Homeowner Munir Hussain jailed for attacking burglars who tied up family

wooflepoof

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Which would make sense except for one thing - it was the French who were mostly Catholics. The Germans were (IIRC) mostly Lutherans and other Protestants who didn't pay much attention to the Catholic Church. Besides which, half the politicians in Europe from the Renaissance forward had claimed the same thing and had Church support to greater or lesser degrees.

But they were still basically Christian so the blame the Jews for killing Jesus thing still stood. Racism was rampant and quite normal for this era so it wouldn't have been a hard sell. Even Ghandi had a profound and open distaste for black people. And again, national pride very much played a part, remember how hard Hitler pushed Germany in sports such as racing, he was setting the tone, classic salesmanship
 
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Spectre

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You countered nothing: you're saying they had clear warning that Hitler was a madman, they did. Yet you don't realise how much contempt was held by the German people for their Government. The majority of people viewed their government as backstabbers and perputrated the awful treaty on them, then their was the two massive economic downturns, a french invasion even. Hitler appealled to the German people because he offered a way out of the mess and he capitlised on the antisemitism in Germany to come to power.

So, you're saying that they knew Hitler was totally insane (in the clinical sense, not the political sense), yet they voted for him because they hated their government?

If so, that comes right back to my point - only the stupid or the genetically defective would do something like that. There were, I should remind you, other parties in Germany at the time that were run along similar lines that weren't headed by madmen; the Germans could have chosen one of them. They chose the insane one who came with a "do not elect" warning instead.
 

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So, you're saying that they knew Hitler was totally insane (in the clinical sense, not the political sense), yet they voted for him because they hated their government?

From memory Mein Kampf was a poor seller before Hitler came to power so that is a mute point. Only 33% of the voters voted for Hitler, which is not enough for majority in the Reichstag.
 
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wooflepoof

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So, you're saying that they knew Hitler was totally insane (in the clinical sense, not the political sense), yet they voted for him because they hated their government?

It's obvious with hindsight that he was insane, but you have to consider the cultural/national zeitgeist of the German people. Plus, how many people honestly look deeply into the politics of an election, thats why we don't allow our people to choose the president in this country. He made a good case, was charismatic and was going to give Germany its own back ofter utter national humiliation, something that we Americans couldn't possibly understand :)
 
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Spectre

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From memory Mein Kampf was a poor seller before Hitler came to power so that is a mute point. Only 33% of the voters voted for Hitler.

Actually, it apparently sold quite well for the era. Wikipedia has this to say about it:

Although Hitler originally wrote this book mostly for the followers of national socialism, it grew in popularity. From the royalties, Hitler was able to afford a Mercedes while still imprisoned. Moreover, he accumulated a tax debt of 405,500 Reichsmark (8 million USD today, or ?4m UK Pounds Sterling) from the sale of about 240,000 copies by the time he became chancellor in 1933 (at which time his debt was waived).
 

Spectre

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240,000 is fuck all. The Nazi party had over 150,000 members.

Remember, at the time most people in Germany were scrabbling to come up with marks with which to buy bread and that most books in Germany sold poorly if at all. The books were often bought and lent out by libraries, and apparently in the years between publication and Hitler's rise to power it was very much in demand at those institutions, often referenced in newspapers and alluded to in other works of the era.

It's obvious with hindsight that he was insane, but you have to consider the cultural/national zeitgeist. Plus, how many people honestly look deeply into the politics of an election, thats why we don't allow our people to choose the president in this country. He made a good case, was charismatic and was going to give Germany its own back ofter utter national humiliation, something that we Americans couldn't possibly understand :)

Vietnam and Jimmy Carter weren't humiliation? :p (Yes, I know, not on the same scale. It's a joke.)

Again, Hitler wasn't the only competing party head with those capabilities or making those promises. He was, as best I have been able to tell, the only one who came with his own warning label; there were several other v?lkisch groups such as the Tatkreis that would have been a better selection.
 

