Israel attacks humanitarian aid convoy in international waters

Plissken

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The Israelis did release a photo of the "weapons". Basically, it was all the knives in the galley - including the sharpener. I'll try and find it.

That was all, from a ship full with over 600 people they were reduced to trying to claim that the galley was full of weapons.

"He attacked me with a whisk, sir."
"OK soldier, permission to shoot him in the face granted."
 

Plissken

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nomix

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Plissken, the soldiers had sidearms with live rounds. That was admitted a few hours after the raid.
 

Plissken

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More interesting parts of the story are coming out.

Apparently, when the Israelis requested to board the other five ships, the crews of these ships complied and Israeli soldiers inspected them and sent them on to Ashdod. The crews of these ships complied and had set sail for Ashdod. The sixth ship, which was organized by IHH, didn't comply with this request. In fact, transcripts of communications between the Israeli Navy and the Marmara show the simple reply of the Marmara's captain to the Israeli Naval forces, "Fuck you."

Just to refute this one, the former US Envoy to Baghdad was on Olbermann last night. He was on one of the other ships, and says the first they knew of anything was when armed guys in balaclavas threw a stun grenade on deck and then boarded. There was no "request", there was no "permission to inspect".
 

Plissken

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Plissken, the soldiers had sidearms with live rounds. That was admitted a few hours after the raid.

I didn't know they had admitted it - but they initially claimed it. And I'll remind everyone of that claim every time someone believes Israels side of the story.

US citizen too. Fallout could be interesting.


Some analysis (disclaimer: not sure of the source) of the photos that the IDF have posted on their own Flickr page claiming to be the weapons seized.

http://www.politicaltheatrics.net/2...ns/?utm_source=twitterfeed&utm_medium=twitter

The EXIF data shows some of them were taken in 2006. Whoopsy!
 
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jetsetter

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Please explain why you think the passengers onboard the Marvi Marvara are violent douchebags but the passengers of the SS President Warfield were not.

Intent and the motivations behind those on the vessels.

The only thing that is different between these two incidents are that the Marvi Marvara was attacked in international waters.

As I have made it clear the whole "international waters" argument is a nonstarter for me. It was close enough.

Remember, ladies and gentlemen, paintball markers.

What about sidearms do none of you understand? Of course they had pistols at their sides, that is a given and did not need to be explained by anyone. In addition to their sidearms they were carrying paintball markers.
 
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brydie76

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As I have made it clear the whole "international waters" argument is a nonstarter for me. It was close enough.

So if I aim for Mexico in a state sanctioned missile strike and hit Arizona, can I claim close enough and be scot free from punishment?
 

nomix

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I didn't know they had admitted it - but they initially claimed it. And I'll remind everyone of that claim every time someone believes Israels side of the story.

US citizen too. Fallout could be interesting.
There has been no secrecy surrounding the use and deployment of live rounds. What we don't yet know is wether the Israelis fired on the crowd before they entered the ship with the paintball weapons. I don't think it would show up on video, as the video quality is poor. But the use of live rounds were only authorized (according to the IDF) once the situation got out of hand.

jetsetter, don't know if you saw this, care to comment?
At this point, I'll point out that all the video footage does not appear to have been released yet. Why do you suppose Israel is still holding back footage, jetsetter?
 

Plissken

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There has been no secrecy surrounding the use and deployment of live rounds.

On Page 1, Jetsetter posted a report by Ron Ben Yashin which said

However, to their misfortune, they were only equipped with paintball rifles used to disperse minor protests, such as the ones held in Bilin.

Only equipped with paintball rifles.
 

laxmax613

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The Israelis did release a photo of the "weapons". Basically, it was all the knives in the galley - including the sharpener. I'll try and find it.

That was all, from a ship full with over 600 people they were reduced to trying to claim that the galley was full of weapons.

"He attacked me with a whisk, sir."
"OK soldier, permission to shoot him in the face granted."

it's not about what the weapon is, but how it is used. if i attack you with a shotgun full of buckshot, can i justify it by saying that it shouldn't matter because the gun is meant for killing deer and not people?
 

Plissken

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it's not about what the weapon is, but how it is used. if i attack you with a shotgun full of buckshot, can i justify it by saying that it shouldn't matter because the gun is meant for killing deer and not people?

That is not the point. The point is the Israelis are taking ordinary, indeed necessary objects and claiming they are weapons. It is like walking onto a building site and then claiming the bricks are there as weapons. Under that basis a newspaper is a weapon, because it can be rolled up to hit someone over the head.
 

laxmax613

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That is not the point. The point is the Israelis are taking ordinary, indeed necessary objects and claiming they are weapons. It is like walking onto a building site and then claiming the bricks are there as weapons. Under that basis a newspaper is a weapon, because it can be rolled up to hit someone over the head.

did you not see the video of the "activists" preparing to retaliate violently?
 

Plissken

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did you not see the video of the "activists" preparing to retaliate violently?

The one where they were reacting to being teargassed, stun grenaded and stormed in international waters by men in balaclavas carrying guns? That one?
 

nomix

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On Page 1, Jetsetter posted a report by Ron Ben Yashin which said



Only equipped with paintball rifles.
Yeah. But I still remember quotes from IDF spokespeople early that day saying they had sidearms with live rounds, not to mention the fact it has been repeated for the last couple of days. I can't be bothered to dig a timed source, you'll have to take my word.
 

tigger

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On Page 1 ...
So you stopped reading articles posted after page 1? :p We've been talking about the use of sidearms for more than half of this discussion.

