Kill, reformat or do nothing?

Kill, reformat or do nothing?

  • I would kill off the show after this season.

    Votes: 17 8.1%
  • I would reformat the show after this season.

    Votes: 55 26.2%
  • I would leave it as it is.

    Votes: 138 65.7%

  • Total voters
    210
Now all we get is cocking around in ridiculous, mildly amusing challenges, some more cocking about in the news and 8-9 minutes of car testing in a one hour show.

You have to remember, many, maybe most, of the current audience are not car freaks, they tune in to be entertained. I include myself in that - I'm many kinds of a freak, but cars aren't it. While I like cars, and occasionally enjoy a TG review, I'm really not that fussed about them that I'd watch a pure motoring programme on TV (there's always Fifth Gear for that, anyway, I guess, but then again I've only ever seen a few minutes of the occasional episode). Now if they'd chuck a bike review in sometimes, or "reviews" of cars you can no longer buy like some of the classic Jaaaags... Sorry, but you can only say "wowthisisthemostawesomecarlookicanspinitroundandroundandround" so many times before, like the words, all the reviews just blend in together.
 
You have to remember, many, maybe most, of the current audience are not car freaks, they tune in to be entertained.
No one is arguing with that - the show has been an "Entertainment show with cars" for longer than just the last episode. It started out mainly for the 'car freaks' and then became the compromise of entertainment and cars till about the end of the last season. Everybody's happy. The first 5 shows of this season however, have for the most part ignored the petrolhead following, and completely gone after pure entertainment. The balance is quite broken.

Why? Ratings and money probably, but I'd go as far as to say that without their smaller, more dedicated following in the earlier years, those of you viewing for laughs now rather than cars wouldn't even have a show. I hope this weeks episode (which looks good on paper) makes me a liar, and then we can all move on :rolleyes:.
 
One important fact that everyone's missed a bit is that the car reviews themselves have gone downhill. Up until Series 13, they'd successfully expanded the visual look and audio accompaniment of the reviews, and it spiced them up pretty well. Then, in 14 and 15, they went totally overboard (viz. the Lexus LFA and Bentley Conti SS reviews, and to a lesser extent the 458 review). They'd crossed the line into All Style, No Substance, and they seem to have realized that. The reviews, such as they've been, in this series have been the pendulum swinging all the way to the other side, and they ended up losing the thread in the process. If the Skoda Yeti review had been done by James, we probably would have had something like a dual review with the Dacia Duster with a theme of "Rangies On A Budget", and it would have been great. They just have to avoid two things: Jezza In A Fezza (or the latest hot Merc) and Richard reviewing Porsches. We all know that if they get within twenty feet of those cars, they get raging boners.

I have a feeling that Series 17 reviews will be an adjustment back toward the center. They've got to re-find that balance between actual automotive journalism and post-production fluff, and I think they can do it.

The other stuff is nothing that a little new blood in the production office can't fix. I'm not talking about replacing Wilman and Porter, but bring in some new creative types that can brainstorm some fresh ideas. James' race with the Atom against the Beemer Bike shows that they can repeat some ideas as long as there's sufficient self-reference. TGUS showed that some of the older ideas had legs if put in a fresh context. They've got to do something to break out of the ossification they're in right now.
 
you can only say "wowthisisthemostawesomecarlookicanspinitroundandroundandround" so many times before, like the words, all the reviews just blend in together.
Yes, that passes for a review on Top Gear now and as a result most of them do all seem to run together. Jeremy, on the test track, in an exotic car, ruining the differential while shouting.

It wasn't always like that tho... it used to be good. James used to review cars.



Now if they'd chuck a bike review in sometimes
That's some sort of sick joke, right?.:blink:
 
In their defence, it's not as if there's massive car news these days. I mean, yet another Zonda, oh great an M3, wow new Porsche that's exactly like the old one. Oh goodies, new Audi. The time of Zonda's, Veyrons and other interesting stuff being new and exciting is kinda gone. The ending of 13x07 could be more true than we feared.
 
Really need to evolve the show into a top gear / man lab hybrid. Still include articles on cars where appropriate but let the presenters discuss whatever they want.

Richard Hammond on restoring american muscle cars...

James and Jeremy on firearms of WW2...
 
Of those many reasons, the lack of car tests/reviews is the one that irks me.

The lack of tests/reviews? The obstreperous trio reveal their opinions of various vehicles and automobilia every episode. We find out if a car has enough torques, if the flappy-paddle gearbox really does change faster than a blink, or just what the cargo capacity is in more visual cheese terms. Each review is full of what Clarkson, Hammond and May want us to know about that particular vehicle - often bits camouflaged by cold-hard numbers in austere automotive magazines.

