Homeowner Munir Hussain jailed for attacking burglars who tied up family

Spectre

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One of the major trademarks of a civilized Western country is the monopoly on violence by the state. It's undisputable for me. A civilized society can only function properly, if everyone accepts and respects that principle.

Oh, I really should resist my urge to do this, but I really can't.

It's really... interesting... that it's a German that brought this up and apparently believes in the concept. You really shouldn't have mentioned that, because you opened the door for this:

s_monopoly.jpg


history_s.jpg


s_order.jpg


Before you complain, remember that you opened the door.

The guy who photographed and designed those posters has a very interesting site with more professional photography here:



He does not think that "the state should have a total monopoly on violence" because the last time 'a civilized Western country' did, half his family died. Guess where.
 
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salle

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Quite sure nazi germany never banned peoples guns... private militias were very common in the weimar republic... the nazi's were one of them...
I might be speaking up my arse though... but it was due to the dismantling of the weimar army that those private militias started...
 

Spectre

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Quite sure nazi germany never banned peoples guns... private militias were very common in the weimar republic... the nazi's were one of them...
I might be speaking up my arse though... but it was due to the dismantling of the weimar army that those private militias started...

Gun control was introduced in Germany in 1928 by the Weimar regime ('The Law on Firearms and Ammunition" was ironically a means to try to control the Nazi SA.) However, it was expanded and extended by the Nazi Third Reich in 1938. Specifically, it banned Jews from the manufacture or possession of any firearms or ammunition, a total ban for those people.

To put it exceedingly bluntly: In March 1938, the Nazis adopted the new firearms law; in October, they disarmed Berlin?s Jews using the Weimar firearm registration records; and in November, the Nazis instigated Reichskristallnacht, Gestapo Chief Himmler decreed that any Jew with a weapon would face twenty years in a concentration camp, and Interior Minister Frick promulgated a regulation making it a five-year offense for a Jew to possess a weapon. (courtesy of Steve Halbrook's law review article.)

I don't think I really need to remind you of what happened next, do I?
 
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wooflepoof

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"The beauty of the second amendment is that it will not be needed until they try to take it." -Thomas Jefferson

What country can preserve its liberties if its rulers are not warned from time to time that their people preserve the spirit of resistance?-Thomas Jefferson

Experience hath shewn, that even under the best forms [of government] those entrusted with power have, in time, and by slow operations, perverted it into tyranny.-Thomas Jefferson

I could do this all day :)

source

EDIT: one more

"Laws that forbid the carrying of arms..disarm only those who are neither inclined nor determined to commit crimes. Such laws make things worse for the assaulted and better for the assailants; they serve rather to encourage than prevent homicides, for an unarmed man may be attacked with greater confidence than an armed one." - Thomas Jefferson quoting Cesare Beccaria, Criminologist in 1764. That was 230 years ago. -Thomas Jefferson
 
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jetsetter

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One of the major trademarks of a civilized Western country is the monopoly on violence by the state. It's undisputable for me. A civilized society can only function properly, if everyone accepts and respects that principle.

Our definitions of "civilized" differ greatly. I believe a civilized country uses death as punishment for some crimes. I believe a civilized country is one in which the citizenry have the right to own firearms and protect themselves. Countries lacking the aforementioned are indeed less civilized.
 

Spectre

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People who will rise against their government are people who would have the means to arm them selves anyway. You can't really tell me you own a gun incase your government turns into a repressive one.

Franz Ferdinand would disagree with you on the efficacy of a single man with a pistol and his ability to change a government.

Oh, wait. He can't. He's dead. His government/empire died as a result, too.
 
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Cold Fussion

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You didn't answer my question. Ferdinand was killed by a revolutionary, and the government only changed as a result of the war, of which there is a good chance they might of won had the US not entered into WW1. The point is, Princip, indirectly caused WW1 but he in no way facilitated the change in the Government or the downfall of the Austrian Empire.
 

Crazyjeeper

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People who will rise against their government are people who would have the means to arm them selves anyway. You can't really tell me you own a gun incase your government turns into a repressive one.

That actually sounds like a damn good reason to own a gun. The government should fear the people, the people should not fear the government.
 

wooflepoof

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Fear shouldn't be part of the equation at all.

and banks shouldn't give out risky short term interest only loans to people who had no real means to pay them back, and then bundle them up as securities backed by subprime mortgages which would then create large decreases in capital for financial institutions as people defaulted on their loans creating massive credit problems for the banks and other financial firms worldwide.

Still, shit happens and you often need to look at reality instead of trying to describe a perfect world in which, the government work wholly in the best interests of the people.
 
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Cold Fussion

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A government shouldn't operate in fear as it unable to operate effectively. Part of the point of democracy is that we can vote out governments that do not represent the people accordingly, instead of having to overthrow in a dictatorship or a monarchy.
 

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Fear shouldn't be part of the equation at all.

Fear is one of the great human behavior modulators. Sorry if this spoils your worldview, but that?s how it is.
 

Spectre

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AiR

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Then what motivation does the government have to not fuck its people over if it feels like it?
The goverment is the people in my world.
 

Spectre

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The goverment is the people in my world.

So, you're saying that because the government consists of people, it would never oh, I don't know, march unpopular people off to concentration camps, commit genocide on their own citizens of certain race/religions, or place its own citizens into slavery? Yeah, right. Suuuure.

We don't even have to go back to the 1940s for an example. Kosovo ring a bell? Serbia?

It's because governments are made of people and, as the quote goes, power corrupts, that the government needs to be placed in fear of the people, lest it get too big for its britches.
 
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Cold Fussion

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Then what motivation does the government have to not fuck its people over if it feels like it?

By the way, armed citizens have, in fact, successfully resisted despotic elected government inside the United States.

If the government fucks over its people, they should fear being voted out in the next election. (Purely from a corrupt/opressive standpoint).
 

Spectre

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If the government fucks over its people, they should fear being voted out in the next election. (Purely from a corrupt/opressive standpoint).

Hm, and what voting rights did the Jews have? Oh, that's right, NONE.

Go read that Wikipedia link. See what happened when the residents of McMinn County tried that approach. They were beaten, shot, and falsely imprisoned. Only by force of arms (both privately held and those that could be commandeered by either raiding the National Guard armory or by use of those privately held arms) were they able to restore the fair rule of law.
 
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Cold Fussion

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Hm, and what voting rights did the Jews have? Oh, that's right, NONE.

In Germany you mean? The jews had equal voting rights to 'pure germans' in the weimar republic, after the nazis came to power democracy was dissolved and thus no one had voting rights.
 
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Spectre

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In Germany? The jews had equal voting rights to 'pure germans' in the weimar republic, after the nazis came to power democracy was dissolved and thus no one had voting rights.

Yup.

But you proposed that a corrupt or oppressive government could be voted out. How do you propose that that could happen after the Nazis took over in Germany?

Oh, and there were elections after they took over. November 1933. No other parties were allowed. How does "vote them out' work, again?
 
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