Jesus Camp.

[fbc]

The fact that you are OK with parents forcing their religion on their children is a problem, in my opinion. I don't think it's fair for a child to be labeled as anything when they are growing up. They believe many of the things to be literal truth and that carries through into adulthood, some cases more extreme than others. You don't label a child a liberal or conservative because they don't have the knowledge needed to make an informed decision. The same can be said about the child's worldview. I think it's a pretty big decision, that should be made in adulthood.

x 2, and a big, fat x2 at that.

 

[Top Geek]

The fact that you are OK with parents forcing their religion on their children is a problem, in my opinion. I don't think it's fair for a child to be labeled as anything when they are growing up.

I have bad news for you then: people get labelled, no matter what age they are, no matter what it's for.

They believe many of the things to be literal truth and that carries through into adulthood, some cases more extreme than others. You don't label a child a liberal or conservative because they don't have the knowledge needed to make an informed decision. The same can be said about the child's worldview. I think it's a pretty big decision, that should be made in adulthood.

So, then a parent shouldn't be allowed to teach their children how to eat. Children have the right to learn that on their own when they're old enough. Guess parents shouldn't teach their children to play with friends and be decent human beings. That's unfair, children need to learn that on their own and maybe end up in jail a few times when they're teenagers; that'll learn 'em. Nor should parents teach their children how to dress themselves. They need to learn that on their own or otherwise go everywhere naked. I'm not saying that all beliefs are right, wrong, or equal; of course parents are going to teach their children their own beliefs.

And I just saw the video. Wow. Where to start? The blind chanting? The hands raised? The fainting? The crying? The sick, disgusting militarization of youth by dressing them in fatigue?

Like I said, all promo/documentary videos are at least somewhat sensationalized and overdone. This one is no exception and you take it face value without knowing any of the direct context.

 

[jeffy777]

The fact that you are OK with parents forcing their religion on their children is a problem, in my opinion.

Of course no one should force anything on their children (and to say these kids are being forced would just be an assumption since we don't know their family life). On the other hand, if would be just as wrong to say that parents should not be allowed to share with their children what they believe. They leave it up to the child to decide whether they want to accept it or not. So there has to be a balance there: no forcing, but it would be crazy to say that parents can't present their beliefs to their own children. We don't live in communist Russia, where the people were miserable without religious freedom, which is just as important as the freedom of speech. (We've discussed this before, so everytime someone brings up something religious, we just say basically the same things all over again, haha)

So, it's about bible camps just like any other, what's the problem? And, sure, the video is a bit over-the-top, but what over-sensationalized promo/documentary isn't?

Yeah, of course there's been Christian summer camps in the US (and several other countries...such as Canada) for decades. Christian summer camps are peaceful places where kids learn that youd don't have to resort to drugs, violence, etc. in order to have a good life (oh, that's sooo terrible) and then they do fun stuff like kayaking, hiking, etc.. They're bascially like boy scout camps with more of a positive infuence. I personally know people that went to Christian summer camps when they were young and because of that they didn't get involved in gangs and crime. So lots of good things come from it.

Now as far as this documentary is concerned, it does sort of appear to be some kind of millitant training zone for extreme right wing evangelicals, but I think the film makers are just blowing this one out of proportion a bit. It does appear to be extreme Christianity, which is obviously not the norm So you can't look at this clip and so, "oh that's how all Christians are!"....far from it...you're never going to see me or any of the Christians I know trying to lead a commando run (or a political run) on those we don't agree with.

There are extremists in all religions (unfortunately), including Christianity, but I don't think this even begins to compare to extreme Islamic actions though. We can only guess how the young suicide bombers are being trained. So yeah, my point is extreme religion is a bad thing, especially when violence is involved, but also to seek political control in the name of religion is just as bad.

As a Christian myself, I do think people should keep their religious views out of politics and everyone else should give religious people the freedom to worship God the way their conscious leads them (granted they don't get too extreme/violent). The whole "seperation of church and state" is not just to keep religious people from influencing politics, but one of it's primary functions is to allow religious liberty.

 

[zenkidori]

As far as I've seen, most parents don't force thier religion on thier kids, they raise them in it. Your parents all raised you with thier ideals, unless they were absentee type of parents. When you're old enough you can make up your own mind. You people talk about this like it's straight up brainwashing and mind control and nobody will ever be able to "break free" of this mental stranglehold. What bullshit.

