JC's got a point: BMW has gone mad.

Crazzysimon

Crazzysimon

Member
Joined
Jun 2, 2006
Messages
47
Location
Vancouver, Canada.
Car(s)
2003 B5.5 VW Passat 1.8T
Well, to start off, I am new here and this is my first post. So greetings all. =)

I've watched Top Gear not for long. As this is Hong Kong, there're no good motoring shows around. Last year my friend in Canada sent me a clip of Jeremy Clarkson driving a Koenigsegg CC or whatever and I was astonished. I was surprised that there's someone who actually can make a motoring show as funny as hell, and it's something hard to achieve considering that a lot of motoring shows are about how many bhps or what sort of engines a car has, and then move on. They're boring as hell.

I was also stunned by how the Top Gear crew voices out their opinions. Here in Hong Kong, automotive journalists can't speak evil about rubbish cars since eventually nobody is going to let them do a test-drive. Of course, as it's just opinions, it means that there're times that you might disagree. But in this case, I am typing because I just saw this post earlier and I want to share my point of view as well.

I've read the post about Jeremy Clarkson being an anti-BMW bloke who likes Mercs. Well, I can't say that it's untrue, but the fact of the matter is, you can't blame him for not liking BMWs. They've got completely mad.

Think about it. The only good-looking BMWs made recently is the Z4, and... that's about it. The 3-series looks like it's made by some factories in Cuba, the 5-series looks like someone has punched it in the nose, the 6 series looks like a bread and the 7 series is... well, a bit less irratating, but still not quite good-looking as the old one. Not to mention the X3, which beats the Porsche Cayenne to be the ugliest SUV in the world. Seriously, Russian's Lada makes cars better looking than that.

And the i-Drive. This has to be one of the most irratating system in the world. Who needs 11 settings in a sports car? It's hard to use, stupidly complicated and when the system is broken, you can't drive it since it controls suspension, engine power and most of the things.

Where are the nice BMWs? Remember the times when the E36 3 series was good looking and popular? Remember how cool it was to watch 7 series in James Bond movie? JC did put the old M5 as one of the best cars ever made(I got a ride on my friend's M5 before, and I can see why), and in 2004, despite the i-Drive, the new M5 was still nominated in Top Gear Awards. So you can't really say that the Top Gear crew is biased, can you?

The fact of the matter is, BMW's quality is going down, and it doesn't take a microscope to notice that.

What about Mercs? Well, they were going down as well. The M class was rubbish, and the C class' had a bad interior quality. However, note that I said "were". The new S class was certainly better looking than the 7 series, and the COMMAND system is a heck lot easier to use. Don't get me wrong, I don't think it's cool to have a Merc (since I'd much rather have an Audi or a VW :p ), but I still think in the S class review in the previous Top Gear episode, JC was right about the S class being an incredible car.

So please, analyze the facts before you say that BMW has still got good cars, because, in my opinion, good BMWs are made in early 1990s.

PS: If I offended you in this post, please accept my apology. =)
 
:welcome: ....and I know this is off-topic, but you will need to resize your sig ;)

Jeremy has both bad and good things to say about both BMWs and Mercs. I've heard him rant over each and I've heard him rave over each. I'm not entirely convinced that he is "an anti-BMW bloke who likes Mercs".
 
Crazzysimon - I've read your post over and over and essentially what you are saying is that BMW have "gone mad" simply because of their styling and their iDrive system. Well...that doesn't mean they've gone "mad".

If a good looking car with a simplistic interior is what you want, check out Mercedes, Audi and maybe Lexus because yes, BMW isn't that good in that aspect.

But if you want the "sheer driving pleasure", BMW is where you want to be...and this coming from a MB fan ;)

I think you need to make YOUR point more clear, thats all.


:welcome: btw
 
that's true. I've never appreciated BMWs until I participated in BMW Canada's xDrive Test Drive Comparison Event.

But I'll agree with the OP. iDrive is just user unfriendly. I couldn't figure out the radio controls during the entire test drive when my friend drove and I was in the passenger seat.
 
BMW's net profit for the second quarter of 2004 rose to 671 million euros, an increase of 18.1% year-on-year...