Although I'm guessing by 'review' you mean something something burdened with less-layperson-useful information such as intricate adenoid-inducing technical specifications and numerical representations with radix points. Perhaps utilising less ambiguous terms than "top gear" in favour of more accurate descriptors like 'fifth gear'.

Or, in Clarkson's words (May 2007, in response to Series 9):
...these people want to know why there aren't two or three proper car tests a week. And not car tests where I drive around shouting "poweeeeer", but proper ones done by James where every nut, bolt and torque is taken out and examined.

What they want, secretly, is Chris Goffey back. And I'd love to oblige. I'd love to spend the day hooning around in a 599 or a lightweight Gallardo...

... But galloping like a huge, shit-stained horse over the horizon comes the problem: is that what the vast majority of the viewers want? Not you. Not your mates in cyberland.

But the vast swathe of people who just want to flop down on a Sunday night and watch entertaining telly. I suspect the answer is a Thatcheresque "No. No. No."
That sounds like a clear indication they weren't looking to revert back to traditional car reviews.

As the fans (mainly petrolheads) who gave the show its' audience 10 seasons ago, you have the right to be slightly annoyed when the shows' new direction leaves it's original fan base out to dry.

Of course you have the right to be disappointed, but not to a sense of entitlement that the show 'owes' you anything as phrases like "gave the show its audience 10 seasons ago" and "new direction leaves its original fan base out to dry" suggest.

Revamped Top Gear outgrew the 'original fan base'. Sure, they said 4 million viewers was enough, and an additional 4 million weren't worth selling-out for...

Wilman, October 2007:
So the quandary is: which way now - cars and four million viewers, or cocking about and eight million viewers? It's a fair question, given we're a motoring show on the one hand, and egotistical TV people who like a nice set of ratings on the other - and one we knew we'd have to address come this series.

We have, and I think we're all agreed that chasing the eight million is bollocks; a false dawn, a night with a hooker when you're drunk. The thing is, the Top Gear audience is made up of several million who like cars, and then several million more bonus viewers; the ones who say "I'm not interested in cars but I like Top Gear...".
...
But if we decided to go that way with TG we'd go mad. The bonus viewers want the next film that tops the space shuttle, or the next challenge that out-loonies the limos, and you just can't keep going like that. We'd burn out in two series and look like tits.
But that was the same time they said they'd never mention Hammond's crash again. Clarkson made it quite clear they had made a conscious decision to be an entertainment show, rather than motoring program.

Clarkson, May 2007:
Do we go back to the old days, driving round corners in saloon cars, to the accompaniment of Bad Company and 'His Mobiness'? Or do we keep on annoying the internet dweebs from Norway and North Carolina by continuing to cock about?
...
I suspect the majority of the audience would rather we loaded both cars into a large plane, flew over the Arizona desert and then pushed them out to see which hit the ground first.
...
Anyway, although we won't chase figures, we still have to give the audience something you want and like.

Which means we should make Top Gear an entertainment show featuring cars, rather than a car show, that isn't as boring as your wife and kids feared. Or have I got that all wrong?
Seven series later, the entertainment show featuring cars - rather than a car show - seems to be working quite well for them.

the show has been an "Entertainment show with cars" for longer than just the last episode. It started out mainly for the 'car freaks' and then became the compromise of entertainment and cars till about the end of the last season. Everybody's happy. The first 5 shows of this season however, have for the most part ignored the petrolhead following, and completely gone after pure entertainment. The balance is quite broken.

The balance is broken? Doesn't seem like the audience minds. The current viewing figures haven't dipped for the past couple of years - still significantly higher than before they seriously started cocking about.

No one here is boycotting the show. Just venting frustration as serves the purpose of the Internet.

Venting? It's just unnecessarily repetative criticism/bitching (that appeals to a limited audience) about other people's hard work - work that still appeals to a huge audience.

You (not you personally rideclutch) don't need to boycott it... nor do you need to fill each post-episode discussion with lists of non-episode specific things you think is wrong with Top Gear and lists of things in earlier episodes you though were much better.

Even Clarkson tempers his reviews with both positive and negative remarks. Here we have 'axe the show or reformat it to my personal tastes'.

Take the excellent "James drives to the studio"-videos for example. When you have to wonder why the show can't be more like the outtake-/promo-clips on the TG-website, something's definetly not right

You really think James' drives to the studio would appeal to a mainstream audience?

Weight is not just about improving acceleration and improving economy. The effects of going around a corner compounds the problem of excess weight.

If you look at things like racing motorcycles, they will move the master cylinder on the handlebars inboard by a few inches, because that reduces its polar inertia when the handlebars are turning.
Inherently interesting to 'enthusiasts', but surely four million and two pairs of eyes (including Hammond's and Clarkson's) just glazed over.