I didn't watch the video yet, but why are some of you spursised and outraged at christian summer camps? Honestly, what's the big deal? So you don't believe in it then don't send your kids there, simple.

Whatever happened to live and let live? The people who speak out against religion are just as every bit bad as the evangelists running around telling people you'll go to hell. You're all just trying to force your opinion on the greater populace, which is 99% of what is wrong with today's world, in America, in Europe, the whole freaking world. Just let people be.

 

[jeffy777]

Whatever happened to live and let live? The people who speak out against religion are just as every bit bad as the evangelists running around telling people you'll go to hell. You're all just trying to force your opinion on the greater populace, which is 99% of what is wrong with today's world, in America, in Europe, the whole freaking world. Just let people be.

Wow, very well put.

 

[///M]

Whatever happened to live and let live? The people who speak out against religion are just as every bit bad as the evangelists running around telling people you'll go to hell. You're all just trying to force your opinion on the greater populace, which is 99% of what is wrong with today's world, in America, in Europe, the whole freaking world. Just let people be.

Atheists tend not to do that, we leave that for the religious folk. Me personally, I could care less what you believe in, aslong as it doesn't affect my life do what you please. You want to fuck up your kids (IMO), do as you please. If you want to have kids that grow up believing in supirstition first rather than science, for example, you have every right to do that. I will point it out and say how it's fucked up to impose such intense beliefs on kids, that's my right.

I have bad news for you then: people get labelled, no matter what age they are, no matter what it's for.

Since when have you seen an infant being labeled a liberal or conservative, a capitalist or a communist? These are labels that deal with relatively simple things, compared to a person's world view, so to have religion being taught to kids being so acceptable is quite fucked up, IMO.

And most religious parents aren't so kind as to let their kids pick their faith later on or give them a 'lite' version of faith. Most kids get the full, fucked up, vulgar, violent, sexual version, that includes hell, non-believers, demons, and some asshole that looks over everything that seems to have a stick up his/her ass. That's what kids learn because it's easy for them to believe in demons and what not, and guess what, it scares the shit out of them.

As an adult, I have a hard time grasping the concept of the universe and the whole creator deal. A kid shouldn't have to make that decision. This is not the same as teaching kids basic values and eating.

 

[Blind_Io]

Whatever happened to live and let live? The people who speak out against religion are just as every bit bad as the evangelists running around telling people you'll go to hell. You're all just trying to force your opinion on the greater populace, which is 99% of what is wrong with today's world, in America, in Europe, the whole freaking world. Just let people be.

The difference is that, for the most part, Atheists are not interested in prosthetizing. Also we don't preach peace and love out of one side of our face and then say that everyone who does not believe what we beleive and how we believe is wrong. The difference is that one is hypocritical and the other isn't. Altheists don't try to push for the government to legislate their personal dogma.

I know that I don't ask people their religion or what church they go to, however I have been asked this question many times and then chastized for not attending church or being an Atheist. I have never started a converstation by insulting someone's religion, but if they open the door for an idealogical debate I'm not pulling any punches.

 

[Firecat]

Whatever happened to live and let live? The people who speak out against religion are just as every bit bad as the evangelists running around telling people you'll go to hell. You're all just trying to force your opinion on the greater populace, which is 99% of what is wrong with today's world, in America, in Europe, the whole freaking world. Just let people be.

Atheists tend not to do that, we leave that for the religious folk. Me personally, I could care less what you believe in, aslong as it doesn't affect my life do what you please. You want to fuck up your kids (IMO), do as you please. If you want to have kids that grow up believing in supirstition first rather than science, for example, you have every right to do that. I will point it out and say how it's fucked up to impose such intense beliefs on kids, that's my right.

As far as I've seen, most parents don't force thier religion on thier kids, they raise them in it. Your parents all raised you with thier ideals, unless they were absentee type of parents. When you're old enough you can make up your own mind. You people talk about this like it's straight up brainwashing and mind control and nobody will ever be able to "break free" of this mental stranglehold. What bullshit.

Exactly.

 

[Mischief007]

I know that I don't ask people their religion or what church they go to, however I have been asked this question many times and then chastized for not attending church or being an Atheist. I have never started a converstation by insulting someone's religion, but if they open the door for an idealogical debate I'm not pulling any punches.

