Homeowner Munir Hussain jailed for attacking burglars who tied up family

tigger

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I think it was a fair ruling. Once the perpetrator was on the ground there surely was no need to hit him more.
Unless you're some kind of Zen master you're not going to be able to step back from that kind of situation. Even in US states without castle laws the mitigating factor of having his entire family threatened with death by pointy knives would have probably been enough to keep the Hussains out of jail.

Yes, he didn't need to go and make the guy "special" but given the emotional torment (anguish, adrenalin-fueled rage, paranoia) he was going through I wouldn't fault him for it. Also, some of you are talking like Hussain was trying to turn this guy into a pothole (maybe he was). But I know it doesn't take much to seriously hurt someone with a bat. He could've done that kind of damage with one swing.

Peter3hg said:
If a paper mentions an amazing fact, but then fails to elaborate on it, it means the fact isn't as amazing as you might imagine.
Usually it just means that they only had ~500 words worth of space and didn't need to elaborate. ;)
 

merp

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You cannot compare violent crime rates due to the difference in what is counted as violent crime. The US stats start with Aggravated Assault whereas in the UK everything including assault and battery, neither of which are even remotely close to the level of aggravated assault, are counted. As the vast majority of offences are assault or battery, it heavily skews the results. You can only compare offence for offence, for offences that are basically the same, such as murder, robbery, burglary and so on.


Using the data itself, and just going with the total for all crime, the US had 11,149,927 across the country, with an estimated population of 304,059,724 for year-end 2008.

The UK had, by comparison, a total of 10,687,000 with an estimated population of 60,943,912.

Ergo, the overall rate for the UK is 478% that of the US for YE 2008.
 

CAPT_Howdy

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While I agree that, legally, Mr Hussain's actions were excessive (Although I probably would have done the same thing in his situation.), I also think that the judge's sentence was excessive as well.
Do judges in the UK not have the option of a suspended sentence? How does it serve the Crown to keep Mr Hussain imprisoned while the men who attacked his family are free to commit further crimes?
 

SirEdward

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While I agree that, legally, Mr Hussain's actions were excessive (Although I probably would have done the same thing in his situation.), I also think that the judge's sentence was excessive as well.
Do judges in the UK not have the option of a suspended sentence? How does it serve the Crown to keep Mr Hussain imprisoned while the men who attacked his family are free to commit further crimes?

I am thinking pretty much the same.

I have to say that if I had been in Hussain situation, I would have pretty much tried to crush the burglar's head until his death. Therefore I'd rather have a gun that a bat in my hand if I had to be confronted to someone trying to kill me, because I probably wouldn't have to choose between exceeding my rights and let him get away and fine.

But I also think that it would have been right for me to be prosecuted for excessive use of self-defence. It's not like everything has one and only one solution and right or wrong are monolitical principle. I understand perfectly how Mr. Husain felt, but then I can not pretend not to see that he actually took the sanity (and he would have took the life) of a person while he was unarmed on the ground, so he has to pay for this regardless of his motives. Motives (both those of the burglar and those of Mr. Husain can modify the punishment, but hardly modify the essence of their actions).

As for the conviction, if he had been alone in beating the burglar, then I had to agree with phoenixsac and say that a suspended sentence would have been fine, but he was beating the man while helped by other men, so I can see it is a different story.

As for the burglar... He can not get away with nothing just because he is now retarded... Doesn't UK have facilities for the treatment of mentally-diseased criminals (I mean not the horror-movie sanitariums but a real helping facility)?
 

salle

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Whoa, whoa, a hostage situation is VERY different from a burglary. They tried to get out of there before the cops showed up

But it's still a step down from manslaughter or murder... so I fail to see your point. They could have killed him rather than let him run as well... I hardly see how a man tied behind his back throwing a coffee table can overpower 3 people with knives if they wouldn't hesitate to kill him.

Unless you're some kind of Zen master you're not going to be able to step back from that kind of situation. Even in US states without castle laws the mitigating factor of having his entire family threatened with death by pointy knives would have probably been enough to keep the Hussains out of jail.

Sure you are... if you think differently then you really don't understand how much power your frontal lobe actually have in controlling your anger, if you just let it. Self control over your emotions is what separates an adult from a child. And like with most things if you have bad self control you can learn to strengthen it.