Really need to evolve the show into a top gear / man lab hybrid. Still include articles on cars where appropriate but let the presenters discuss whatever they want.

Richard Hammond on restoring american muscle cars... James and Jeremy on firearms of WW2...

Gun talk and muscle car restoration doesn't really sound like evolution for Top Gear. They already regularly touch the subjects (in a light-entertainment way). It would make more sense to create a separate show.
 
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I really hate to be one of those people and baw about it, but I have noticed for multiple weeks in a row I have actually forgotten to watch top gear. :|
This is kind of a major wow when you spend all day posting on a freaking top gear fansite.
I vote reformat, they should at least sit down and take a look at what is going on to make it deteriorate. My guess is the constantly brought up scripting issue. There is too much scripting in your "unscripted" show when you are watching and say "OH COME ON" in response to something that is so blatantly scripted it's humiliating (like, idk, a cheap car challenge where every one shows up with the exact same BMW? It would not be as bad if they didn't expect us to believe that they showed up there and were surprised but that which is just insulting to the viewer's intelligence.)
 
The problem I see with more recent shows is that the stupidity is built in from the beginning. In the better shows, they start out doing something sensible, and add a veneer of cocking about.

A classic good (IMO) show was the 24 hour race - they put reasonable effort into doing it well, but there was scope for cocking about on the way. The same with all the other races. A classic bad show was the motor homes - they were designed to be crap from the beginning, so everything else was over-shadowed by the built in crappiness.

The good shows showed us something amazing or inspiring: The millau bridge, 24 hour race, speed climbers versus an Audi, Sabine Schmitz, the North Pole, building a Caterham, Vietnam, Japan, Folk Races in Finland, a steam train, rockets, driving across Bolivia, a classic car rally, etc. All good stuff, with a entertaining veneer of cocking about.

The snow plow was an example of built in stupidity. Combine harvesters must be out numbered by tractors at least 10 * over, and tractors would be much better as snow plows, and much cheaper. Trucks maybe even better again. Using a combine was a stupid idea from the start. You can't polish a turd, and you can't make a good show from a stupid idea.

Either way, TG is still the best show on TV :)

So, sensible base story with cocking about = good, built in stupidity = bad. Feel free to disagree.
 
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I agree with Katwalk.

Plus, the presenters "chemistry", which was always a huge draw for the show, is really cheapened by the stupid scriptedness.
Don't kill the golden goose.

I don't like whining, but I also noticed I haven't re-watched the last 2 series very much.

EDIT: I forgot to add, I sometimes find myself enjoying the "Behind the Scenes" videos much more than the actual programme. They're candid, real and entertaining!
 
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Firstly, it seems like you've taken my issue with the last 5 episodes and applied it to the last 5 seasons. Everything I opined was in regards to Season 16. I don't understand why you're showing me Clarkson/Wilman quotes from 4 years ago when everything I've said relates to only to the last 5 episodes. More to the point, it's just my opinion, which isn't going to be changed by what Clarkson thinks anyway :dunno:.

The lack of tests/reviews? The obstreperous trio reveal their opinions of various vehicles and automobilia every episode. We find out if a car has enough torques, if the flappy-paddle gearbox really does change faster than a blink, or just what the cargo capacity is in more visual cheese terms. Each review is full of what Clarkson, Hammond and May want us to know about that particular vehicle - often bits camouflaged by cold-hard numbers in austere automotive magazines.
You've used examples from Season 10. Your "cheese" terms from 10x06 is one of my favourite episodes. Once again, no one is complaining about those episodes. Last season this thread would have been marked "troll" and locked. After the first 5 of 16, you have 3 pages of Forum regulars agreeing. Sounds like it's worth discussing then.

Ravenlord said:
Although I'm guessing by 'review' you mean something something burdened with less-layperson-useful information such as intricate adenoid-inducing technical specifications and numerical representations with radix points. Perhaps utilising less ambiguous terms than "top gear" in favour of more accurate descriptors like 'fifth gear'.
Laypersons information? What good is laypersons information for a Ferrari 599 GTO, a Pagani Zonda R, Rolls Royce Ghost, Mercedes AMG and 3 Hatchbacks you can't buy? I would rather some normal cars as well :|.


Ravenlord said:
Of course you have the right to be disappointed, but not to a sense of entitlement that the show 'owes' you anything as phrases like "gave the show its audience 10 seasons ago" and "new direction leaves its original fan base out to dry" suggest.
You are absolutely right, I have no entitlement. What I was suggesting however is that the formula they used for the first 15 seasons had been changed unnecessarily to the loss of the old audience.