Well put. I myself have been asked that question lots of times. Religion should never be a part of anything. From the looks of this documentary, I kept asking myself, why. Why impose something like this. True most kids will grow up and realize everything but then there are some that will take this more seriously.

And whoever thinks extremists in a christian religion isn't the same as an extremist in an Islam religion, is wrong. An extremist in any religion is going to do something stupid.

 

[Top Geek]

There are extremists in all religions (unfortunately), including Christianity, but I don't think this even begins to compare to extreme Islamic actions though.

And whoever thinks extremists in a christian religion isn't the same as an extremist in an Islam religion, is wrong. An extremist in any religion is going to do something stupid.

I think we need to be more careful with the word "extreme". An extremist can be someone that is completely against anyone else who believes something that's even slightly different and then go around killing those people (Islamic terrorists, for example). Then there's the extremist that goes around saying "turn or burn" -- and is likely to just put people off and hurt the cause more than help. But, an extremist can also be good in the way s/he presents him or herself. They can be the type of person who just lives it, and doesn't necessarily "force-preach" it. Even if you're not the "turn or burn" type, not many people like to be preached to...or at.

The difference is that, for the most part, Atheists are not interested in prosthetizing. Also we don't preach peace and love out of one side of our face and then say that everyone who does not believe what we beleive and how we believe is wrong.

In most religions and faiths -- if not all of them -- one of the main purposes is to convince people why they should believe what you believe. Without it, the faith is rather pointless. So, I ask you this: how can I possibly tell you, or anyone, that my belief is correct and yours isn't without being perceived as arrogant, pompous or proud?

 

[///M]

Whatever happened to live and let live? The people who speak out against religion are just as every bit bad as the evangelists running around telling people you'll go to hell. You're all just trying to force your opinion on the greater populace, which is 99% of what is wrong with today's world, in America, in Europe, the whole freaking world. Just let people be.

Atheists tend not to do that, we leave that for the religious folk. Me personally, I could care less what you believe in, aslong as it doesn't affect my life do what you please. You want to fuck up your kids (IMO), do as you please. If you want to have kids that grow up believing in supirstition first rather than science, for example, you have every right to do that. I will point it out and say how it's fucked up to impose such intense beliefs on kids, that's my right.

As far as I've seen, most parents don't force thier religion on thier kids, they raise them in it. Your parents all raised you with thier ideals, unless they were absentee type of parents. When you're old enough you can make up your own mind. You people talk about this like it's straight up brainwashing and mind control and nobody will ever be able to "break free" of this mental stranglehold. What bullshit.

Exactly.

There is a HUGE difference between an atheist criticising religious beliefs and a person of faith telling someone, in this case their children, that what they believe in is the only truth, and that everyone else is going to hell. That is basically what religion adds to basic human morality. We all prescribe to the golden rule, it's religion that adds the twist of heaven and hell, believer and nonbeliever to the whole thing. I will criticise a religion just like you criticise conservatives, it's a belief system that is in my opinion flawed and should be discussed. I'm NOT going to tell you to be an atheist because I could care less what you do in your free time. I don't have a reason to convert you, to me you are a human like everyone else.

 

[No Boss]

I'm not worried about peopl "forcing their children" into religons. I kinda care about people preaching about their religions to the point of overkill. I do care about people preaching about their religion AND in the process telling me my religion is wrong and trying to convert me.

But what I care about the most, is that people as extreme as these control so much of our "secular" government.

 

[Firecat]

There is a HUGE difference between an atheist criticising religious beliefs and a person of faith telling someone, in this case their children, that what they believe in is the only truth, and that everyone else is going to hell. That is basically what religion adds to basic human morality. We all prescribe to the golden rule, it's religion that adds the twist of heaven and hell, believer and nonbeliever to the whole thing. I will criticise a religion just like you criticise conservatives, it's a belief system that is in my opinion flawed and should be discussed. I'm NOT going to tell you to be an atheist because I could care less what you do in your free time. I don't have a reason to convert you, to me you are a human like everyone else.

Do atheists teach their kids that religion is a load of malarky, and there is no God? And that's the only truth?

Bottom-line, it should matter because it doesn't affect anybody else.

BTW, I don't criticize conservatism (otherwise I should give up my subscription to the American Conservative magazine). I criticize neoconservatism

 

[Blind_Io]

The difference is that, for the most part, Atheists are not interested in prosthetizing. Also we don't preach peace and love out of one side of our face and then say that everyone who does not believe what we beleive and how we believe is wrong.