-

BMW honored for development...
...'05 global investment in state hit $1.26 billion and added 3,000 jobs...

-

BMW GROUP: STRONG AND SUCCESSFUL YEAR 2005...
...continued to perform successfully in 2005 and was able to achieve the targets communicated since the beginning of the year...
...the negative impact of adverse currency effects and high raw material prices was almost completely offset by the year-end...
...despite the difficult conditions facing the worldwide automobile industry...
...With its core model series, the 3, 5 and 7 Series, the BMW brand was the worldwide frontrunner in 2005 in each of the relevant segments...
...The sales volume of the core brand rose by 10.1%...

-

BMW Group Aiming for Record Profit in 2006...
...Best year in company?s history in terms of operating results...Profit before tax to increase to euro 4 billion...
...Car sales volume well above previous year's level in virtually all markets...

-

BMW Group Reports 5 Percent Increase in 2006 May Sales...
...Sales of BMW brand vehicles rose 7 percent in May for a total of 24,688 compared to 23,048 reported in the same month a year ago...

-

BMW Group predicts another record year...
...will hit sales goal a year ahead of schedule...
...BMW Group plans to sell 1.6 million vehicles worldwide by 2010 and will hit its sales target of 1.4 million units next year, a year ahead of schedule, company chairman Helmut Panke said Tuesday...
...This would mean almost a doubling of Group retail volume over the course of ten years since 2000...
...BMW cracked one million in global sales in 2002. Since then the company has launched numerous new models and has passed rival Mercedes as the leader in worldwide sales of luxury vehicles...

-

BMW announces big profit-sharing bonus for workers after strong performance in 2005 for automaker...
...profit-sharing bonuses worth more than a month-and-a-half's salary following a strong performance last year...
...the bonuses will be its highest yet...
...compared with a top level last year of 155.9 percent...
...2005 net profit was unchanged from the previous year at 2.24 billion euros as rising costs and currency effects offset record sales of its cars. However, that performance beat analysts' expectations...


...case closed i think.
 
First of, design and how you like it or don't is very subjective. I love the design of the 5-series. First time I saw it, I had my doubts but it has really grown on me.

And you can read Jeremy eating his own words about the design style here:

http://driving.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,12529-2198657,00.html

Yes, it's only for the Z4, but I think the whole getting use to it thing is generel for most of the BMW lineup (- X3, E90)

After 3-4 years the 5-series still looks fresh and new to me, unlike the Audi A6 for example, which is extremely conservatively designed (boring).

I admire them for darring to be a little different and controversial, which clearly has paid off. Sadly they seem to have changed direction with the E90 to a more conservative design philosophy.

I will aggre that the interior quality has gone down abit.
 
Re: JC's got a point: BMW has gone mad.

in Hong Kong, automotive journalists can't speak evil about rubbish cars since eventually nobody is going to let them do a test-drive
Click to expand...

This used to be the same in the UK. On old Top Gear (pre-Clarkson) if they rubbished a car, then they wouldn't let them test drive any others from thier range. Famously, Noel Edmonds, when he was on TG rubbished, a Fiat, I think it was, and Fiat complained and next week TG had to make an apology. What Noel said, was quite tame compared to how Jeremy is now.

But, at some point TG decied to speak its mind, and, if a car maker reused to give them another car to test, then so what? The car makers realised that alothough they may, for example, rubbish the Nissan Mirca, they might another time say the new Z is fantastic, so along with the, any publicity is good publicity, they now let TG have cars. All, except, Bristol.

The fact of the matter is, BMW's quality is going down
Click to expand...

It is not. You can't say on one hand the new range has more technology than the old ones, then say its quality is going down.

I agree the old M5 (the E34 M5) is much nicer than the new E60 M5, but the new one is still absolutely gorgeous.

The I-Drive, so what? Once you've got it set up how you want it, thats it, its like when you buy a new computer. None of your files are on it, its set up in standard Windows, so you have to change it, it takes a while, but once you've got it set, thats it.

JC was right about the S class being an incredible car
Click to expand...

