Idiots + cars = LOL

Cowboy

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I agree, let evolution do it's job....

That's the problem in this world, the useless are no longer weeded out and left to breed.
 

Blind_Io

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For once I'm with Narf.

Kids don't have the cognitive maturity to understand consequences or think long-term, even adolescents are terrible at this. Parents should absolutely be required to restrain children in a car, but I could honestly give less of a shit about adults making stupid choices for themselves.
 

Eye-Q

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Seatbelt use should not be mandated by law.
While I agree that some things are over-regulated this is one point which IMHO clearly isn't. If seatbelts weren't mandatory the death toll would be much higher, same thing with helmets on motorbikes. Even though the amount of traffic rose exponentially in the last 50 years the death toll dropped, seatbelts (among other active and passive measures) play a big role in that drop.

Even if you're the most careful driver in the world and think you'll never ever need a seatbelt the risk of others making errors, having a stroke, whatever and suddenly skidding into your lane is pretty high. I've experienced a head-on collision (not my fault, the other driver came skidding out of a corner) which I wouldn't have survived without a seatbelt. The risk of getting stuck in a crashed car with your seatbelt on is miniscule to the risk of being thrown out of the car or just into the dashboard or wherever when you don't wear your seatbelt.

I agree, let evolution do it's job....
...so the heirs of the deceased can sue because there was no clear sign of the dangers of driving without a seatbelt?
 

Blind_Io

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Put a warning label in the owner's manual book of lawyer's warnings.
 

LeVeL

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Even for kids who can't make an informed decision about that yet?
For once I'm with Narf.

Kids don't have the cognitive maturity to understand consequences or think long-term, even adolescents are terrible at this. Parents should absolutely be required to restrain children in a car, but I could honestly give less of a shit about adults making stupid choices for themselves.
I can see it being mandated for kids. I can also see it being left to the parents' discretion. Idk.


If seatbelts weren't mandatory the death toll would be much higher, same thing with helmets on motorbikes.
Yup. And if someone wants to accept that risk and not use a seatbelt or helmet, that's their problem, not yours or mine. I'm very anal about seatbelt use and I'm always buckled in and force it on my passengers too but I also believe that I have no business telling someone how much risk is or isn't acceptable for them in their own automobile or on their own motorcycle, as it doesn't really affect me.
 

Blind_Io

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No one is saying seat belts aren't important, only that people are going to make their own decisions.

My dad told me a story when I was younger of a meeting he attended as a department head in the military. In this meeting a Major (mid-level officer rank) proposed a new regulation to ban soldiers from tying their boot laces together and throwing them into the overhead service lines. It somehow got started as a tradition that soldiers leaving the Army at this base would do this with their service boots. The Major had slides of boots hanging from wires, explanations of the cost of removing the boots, how it affected the aesthetic of the installation - on and on about this issue. Finally the base commander stopped him and said, "Major, you can't legislate common sense." The CO ended the Major's presentation and got back to other business.

People who are not going to wear a seat belt to avoid becoming a human cannonball are not going to be forced into wearing a seat belt by a fine. At some point dumb people will do dumb things and all the laws, regulations, and nannying won't change that. It may sound callous, but there are people who will die as a result of their own stupidity - this is inevitable. You can require motorcyclists wear helmets, and the Harley Riders who watch too much Sons of Anarchy will go get the smallest, shittiest helmet they can find to avoid tickets. Hell, I've seen guys wearing novelty decorative helmets instead of ones with a DOT approval as a passive-aggressive "fuck you" to the law.

Think about that for a second. This is a person who is intentionally wearing a helmet that does nothing to protect them in a crash simply because they are required to wear a helmet to avoid being cited.

That is the level of stupidity we are dealing with
 

prizrak

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No one is saying seat belts aren't important, only that people are going to make their own decisions.

My dad told me a story when I was younger of a meeting he attended as a department head in the military. In this meeting a Major (mid-level officer rank) proposed a new regulation to ban soldiers from tying their boot laces together and throwing them into the overhead service lines. It somehow got started as a tradition that soldiers leaving the Army at this base would do this with their service boots. The Major had slides of boots hanging from wires, explanations of the cost of removing the boots, how it affected the aesthetic of the installation - on and on about this issue. Finally the base commander stopped him and said, "Major, you can't legislate common sense." The CO ended the Major's presentation and got back to other business.

People who are not going to wear a seat belt to avoid becoming a human cannonball are not going to be forced into wearing a seat belt by a fine. At some point dumb people will do dumb things and all the laws, regulations, and nannying won't change that. It may sound callous, but there are people who will die as a result of their own stupidity - this is inevitable. You can require motorcyclists wear helmets, and the Harley Riders who watch too much Sons of Anarchy will go get the smallest, shittiest helmet they can find to avoid tickets. Hell, I've seen guys wearing novelty decorative helmets instead of ones with a DOT approval as a passive-aggressive "fuck you" to the law.