But you seem to think it's acceptable and I guess that's good for you, you don't live in the UK. So be happy the laws where you live suite your philosophies of justice.
Revenge is never justice though, it's just a never ending cycle of hate.

While I agree that, legally, Mr Hussain's actions were excessive (Although I probably would have done the same thing in his situation.), I also think that the judge's sentence was excessive as well.
Do judges in the UK not have the option of a suspended sentence? How does it serve the Crown to keep Mr Hussain imprisoned while the men who attacked his family are free to commit further crimes?

I am thinking pretty much the same.

They got a heavily reduced sentence about a 4th of the time usually given for this sort of crime, if I remembered the articles correctly, due to the mitigating circumstances.
 

wooflepoof

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Sure you are... if you think differently then you really don't understand how much power your frontal lobe actually have in controlling your anger, if you just let it. Self control over your emotions is what separates an adult from a child. And like with most things if you have bad self control you can learn to strengthen it.

I think the history of humanity has very shown that it's not as easy as you apparently think it is.
 
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tigger

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How does it serve the Crown to keep Mr Hussain imprisoned while the men who attacked his family are free to commit further crimes?
Well said.

And like with most things if you have bad self control you can learn to strengthen it.
Hussain was a fairly prominent businessman, a community leader and from what I've seen, an all around good guy. I doubt he was someone who had problems with self-control. I still maintain that unless you are someone who regularly deals with life or death situations you will not be able to willingly "switch off" in that sort of situation.

But you seem to think it's acceptable and I guess that's good for you, you don't live in the UK. So be happy the laws where you live suite your philosophies of justice.
Revenge is never justice though, it's just a never ending cycle of hate.
:rolleyes: No, there is no justice in letting violent repeat offenders walk while an upstanding citizen, a regular "pillar of the community", spends years in jail. That is not justice.

I'll probably get flamed for this, but would it make a difference to any of you if Mr.Hussain and his compatriots were white? If Salem and his fellow criminals were Arab?
 

thevictor390

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I'll probably get flamed for this, but would it make a difference to any of you if Mr.Hussain and his compatriots were white? If Salem and his fellow criminals were Arab?

Dammit, we got so far without bringing that up. It clearly makes no difference at all in this case.

And for all we know, the criminals were Arab. I don't believe that was indicated either way in any of the articles linked.
 

salle

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No I don't care about crap like that. Just watch my stance in the burqa and minaret threads if you don't believe me.

I think it's sad when good people do bad things... but they do, but they should be punished just as much as bad people who does bad things. That's at least my view of justice. doing tonnes of good deeds before doing a bad doesn't make up for what you've done.

And in my view if you break a cricket bat on someone's head not once but twice... only if your life (or someone else's) was directly at that instance threatened, could I see that as justified.
But the guy was on the ground. This was no longer self defence in any sense of the word.
 

Spectre

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If he was still going for his knife or looked like he was, it doesn't matter that he was on the ground. He's still a threat.

That part wasn't noted anywhere that I can see.
 

salle

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If he was still going for his knife or looked like he was, it doesn't matter that he was on the ground. He's still a threat.

That part wasn't noted anywhere that I can see.

And lets think why it wasn't mentioned?
Because IF he had been doing something like that Hussein's defence and/or media that support his case (Daily Fail*) would have mentioned this. They, however, didn't. Which can only lead me to believe that Salem didn't reach for a weapon when he was on the ground before/during being turned into a retard by the assault. So can you please stop talking about hypothetical situations and lets stick to the facts presented to us?


*"As it is, he managed to catch Salem, beating him with a cricket bat in what his QC said was the 'agony of the moment'."
source
 

AiR

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I love the fact that people here second guess the court assuming they have missed something or do not know the law. Internet justice :lol:
 

Spectre

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I love the fact that people here second guess the court assuming they have missed something or do not know the law. Internet justice :lol:

Those of us that have been through a court system or have dealings with them or even just observed them know that courts miss things all the time. Sometimes accidentally, sometimes not - the latter especially in the case of the UK. They're all about 'sending social messages' in their court system.

Hell, they overlook 650+ burglaries even when admitted by the suspect. But defend yourself? Commit a crime against Gaia? Oh hell no, you're going to jail and they're throwing away the key.
 