Yea, but the BMW 750Li and 760Li have everything the S Class has and they are, better looking and faster.
 
Re: JC's got a point: BMW has gone mad.

Top Gear Girl said:
JC was right about the S class being an incredible car
Click to expand...

Yea, but the BMW 750Li and 760Li have everything the S Class has and they are, better looking and faster.
Click to expand...
Well thats personal opinion TGG ;) Some might not agree with that statement :| Certainly not me, thats for sure...
 
Re: JC's got a point: BMW has gone mad.

Top Gear Girl said:
Yea, but the BMW 750Li and 760Li have everything the S Class has and they are, better looking and faster.
Click to expand...

The S-Class is much better looking, more harmonious, with better technology, blah blah blah. That's (somewhat) an opinion thing.

The S500/550 and the 750Li are about tied in acceleration up to the quarter mile, but without a doubt the 750Li is quicker in transient excercises. I'll give you that.

However, I'm going to make a bold claim. I don't think there's any stock full-size sedan that's as quick as the S600 and the S65. They are truly in a league of their own.
 
But if you want the "sheer driving pleasure", BMW is where you want to be...and this coming from a MB fan
Click to expand...

Well I see your point. But since I am 16 and I don't have a driver's license (I just "check out" cars in motor shows on Saturday afternoon :| ), I can't really say that I know how well a BMW drives. However, I do know that BMW has been famous of making what you call "Driver's cars" all the way back from the old 6 series and 2002. And apparently, they are still making relatively good Driver's cars (The new 7 series is much sportier than say, an Audi A8 or a Merc S class), but when you compare the new ones to the old ones, you can see that they've tuned down the sportyness in their recent cars. And you'd expect the overall quality to be improved, but in my opinion, it hasn't.

For example, the new 3 series. It might drive very well indeed but when you compare it to the E36 or even the E46, the amount of sportyness has decreased. I do hope that things would get better in the new M3, but it looks to me that it would still not as good as the old E46 M3 in terms of quality and driving pleasure. That's what worries me.

The I-Drive, so what? Once you've got it set up how you want it, thats it, its like when you buy a new computer. None of your files are on it, its set up in standard Windows, so you have to change it, it takes a while, but once you've got it set, thats it.
Click to expand...

Paint the picture. It's a Sunday afternoon and you're using your new 7 series to drive your parents around. Let's say your dad is sitting in front and he wants to listen to the radio. So you'll tell him that all he had to do was to get into the i-Drive system, press some buttons and go through a few menus in order to get to his channel. It might sound simple to you, but for a person new to the system, it's almost impossible to do anything right with the iDrive. So your day ends with your parents complaining about the complicated-ness of the system. And that would never have happened in the old 7 series.

That's why I think the un-user friendlyness of the iDrive does matter. It may sound conservative, but for a driver, you've got time to get used to it; for a passenger, you will have no time to get an idea of how it works properly.



Sorry if I've gone a bit out there in the first post, but in my opinion, the new BMWs are not as good as the old ones.
 
For example, the new 3 series. It might drive very well indeed but when you compare it to the E36 or even the E46, the amount of sportyness has decreased. I do hope that things would get better in the new M3, but it looks to me that it would still not as good as the old E46 M3 in terms of quality and driving pleasure. That's what worries me.
Click to expand...

In the design or the handling? I haven't tried them, but the reviews I have read say the E90 is an improvement handling-wise (Or in "sportyness" as you call it) over the E46. The first version of the E46 was actually critecised (sp?) for beign to soft.
 
In the design or the handling? I haven't tried them, but the reviews I have read say the E90 is an improvement handling-wise (Or in "sportyness" as you call it) over the E46.
Click to expand...

Both. When I say sportyness, it's the feeling the car gives you when you drives. That includes the power, handling, ride comfort(stiff or comfortable), interior design(the materials of the dashboard, gear knobs, bucket seats and stuff), exterior design (we all have our standards to judge if a car looks sporty or not), and something like that.

If you want an example, go see the Alfa Romeo 156 or 159. In my opinion, it's the peak of pure sportyness combined by these elements (sadly a bit unreliable). The new 3 series is relatively... um, too sensible as a "pure driver's car" when it comes to the design.