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Remember, at the time most people in Germany were scrabbling to come up with marks with which to buy bread and that most books in Germany sold poorly if at all. The books were often bought and lent out by libraries, and apparently in the years between publication and Hitler's rise to power it was very much in demand at those institutions, often referenced in newspapers and alluded to in other works of the era.

You say i'm aruging that the German people knew he was insane:
So, you're saying that they knew Hitler was totally insane (in the clinical sense, not the political sense), yet they voted for him because they hated their government?

And your evidence for this is the 'good' sales figures for mein kampf. Yet when i say it didn't reach the German masses as less then 1% of the German voters had bought it, (of which who did there is a high chance that a lot of them were nazi party members) you tell me that not everyone could afford it? What?
 
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Spectre

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125px-Liebermann_portret_van_Paul_von_Hindenburg.jpg
115px-Adolf_Hitler_cph_3a48970.jpg
109px-Bundesarchiv_Bild_102-12940%2C_Ernst_Th%C3%A4lmann.jpg


Who do you think had more charisma and zeal? Who looks most like he'd lead Germany to victory? People vote image regardless of the actual politics. You know how it works it hasn't changed in however many hundreds/thousands of years since the Romans invented democracy...or was it the Greeks? whoever

Just by looking at pictures? Not a whole lot of difference between them visually (in terms of appeal to voters). You've got the old and experienced statesman, the shopkeeper and the laborer. (Just visually, not what they actually were or were not.)

However, contemporary sources wrote that while Hitler was a first rate orator, he was often verging on incoherency at times in the early days, and many of the competing speakers were about as charismatic as well as being coherent. :p Perhaps I'm overrating coherency. :p


You say i'm aruging that the German people knew he was insane:

And your evidence for this is the 'good' sales figures for mein kampf. Yet when i say it didn't reach the German masses as less then 1% of the German had bought it, (of which who did there is a high chance that a lot of them were nazi party members) you tell me that not everyone could afford it? What?

I am saying that it sold extraordinarily well for the time period and was (per contemporary reports) widely read and widely distributed via libraries and social lending. Again, contemporary mainstream German works (those that have survived) reference it, so it must have been common pop culture knowledge for the authors to have expected their intended audience to understand it.
 

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Bundesarchiv_Bild_102-12940%2C_Ernst_Th

115px-Adolf_Hitler_cph_3a48970.jpg

Paul_von_Hindenburg_Gw_hindenburg_01.png

I do believe the people voted on the awesomeness of the mustaches involved, and we can clearly see Hitler's was a second rate mustache compared to Hindenburg's fine example.
 
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Spectre

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115px-Adolf_Hitler_cph_3a48970.jpg

125px-Liebermann_portret_van_Paul_von_Hindenburg.jpg

I do believe the people voted on the awesomeness of the mustaches involved, and we can clearly see Hitler's was a second rate mustache compared to Hindenburg's fine example.

:lmao:

That might indicate an entirely different genetic defect, preferring men with moustaches. :D You may have something there; I would never have considered that. :lmao:
 

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Thats just conjecture. You can't assume that the 33% of people who voted for hitler had read mein kampf, that figure is 33 times the amount of the population who bought the book so unless their were was an astronomical amount of social lending and book borrowing, the only reasonable assumption is that the German people were ignorant of Mein kampf.
 

Spectre

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Thats just conjecture. You can't assume that the 33% of people who voted for hitler had read mein kampf, that figure is 33 times the amount of the population who bought the book so unless their were was an astronomical amount of social lending and book borrowing, the only reasonable assumption is that the German people were ignorant of Mein kampf.

I would disagree with you on that, as radio and reading (in a library) were pretty much the few amusements that were available and affordable in post-War Germany as best I can tell. There was a pretty astounding rate of library utilization by today's standards.
 

wooflepoof

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:lmao:

That might indicate an entirely different genetic defect, preferring men with moustaches. :D You may have something there; I would never have considered that. :lmao:

Though, genetic preference and sexual selection don't change every couple decades or so; I'm pretty sure they woulda been considered utter squares in the 50s and 60s :lol:
 

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I would disagree with you on that, as radio and reading (in a library) were pretty much the few amusements that were available and affordable in post-War Germany. There was a pretty astounding rate of library utilization by today's standards.