Think about that for a second. This is a person who is intentionally wearing a helmet that does nothing to protect them in a crash simply because they are required to wear a helmet to avoid being cited.

That is the level of stupidity we are dealing with

All of this, I see HOG riders in helmets that even I, a non rider, can easily tell are useless. Not to mention flip flops and t-shirts.
 

narf

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No one is saying seat belts aren't important, only that people are going to make their own decisions.

My dad told me a story when I was younger of a meeting he attended as a department head in the military. In this meeting a Major (mid-level officer rank) proposed a new regulation to ban soldiers from tying their boot laces together and throwing them into the overhead service lines. It somehow got started as a tradition that soldiers leaving the Army at this base would do this with their service boots. The Major had slides of boots hanging from wires, explanations of the cost of removing the boots, how it affected the aesthetic of the installation - on and on about this issue. Finally the base commander stopped him and said, "Major, you can't legislate common sense." The CO ended the Major's presentation and got back to other business.

People who are not going to wear a seat belt to avoid becoming a human cannonball are not going to be forced into wearing a seat belt by a fine. At some point dumb people will do dumb things and all the laws, regulations, and nannying won't change that. It may sound callous, but there are people who will die as a result of their own stupidity - this is inevitable. You can require motorcyclists wear helmets, and the Harley Riders who watch too much Sons of Anarchy will go get the smallest, shittiest helmet they can find to avoid tickets. Hell, I've seen guys wearing novelty decorative helmets instead of ones with a DOT approval as a passive-aggressive "fuck you" to the law.

Think about that for a second. This is a person who is intentionally wearing a helmet that does nothing to protect them in a crash simply because they are required to wear a helmet to avoid being cited.

That is the level of stupidity we are dealing with

People aren't only black and white.
There's people who will wear a seatbelt/helmet regardless of the law because they understand the physics.
There's people who won't - regardless of the law, despite understanding the physics.
However, there are at least 50 shades of grey in between. Kids who can't make that decision yet. Adults who don't have a hardened position for either side. Adults who don't understand the physics. I could go on and on.
Laws like these mostly are for the large grey mush between the extremes.

Looking at history, with the mandatory introduction of seat belts in cars - not the mandatory use of seat belts by occupants - seat belt use was around 39% in the mid-70s. Education got that up to 58% in March 84. Since August 84 there's a small fine for not wearing a seat belt, and seat belt use rose above 90% within 84. https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sicherheitsgurt#Anlegequoten
In other words, the fine got a significant increase in use in extremely short time - it's super effective.
 

Blind_Io

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I doubt that today you would have much argument with most people about wearing a seat belt (as for kids, if you notice, I did agree with you on that). Smoking rates also dropped significantly, not because of a fine for smoking, but because of increased awareness of health concerns. In the Mid-70s there were still a lot of cars on the road that didn't even have seat belts, or the belts they had were a token gesture at best. By the mid 80s many of those old lap-belt and no-belt cars were off the road as daily drivers, but you still had a big population that grew up without seat belts at all and would not use them.

Sure, a fine may help push a few people off the fence to avoid a fine and create initial momentum, but we have had 30 years of that by now; the people who are going to refuse to wear a belt are not going to be convinced by a fine or PSAs. If you quietly removed the seat belt laws tomorrow, my bet is that nearly every person who wears a belt today will still wear one next week.
 

narf

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Sure, a fine may help push a few people off the fence to avoid a fine and create initial momentum

Look at the numbers I posted earlier. It took a decade of education to gain about 20 percentage points, a small fine did over 30 percentage points in months.
There was no significant change in the number of seat belts present in cars within those months so it doesn't even matter that I'm not sure if those percentages are "seat belts worn overall" or "seat belts worn in cars with seat belts"... the latter would make more sense of course.

we have had 30 years of that by now

Compliance is hardly a reason to get rid of a rule... see voting rights troubles... or, to stick with cars, hardly anyone runs red lights and those that do aren't swayed by the fine - let's make running red lights legal?

the people who are going to refuse to wear a belt are not going to be convinced by a fine or PSAs.

Agree there, those few with a hardened position on either side don't care at all about the fine. The target is the big grey mush in the middle - those without a strong opinion on the subject, without the education, without the ability to decide, etc.

If you quietly removed the seat belt laws tomorrow, my bet is that nearly every person who wears a belt today will still wear one next week.

Next week? Probably no change, habits are like that.
Compliance would wane over time though, especially due to people who haven't built up that habit yet.
 

LeVeL

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Sure, a law probably increases the use of seatbelts and reduces fatalities. My point is that adults can decide for themselves how to weigh the inconvenience of putting on a seatbelt versus increased risk of injury or death. If an adult decides not to wear a seatbelt, that's their business, not mine, because they're the ones that will be headbutting the windshield. You take your life into your own hands, no need for a nanny.
 

