prohibition with the alcohol prohibition of the 20s. That prohibition led to a massive public outrage and even honest police, mayors, councilmen, etc were having a drink in the speakeasies. People don't want to have people using drugs besides like, alcohol and caffeine. Also alcohol production, breweries and such created many more job than drug production would. And I guarantee if they were to legalize cannabis more companies would pay to have potential employees tested and then refuse/fire them based on whether or not they smoke. nobody wants an employee who goes to work high even if one only kept it at home or with friends its still a risk plenty businesses wouldn't want to take. There might be a case for decriminalizing marijuana with the exception of intent to sell, but after that just about every other illegal drug out there should be kept the way they are.
 
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tigger

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First paragraph: yes.

Second: I wouldn't equate non-alcoholic drug prohibition with the alcohol prohibition of the 20s. That prohibition led to a massive public outrage and even honest police, mayors, councilmen, etc were having a drink in the speakeasies. People don't want to have people using drugs besides like, alcohol and caffeine. Also alcohol production, breweries and such created many more job than drug production would. And I guarantee if they were to legalize cannabis more companies would pay to have potential employees tested and then refuse/fire them based on whether or not they smoke. nobody wants an employee who goes to work high even if one only kept it at home or with friends its still a risk plenty businesses wouldn't want to take. There might be a case for decriminalizing marijuana with the exception of intent to sell, but after that just about every other illegal drug out there should be kept the way they are.
I agree with you for the most part. Any kind of decriminalization of drugs shouldn't just be enacted overnight. It would be something to explore over time. And I only really support the legalization of marijuana. Drugs like crack and meth should never be legal. Not that any productive discussion about this really matters, Congress will never give up it's war on drugs.

I should have been more specific with the Prohibition reference. Drugs fund illicit activity, murder, terrorism, etc etc; just like alcohol did under Prohibition. Prohibition, in time, did lead to public outcry. But the whole reason it happened in the first place was that enough people thought it was a good idea. Even at the end of it, there were many who still vehemently supported it, despite the costs. There are parallels to be drawn between Prohibition and the war on drugs, both in public opinion and in drug-related violence.
 
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Plissken

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