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wooflepoof

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I love the fact that people here second guess the court assuming they have missed something or do not know the law. Internet justice :lol:

You should really take a law class ;)
 

Crazyjeeper

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That is how the the law operates, except the role of the courts is to objectively assess the crime. You are saying you want to make that judgment for yourself. A person who is biased and in a rage can not objectively asses their situation which is why we have the legal system. You say that him saying he is going to kill to kill his family is justifiable grounds for bashing his skull in when he had not inflicted any harm on any individual, and was fleeing at the time of the offense.

That is debatable. If he had them tied up, then that counts as harm to me.

If i say to you right now that I'm going to kill your wife while she is sleeping and make you watch before i set you on fire, you are arguing that gives you justifiable grounds to kill me. Its obvious im joking but you can't take your own form of justice on a completely ambiguous statement.

No, that would be ridiculous for me to kill you for merely threatening me. But, if you showed up in my front room, holding a gun, a gallon of gasoline and a zippo then I would assume that you where there to carry out your threat.
 

Peter3hg

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Those of us that have been through a court system or have dealings with them or even just observed them know that courts miss things all the time. Sometimes accidentally, sometimes not - the latter especially in the case of the UK. They're all about 'sending social messages' in their court system.

I'm sorry but you are chatting shit. It isn't up to the court to "miss" things or not. It is up to the prosecution and the defence to bring the evidence to the court. We (and the US) have an adversarial court system, not an inquisitorial system like a lot of other countries use.
Suggesting the victim was going for a knife is ludicrous. No witnesses mentioned it, and it wasn't mentioned by the defence, ergo it didn't happen. You are just plucking it out of your arse to try and defend the guy.
In case you haven't noticed, the jury convict the man, based on all the evidence (which we don't have), not the judge, so how can the conviction be to send a social message? If anything, the judge did the opposite by giving him a massively reduced sentence from the guidelines.
Do you have any experience of the English court system at all or are you just going off some articles you have read?


Hell, they overlook 650+ burglaries even when admitted by the suspect. But defend yourself? Commit a crime against Gaia? Oh hell no, you're going to jail and they're throwing away the key

That was a stupid decision but it was the polices stupid decision, although it has to be said the judge should have ignored their request.
 
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Spectre

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I'm sorry but you are chatting shit. It isn't up to the court to "miss" things or not. It is up to the prosecution and the defence to bring the evidence to the court. We (and the US) have an adversarial court system, not an inquisitorial system like a lot of other countries use.
Suggesting the victim was going for a knife is ludicrous. No witnesses mentioned it, and it wasn't mentioned by the defence, ergo it didn't happen. You are just plucking it out of your arse to try and defend the guy.
In case you haven't noticed, the jury convict the man, based on all the evidence (which we don't have), not the judge, so how can the conviction be to send a social message? If anything, the judge did the opposite by giving him a massively reduced sentence from the guidelines.
Do you have any experience of the English court system at all or are you just going off some articles you have read?


I unfortunately have had some dealings with the English court system and I was bloody lucky to come out of it without a prison term. Lucky, plus I was able to get a good solicitor and barrister team. The help of the US Embassy was also well timed.

A couple of your idiot yobs thought I would be a soft touch and tried kneecapping me. Let's just say that it didn't go quite the way they thought it would. When the local constable showed up one was trying to figure out when his balls would come back down from orbit and the other one was trying to breathe with my size 12 firmly planted on his throat while I tried to remember what the fuck the UK counterpart to 911 was supposed to be.

Despite the fact that their assault on me was unprovoked, I was charged with your equivalent of 'assault with a deadly weapon' since I was 'obviously a trained martial artist'.
 
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Peter3hg

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I unfortunately have had some dealings with the English court system and I was bloody lucky to come out of it without a prison term. Lucky, plus I was able to get a good solicitor and barrister team. The help of the US Embassy was also well timed.

A couple of your idiot yobs thought I would be a soft touch and tried kneecapping me. Let's just say that it didn't go quite the way they thought it would. When the local constable showed up one was trying to figure out when his balls would come back down from orbit and the other one was trying to breathe with my size 12 firmly planted on his throat while I tried to remember what the fuck the UK counterpart to 911 was supposed to be.

Despite the fact that their assault on me was unprovoked, I was charged with your equivalent of 'assault with a deadly weapon' since I was 'obviously a trained martial artist'.

Were you found guilty or acquitted?
 

Spectre

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After about three weeks of English legal system hell and about halfway through what I believe was some sort of preliminary hearing, the Crown dropped the charges. Seems their star witnesses were nowhere to be found.
 
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