Okay I don't have good writing skills, I admit that. Very sorry. -_-
 
3Colin said:
Top Gear Girl said:
Yea, but the BMW 750Li and 760Li have everything the S Class has and they are, better looking and faster.
Click to expand...

The S-Class is much better looking, more harmonious, with better technology, blah blah blah. That's (somewhat) an opinion thing.

The S500/550 and the 750Li are about tied in acceleration up to the quarter mile, but without a doubt the 750Li is quicker in transient excercises. I'll give you that.
Click to expand...
Not quite. The S550 has more power and more torque. The LWB model is only 35kg heavier than the 750Li aswell. 0-100 km/h comes up more than 1/2 second faster.

And yeah...at the top end, the Benz is insane with its V12's.

Crazzysimon said:
But if you want the "sheer driving pleasure", BMW is where you want to be...and this coming from a MB fan
Click to expand...

Well I see your point. But since I am 16 and I don't have a driver's license (I just "check out" cars in motor shows on Saturday afternoon :| ), I can't really say that I know how well a BMW drives.
Click to expand...
We're kinda in the same boat because I'm 16 but I do have my licence and I have driven for example, a BMW 3-Series (last-gen) and a Lexus IS200 and can feel the difference. Although that experience is limited, certainly BMW's are recognised for being "drivers cars" and they have definately got a reputation for that. Thats what my comments are based on.

Out of curiousity - in say a BMW 7'er or 5'er with iDrive, do you need to use iDrive to adjust the passanger temperature or fan speed?
 
Out of curiousity - in say a BMW 7'er or 5'er with iDrive, do you need to use iDrive to adjust the passanger temperature or fan speed?
Click to expand...

02.bmw.7series.int.500.jpg


Fortunately, as seen in the photos, it seems like you can. =)
 
Re: JC's got a point: BMW has gone mad.

Top Gear Girl said:
in Hong Kong, automotive journalists can't speak evil about rubbish cars since eventually nobody is going to let them do a test-drive
Click to expand...

This used to be the same in the UK. On old Top Gear (pre-Clarkson) if they rubbished a car, then they wouldn't let them test drive any others from thier range. Famously, Noel Edmonds, when he was on TG rubbished, a Fiat, I think it was, and Fiat complained and next week TG had to make an apology. What Noel said, was quite tame compared to how Jeremy is now.

But, at some point TG decied to speak its mind, and, if a car maker reused to give them another car to test, then so what? The car makers realised that alothough they may, for example, rubbish the Nissan Mirca, they might another time say the new Z is fantastic, so along with the, any publicity is good publicity, they now let TG have cars. All, except, Bristol.

The fact of the matter is, BMW's quality is going down
Click to expand...

It is not. You can't say on one hand the new range has more technology than the old ones, then say its quality is going down.

I agree the old M5 (the E34 M5) is much nicer than the new E60 M5, but the new one is still absolutely gorgeous.

The I-Drive, so what? Once you've got it set up how you want it, thats it, its like when you buy a new computer. None of your files are on it, its set up in standard Windows, so you have to change it, it takes a while, but once you've got it set, thats it.

JC was right about the S class being an incredible car
Click to expand...

Yea, but the BMW 750Li and 760Li have everything the S Class has and they are, better looking and faster.
Click to expand...
you are assuming that more technology = quality.
 
Well, I'm not so sure it's the *quality* that's going down, but rather the focus as a driver's car that's evaporating.

BMWs used to be tastefully styled and great handling sedans, plain and simple.

Now they are some of the most hideous cars on the market, and concentrate too much on nanny electronic gadgetry. It's easy to see why the purists get upset.

Only it's not just BMW. Porsche builds SUVs, what more do I have to say? They still have some great cars in the range, but even the 911(997) is loaded with nanny electronics and they sell a lot of C4 Cabs with the tiptronic gearbox -- the slowest, heaviest, least involving configuration.

Both companies have lost the minimalist connection with the driving purist.

If I were to buy a 997 today, I could probably do pretty well with it, but then again I'm not doing the driving, the car is.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Top