Unless you can provide some substancial evidence for this then the only logical assumption is that the German people on the whole had not read Mein Kampf.
 

Spectre

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Though, genetic preference and sexual selection don't change every couple decades or so; I'm pretty sure they woulda been considered utter squares in the 50s and 60s :lol:

Heh, well, perhaps it was bred out in that era. :lol: Most of the current and recent crops of Germans seems to be okay, in any case. :D










Except for this MacGuffin guy... :mrgreen:

Unless you can provide some substancial evidence for this then the only logical assumption is that the German people on the whole had not read Mein Kampf.

Wikipedia is a poor source at the best of times, but I've been cleaning up the house and my research tomes for this are packed away. However, they note the same thing:

Despite rumors to the contrary, new evidence suggests that it was actually in high demand in libraries and often reviewed and quoted in other publications. Hitler had made about 1.2 m Reichsmarks from the income of his book in 1933, when the average annual income of a teacher was about 4,800 Mark.

And no, I didn't write the Wikipedia bit. You can also reference the book Hitler's Mein Kampf in Britain and America: A Publishing History 1930-39, which is available on Amazon. On the first two pages of the book, they note that it was expensive to start, got cheaper, and was progressively printed in cheaper editions and larger numbers. Unpopular books do not get reprinted much...
 
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Spectre

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Yes it was printed in much larger numbers after the Nazis took control, wonder why that might be. Even giving them away, they only distributed 10 million by the wars end.

Per the discussion, I'm talking about before they took control. They sold a lot by the standards of the day, and it was not unusual for a book of that era to change hands 20 or more times in a year.

I'm certain this entire discussion will annoy MacGuffin no end. That's the point. :D Again, sorry to our other German members.
 
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MacGuffin

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Thanks, people, for trying to argue with Spectre, but as you can see, it's useless. He only picks the snippets of history, that fit into is existing wold view, and disregards the rest. And doesn't even realize that with this "gene theory" he follows the same racial delusions the Nazis were so famous for.

It's not only history, though, but can be found in all his postings.

@spectre: You wanna know the real reason, why I rarely let myself being provoked into a discussion with you and rather try to "laugh it off", like you say?

It's because you are too unimportant to me for wasting my time. You are a discussion partner I am not the slightest interested in sharing views with, mainly because I know that your views are set in concrete and all you seek here, is attention and confirmation for your existing opinions. You are not interested in discussions, sharing views, learning from each other. You are only interested in putting yourself in the limelight.

You do that quite well most of the time, I must admit, but the moment someone contradicts you or scratches at the surface or simply doesn't care or buy what you write, you tend to lose your temper and get personally insulting. Gone is the spectre we know, or rather the one you want us to be known.

It's in threads like these I believe people can see the true you. And it's not a pleasant view. With your replies you confirmed all I suspected and assumed.

I tried to tell it to you earlier with flowers in another topic, so here is the version without the sugar icing: I'm very much interested in serious discussions in this forum, I'm very much interested in gaining new knowledge, sharing points of view and maybe also can learn from others.

Just not with or from you.

The internet is a funny place, you know... With the right sources, you can go into a medical discussion forum and pretend being a brain surgeon, while in reality you are an unemployed plumber and spend most of the time before the PC. This is just a general remark, I'm not suggesting anything now.

And just for the record: There is no German race. There has never been. The population of Germany has always been a mixture of countless crossbreedings with people all over Europe. Our country is in the middle of Europe, it's a transit country, both for goods and genes. Has been that way since the fall of the Roman Empire. Probably even before that. The Nazis failed to see that there is no "pure German". Why do you, too?
 
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