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I'm not against seatbelts etc, they do save lives and that's all good, people should be educated and aware of dangers. I do however wonder sometimes what are we saving ourselves for all the time. Life is increasingly less fun and especially driving/riding in a car boring beyond description. Friend of mine is constantly wondering why his 13yo is playing video games all day, but god forbid he'd let him go outside, with zomg cars and danger and all terrible stuff. Poor shmuck is not even allowed to walk to school by himself. What else's he going to do but sit on his ass all day and play video games. I'm really so glad I don't have to be a kid these days. Being a constantly restrained adult sucks balls enough. Riding around town I don't wear a seatbelt because I just don't feel like it and you can suck it. I don't feel the least bit threatened by the everpresent danger just waiting to kill me. I don't lock my front door either. I had my 14 & 15yo nieces ride thru the sunroof around Manhattan two years ago. They had a blast and we all survived just fine.
 

kurthest

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Sure, a law probably increases the use of seatbelts and reduces fatalities. My point is that adults can decide for themselves how to weigh the inconvenience of putting on a seatbelt versus increased risk of injury or death. If an adult decides not to wear a seatbelt, that's their business, not mine, because they're the ones that will be headbutting the windshield. You take your life into your own hands, no need for a nanny.

I feel the same about speed limits...
 

Peter3hg

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Sure, a law probably increases the use of seatbelts and reduces fatalities. My point is that adults can decide for themselves how to weigh the inconvenience of putting on a seatbelt versus increased risk of injury or death. If an adult decides not to wear a seatbelt, that's their business, not mine, because they're the ones that will be headbutting the windshield. You take your life into your own hands, no need for a nanny.

This is fine in theory except it ignores the fact that it costs society as a whole to have more trauma and lifelong injuries, it doesn't just affect the moron.
 

narf

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Sure, a law probably increases the use of seatbelts and reduces fatalities. My point is that adults can decide for themselves how to weigh the inconvenience of putting on a seatbelt versus increased risk of injury or death. If an adult decides not to wear a seatbelt, that's their business, not mine, because they're the ones that will be headbutting the windshield. You take your life into your own hands, no need for a nanny.

By not wearing a seat belt in an accident you do affect others. Take the 25mph fender bender example, occupants wearing a seat belt will walk away from that, allowing a swift clean-up and little road closure. Without a seat belt that turns into injuries, that road closure will inevitably be larger and longer, and more public services get involved at everyone's expense. The significantly increased risk of getting disabled puts a drain on society - you'll probably lose your current job, get hefty medical bills, require public assistance, etc. and the investment made by society to raise and educate you is wasted. Same thing in faster accidents, you're much more likely to die... a young adult's death is a huge cost for society.

You could of course now argue that pensioners should be banned from wearing seat belts :evil:


There's another factor, a seat belt helps you stay in control of your car. During heavy braking or fast cornering, the roller will lock and keep you in place (at least in most cars I've driven recently, certainly not in older ones) - increasing your chance of avoiding an accident... accidents that obviously could involve other people, property, public services, or just road closures annoying everyone else.
 

LeVeL

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By not wearing a seat belt in an accident you do affect others. Take the 25mph fender bender example, occupants wearing a seat belt will walk away from that, allowing a swift clean-up and little road closure. Without a seat belt that turns into injuries, that road closure will inevitably be larger and longer, and more public services get involved at everyone's expense. The significantly increased risk of getting disabled puts a drain on society - you'll probably lose your current job, get hefty medical bills, require public assistance, etc. and the investment made by society to raise and educate you is wasted. Same thing in faster accidents, you're much more likely to die... a young adult's death is a huge cost for society.

You could of course now argue that pensioners should be banned from wearing seat belts :evil:


There's another factor, a seat belt helps you stay in control of your car. During heavy braking or fast cornering, the roller will lock and keep you in place (at least in most cars I've driven recently, certainly not in older ones) - increasing your chance of avoiding an accident... accidents that obviously could involve other people, property, public services, or just road closures annoying everyone else.
Ah, so anything that might prolong a road closure is an unacceptable risk? Engine oil should be banned because if it spills in a crash it takes longer to clean up.
Or maybe anything that creates additional traffic should be banned too? In that case bicycles should be banned from the roadway, as should cars in general, really - buses and trains only from now on, right?
Disability is an unacceptable "drain on society", eh? Let's ban all sports then, including jogging and weightlifting.
A young person's death is too great a cost to society? I'll just stop here before going on a pro-life rant.

Life is full of risks, deal with it. If someone wants to put themselves at greater risk, that's their own damn business.
 
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93Flareside

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So, you're saying if I crash my car without a seatbelt, I'll be making my possible death a higher drag on society? But... that's why I drive without a seatbelt, so that one day I will no longer be a drag on society like the useless man I am. :cry:


It's a joke, I'm not suicidal, I got over that phase in my teens.
 

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In case nobody has noticed, LeVeL is a libertarian. :p

I have no stance on this one, we're all big boys now and capable of making our own decisions. Having said that, I'm very glad that manufacturers are forced to put seatbelts and airbags on their cars. It's a good measure against the idiocy of others. They have already saved my life once.
 
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