In most religions and faiths -- if not all of them -- one of the main purposes is to convince people why they should believe what you believe. Without it, the faith is rather pointless. So, I ask you this: how can I possibly tell you, or anyone, that my belief is correct and yours isn't without being perceived as arrogant, pompous or proud?

And thus the entire premis of religion is flawed. It's a club you join where everyone thinks alike, and naturally since all the members agree they must be right, they even have the word of god that says they are right. So they all show up at the club house once a week an pat each other on the back for being right. If that's all it was I wouldn't care, but with time they realize that if they are right then all the other clubs members must be wrong, and this is where the problem begins. If one person thinks they are right and they have god on their side, it frees them from any moral obligation. Religion is the ultimate deception. Without religion good men would do good and evil men would do evil. Only in religion do good men do evil in the name of god and evil men hide behind a mask of piety. You don't find that in Atheists.

Atheists are also not teaching their kids "there is no god." They don't go to Atheist camp, they don't sing songs about there being no god, they don't go to club meetings with other Atheiests. Only religions do that. The children of Atheiets are free to choose their own path, they can choose to join a religion if they please but they are not indoctrinated since childhood the way the children of Deists are.

This, of course leads us to the inevitable argument of morality that Deists love to use. In this argument morality is equated to religion and spirituality, as though morality can not exist without faith. This just isn't true. If religion prevented immoral behavior then the Catholic church, one of the most dogmatic institutions, would not have the problem of priests diddling alter boys. Likewise, criminals would, per capita, be more likely to be atheist than deist. This isn't so, even accounting for the population discrepancy there are far more Christians per capita in prison than atheists. The numbers don't back the assertion. To shoot a more existential hole in the argument of faith being morality: True morality is doing the right thing because it's the right thing to do, not because you are promised a reward. This is exactly what religion does, it seeks to modify behavior with the Devine Cookie and Firey Stick. How can anyone be moral with the possibility of punishment and reward always in the back of their minds? Does that make doing the right thing moral, or just kissing up to to Sky Beard? Atheiest don't believe in the Devine Cookie and are thus free to experience untainted morality.

 

[Firecat]

Atheists are also not teaching their kids "there is no god." They don't go to Atheist camp, they don't sing songs about there being no god, they don't go to club meetings with other Atheiests. Only religions do that. The children of Atheiets are free to choose their own path, they can choose to join a religion if they please but they are not indoctrinated since childhood

So if the child of an atheist comes home from school one day, and wants to be a christian because he sees that all his friends are, the parents will be open to this and take their child to church so he can explore more?

 

[No Boss]

Atheists are also not teaching their kids "there is no god." They don't go to Atheist camp, they don't sing songs about there being no god, they don't go to club meetings with other Atheiests. Only religions do that. The children of Atheiets are free to choose their own path, they can choose to join a religion if they please but they are not indoctrinated since childhood

So if the child of an atheist comes home from school one day, and wants to be a christian because he sees that all his friends are, the parents will be open to this and take their child to church so he can explore more?

I would. I wish that's what my parents did.

 

[BlaRo]

Atheists are also not teaching their kids "there is no god." They don't go to Atheist camp, they don't sing songs about there being no god, they don't go to club meetings with other Atheiests. Only religions do that. The children of Atheiets are free to choose their own path, they can choose to join a religion if they please but they are not indoctrinated since childhood

So if the child of an atheist comes home from school one day, and wants to be a christian because he sees that all his friends are, the parents will be open to this and take their child to church so he can explore more?

I don't see why they wouldn't, in the same way that if a Christian kid comes home and decides to stop believing in God, his parents will accept that. It works both ways. The difference is, the latter is less likely to happen than the former.

 

[jeffy777]

There is a HUGE difference between an atheist criticising religious beliefs and a person of faith telling someone, in this case their children, that what they believe in is the only truth, and that everyone else is going to hell. That is basically what religion adds to basic human morality. We all prescribe to the golden rule, it's religion that adds the twist of heaven and hell, believer and nonbeliever to the whole thing. I will criticise a religion just like you criticise conservatives, it's a belief system that is in my opinion flawed and should be discussed. I'm NOT going to tell you to be an atheist because I could care less what you do in your free time. I don't have a reason to convert you, to me you are a human like everyone else.