There has been no secrecy surrounding the use and deployment of live rounds. What we don't yet know is wether the Israelis fired on the crowd before they entered the ship with the paintball weapons. I don't think it would show up on video, as the video quality is poor. But the use of live rounds were only authorized (according to the IDF) once the situation got out of hand.
I'd love to see the video in it's entirety as well. But the IDF will never release it. Personally I doubt that the IDF started firing live rounds before they landed. Firing live rounds and then boarding with non-lethal weapons doesn't make sense. Otherwise, why the hell would all those guys still have been on deck? No way they would've just stood there, completely in the open, waiting to be picked off. If the IDF had come in there guns blazing there would be more dead. And if their intent was only murder, then they would've killed people on the other ships as well. The IDF is claiming these guys were armed to the teeth, which is bullshit. But you can see in the video that they're beating the hell out of the commandos, even throwing one off the upper deck of the ship. That simply wouldn't have happened if these guys went in there with submachine guns firing at will.
 
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Plissken

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So you stopped reading articles posted after page 1? :p We've been talking about the use of sidearms for more than half of this discussion.

You know and I know that at least 9 people don't die from paintball markers. But Jetsetter said they were using them, Ron Ben Yashin said they were using them, the Israelis said they were using them.

So every time someone quotes the Israelis I'll respond with "paintball markers". Because I take the fairly reasonable position that if the opening move is to blatantly lie, then all the subsequent moves are blatant lies.

Tear gas source - here you go. http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2010/jun/03/british-survivor-gaza-flotilla
 
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nomix

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I'd love to see the video in it's entirety as well. But the IDF will never release it. Personally I doubt that the IDF started firing live rounds before they landed. Firing live rounds and then boarding with non-lethal weapons doesn't make sense. Otherwise, why the hell would all those guys still have been on deck? No way they would've just stood there, completely in the open, waiting to be picked off. If the IDF had come in there guns blazing there would be more dead. And if their intent was only murder, then they would've killed people on the other ships as well. The IDF is claiming these guys were armed to the teeth, which is bullshit. But you can see in the video that they're beating the hell out of the commandos, even throwing one off the upper deck of the ship. That simply wouldn't have happened if these guys went in there with submachine guns firing at will.
Indeed. What I think might have been seen as gunfire is potential use of paintballguns before the boarding. The footage probably wouldn't show it as it's bloody dark and crappy, and even if it is, we don't have all of the video.

I think it would explain some claims if the commandos employed their paintball guns before bording, as a piece of crowd control. As I've said, we don't have the footage to prove or disprove it. I do not belive the commandos fired live rounds into sleeping people, it seems like a very unlikely thing to do.

You know and I know that at least 9 people don't die from paintball markers. But Jetsetter said they were using them, Ron Ben Yashin said they were using them, the Israelis said they were using them.
And they were using paintball guns. But I read early the first day that Israel said the commandos were carrying sidearms with live rounds, which were used, two taken from commandos and used by the protestors.
 

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nomix said:
Indeed. What I think might have been seen as gunfire is potential use of paintballguns before the boarding. The footage probably wouldn't show it as it's bloody dark and crappy, and even if it is, we don't have all of the video.

I think it would explain some claims if the commandos employed their paintball guns before bording, as a piece of crowd control. As I've said, we don't have the footage to prove or disprove it. I do not belive the commandos fired live rounds into sleeping people, it seems like a very unlikely thing to do.
You can just barely see the markers (their hoppers, specifically) in one of the videos jetsetter posted. But I wouldn't be surprised if some people thought they were guns. A paintball marker can look/sound rather like a silenced gun. I seriously doubt sleeping people were shot, as well.

Ha, I remember some kids getting in a ridiculous amount of trouble here because they drove around shooting people with a paintball gun (made to look like a MP5, iirc) with red paint. Scared the shit out people.

You know and I know that at least 9 people don't die from paintball markers. But Jetsetter said they were using them, Ron Ben Yashin said they were using them, the Israelis said they were using them.

So every time someone quotes the Israelis I'll respond with "paintball markers". Because I take the fairly reasonable position that if the opening move is to blatantly lie, then all the subsequent moves are blatant lies.
No one is claiming that 9 people died from paintball markers. Like nomix stated, things went wrong (like they usually do when you abseil into an angry, bat wielding crowd), and the commandos gave up on the markers and used their pistols. Probably (and this is just my opinion) after the guys on the boat got one or two of the commando's pistols. You can see the commandos using paintball markers in one of the videos that jetsetter posted (page 3 iirc).

As for the exaggerations and outright lies, both sides are full of them. Considering this, I think it's better to use a little logic (plus the little video actually available) and try to best work out what happened. I'm not going to entirely dismiss one sides account, because then all you're left with is the other sides equally biased account.
 

Firecat

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Yeah. But I still remember quotes from IDF spokespeople early that day saying they had sidearms with live rounds, not to mention the fact it has been repeated for the last couple of days. I can't be bothered to dig a timed source, you'll have to take my word.

I'll give as much weight to what the IDF claims as I would give to what the activists said. And former US Ambassador Edward Peck has said the alleged paintball guns were attached to automatic weapons, and others on the ships have also made similar claims. There were several ships, so maybe some soldiers just had paintball guns and others carried other weapons. I don't think it really matters what they were packing...it's the dead of night and soldiers are dropping onto your ship.....who is really paying attention to what kind of guns they have?

If there was only some way to prove it like, I dunno, a video?
 
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