Ravenlord said:
The balance is broken? Doesn't seem like the audience minds. The current viewing figures haven't dipped for the past couple of years - still significantly higher than before they seriously started cocking about.
If the audience doesn't mind, why are you posting in a thread discussing what the show should do in the near future? From Season 9 (where your quotes were from) to 15 most didn't have an issue with the balance of entertainment and cars. Now there's discussion. I'll stand by my statement.

Ravenlord said:
Venting? It's just unnecessarily repetative criticism/bitching (that appeals to a limited audience) about other people's hard work - work that still appeals to a huge audience.
This is the first and only time I've spoken out against Top Gear, so I can only speak for myself. Since this is the appropriate place for something I feel warrants discussion, I also can't see why it's "unnecessary".

I don't understand why you think the old audience had been completely left behind by revamped Top Gear, when most of us are still watching and until a few weeks ago, quite joyfully. I just want a little balance back is all :dunno:.
 
Venting? It's just unnecessarily repetative criticism/bitching (that appeals to a limited audience) about other people's hard work - work that still appeals to a huge audience.

Compared to other boards I've been on, I'd hardly describe the tone in this thread as "bitching". Just some die-hard TG-fans expressing their regrets (or lack thereof) with the direction the show has taken over the past few seasons. Mind you: I'm one of those saying that the current series is a step in the right direction. Compared to the (IMO) truly horrible season 14, this is a great improvement.

You really think James' drives to the studio would appeal to a mainstream audience?

Nope, and it's not what I meant, either. I was just using these videos as an example of how even a totally unbroadcastable piece like this had me glued to the PC, simply because it had JM in it talking about the thing he loves (old cars) while being *himself*. No explosions, no fancy camerawork, no scripted nonsense, no silly "Captain Slow"-acting. If they could inject some of this *spirit* back into the actual show, it'd be a huge improvement. I mean: That piece was a lot more interesting to 911-lovers than the one they had billed as an "exploration of the 911" on the show (RH's silly Beetle-stunt).

The problem I see with more recent shows is that the stupidity is built in from the beginning. In the better shows, they start out doing something sensible, and add a veneer of cocking about.

An excellent point and spot on!
 
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I love the show, but I would like to see these changes:

- less scripted bantering between the three presenters.
- more thoughtful car reviews (sometimes they contradict they're past statements about certain cars)
- invite guests (SIARPCs) who are legitimately entertaining. Not just eye candy.
 
I just had a brainwave.

If they follow one simple rule they can fix the show and make it good again.

If, at the planning stages someone says "that would be really funny" then bin it. Because it won't be. If they say "that would be awesome" then keep it.

Let the funny happen on its own, because in the past when they have done it's much funnier than their scripted bullshit, and instead aim to make great television.
 
I'd rather they had six really high quality shows a year, instead of 15 mediocre epsiodes.

But they really need to go back to basics imo. There's too many budget stretching 30 minute films which just do my nut in, I want clarkson to go to his strengths and that's ripping apart some absolute shitbox (I can think of a few cars that really deserve a kicking), doing something really innovative (The fiesta review is one of the finest moments of top gear imo). Clarkson's phoning it in a bit atm, especially his power reviews, which haven't featured anything breathtaking for several series.

I'm fed up of power reviews which consist of some twatting around on the track, slow motion shots, random shots of the car in a brightly lit warehouse with water or something, and some boring generic drag race. The last bunch of them have been completely unremarkable, I can't even remember which cars featured. I want an amazing car to blow me away on screen.
 
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I just had a brainwave.

If they follow one simple rule they can fix the show and make it good again.

If, at the planning stages someone says "that would be really funny" then bin it. Because it won't be. If they say "that would be awesome" then keep it.

Let the funny happen on its own, because in the past when they have done it's much funnier than their scripted bullshit, and instead aim to make great television.

This. Accidental funny is always best.
 
I just had a brainwave.

If they follow one simple rule they can fix the show and make it good again.

If, at the planning stages someone says "that would be really funny" then bin it. Because it won't be. If they say "that would be awesome" then keep it.

Let the funny happen on its own, because in the past when they have done it's much funnier than their scripted bullshit, and instead aim to make great television.

So a version of the "Don't be a prat" law for TG. :) (The "Don't be a prat" law being the only law that would be in effect if any of the TG3 came to power, as it -- pretty much -- takes care of everything.)

And reading Blythy's post, I have a very radical suggestion of my own. Ban Jeremy from track tests for at least one series. Confine him to the road. IMO, some of his best reviews for TG have been ones done on the road, not on the track.
 
Jeremy has some great commentaries when he drives on the track, but I agree that his near-constant participation is becoming old hat.
His narration of the SIARPC has kinda dulled a bit, as well.
 
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