Do atheists teach their kids that religion is a load of malarky, and there is no God? And that's the only truth?

Exactly. Most atheists indoctrinate their children just as much as religious people do.

And there are tons of websites (and even seminars) that attempt to "convert" people from Christianity to atheism (or to atleast cause them to doubt their beliefs, usually by attempting to make Christians look like idiots in a very rude way, which is a terrible approach) while at the same time, warning everyone else about the dangers of religion. So there are athiests that are just as outgoing and offensive as a Christian evangelist.

Atheists are also not teaching their kids "there is no god." They don't go to Atheist camp, they don't sing songs about there being no god, they don't go to club meetings with other Atheiests. Only religions do that. The children of Atheiets are free to choose their own path, they can choose to join a religion if they please but they are not indoctrinated since childhood

So if the child of an atheist comes home from school one day, and wants to be a christian because he sees that all his friends are, the parents will be open to this and take their child to church so he can explore more?

I don't see why they wouldn't, in the same way that if a Christian kid comes home and decides to stop believing in God, his parents will accept that. It works both ways. The difference is, the latter is less likely to happen than the former.

I disagree about the latter being less likely. Most parents that are Christians (the ones I know anyway) allow their children to think for themselves. Then if their children stops going to church or whatever, they simply try to be a good example and pray for them. In fact, I don't know any Christian parent that "forces" their child to go to church or share their beliefs.

Atheists are also not teaching their kids "there is no god.".

That's a sweeping statement. You can't speak for all the atheists like that, nor can I speak for every Christian. I can only speak from my experience and people I know, and I do know one girl (one of my very close friends actually) whose mother is an Atheist. She raised her child to loathe religion and to stay away from it. Just recently, her daughter became a Christian at the age of 20, and guess what? Now her mother won't even speak to her soley because of her religion. Don't tell me that doesn't suck.....

 

[Blind_Io]

Atheists are also not teaching their kids "there is no god." They don't go to Atheist camp, they don't sing songs about there being no god, they don't go to club meetings with other Atheiests. Only religions do that. The children of Atheiets are free to choose their own path, they can choose to join a religion if they please but they are not indoctrinated since childhood

So if the child of an atheist comes home from school one day, and wants to be a christian because he sees that all his friends are, the parents will be open to this and take their child to church so he can explore more?

That has been my experience with Atheist parents. I was raised Methodist before I started to critically analyze religion, my parents were just fine with me attending services for other religions. My best friend two door away is a Atheist and his parents were also open to him exploring religion.

Atheists tend to be more scientific in thought, arguments of faith don't do much for us unless you have some evidence to back it up. It's easy to shoot holes in religion. I personally do it in the hopes that some day someone will be able to prove something to me. I am not closed minded, but I do demand evidence to support opinions, as I'm sure many of you have noticed. Simply saying "The Sky Beard said so" doesn't cut it with me, I want something concrete.

If I were a parent I would not have any problem with allowing my child to attend services, but I would want to know what is being discussed. Some churches get very adversarial and I would not want my child being told "Mommy and Daddy are going to hell because they reject the word of god." If the kid was old enough to handle that kind of message (teen age at the youngest) then I would have to trust my child to start making choices for him/her self. It would probably be the topic of some interesting family conversations but I believe in grooming a child to be independent and that means allowing him to experience what faces him in the real world. Sheltering a child from the world only makes them unprepared for living in it.

The hostile nature of some churches towards Atheists and the indoctrination of children, Exhibit A:

What would a child think about an Athiest after seeing this flyer? Not only does it indicate that I am an ogre ready to tempt them to evil but it also says that I am unhappy and that children should not talk to me. It also says alot about the community, apparently this one is more interested in the "kill the unbeliever" bits of the bible than the "love thy neighbor as thyself" bits.

 

[BlaRo]

I disagree about the latter being less likely. Most parents that are Christians (the ones I know anyway) allow their children to think for themselves. Then if their children stops going to church or whatever, they simply try to be a good example and pray for them. In fact, I don't know any Christian parent that "forces" their child to go to church or share their beliefs.

You might not have seen that happen, but I've heard about it in addition to having a friend whose parents dragged him to church for years in an attempt at curbing his atheism before they finally gave up. I'm glad that the people you know are smarter than that and are more willing to have the kids think for themselves. But this destructive behavior happens in any faith (or lack of as in atheism).