Le Mans 24h 2016

BerserkerCatSplat

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Are you aware of the politics behind it? I don't think so, otherwise you'd probably understand why it caused the by you so-called "butthurt".
Yes, educate me on the WEC politics I'm so clearly unaware of. :lol: Let's not forget the last-minute BOP adjustments nerfed Ford, not the other way around. You're always going to get complaints with a performance-balanced series, that's why ACO has all the telemetry data.
 

jack_christie

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Yes, educate me on the WEC politics I'm so clearly unaware of. :lol: Let's not forget the last-minute BOP adjustments nerfed Ford, not the other way around. You're always going to get complaints with a performance-balanced series, that's why ACO has all the telemetry data.
Whatever BoP system the ACO have failed, should never be a four second gap in a single class that's what BoP is supposed to prevent. Corvette, Aston and Porsche were raging.

The GT AM class uses year old cars. Next year with the farcical situation that Ford won't sell customer cars, Corvette not selling many, everyone will want to buy a Ferrari.
 

TC

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Yes, educate me on the WEC politics I'm so clearly unaware of. :lol: Let's not forget the last-minute BOP adjustments nerfed Ford, not the other way around. You're always going to get complaints with a performance-balanced series, that's why ACO has all the telemetry data.
It was pretty shady. This is the story, as far as I could keep up with it. The Ford GT's got a big BoP boost going to LeMans and the Corvettes got a BoP penalty, based on their performance in IMSA/WEC. Even so, during the test days it was the Corvettes and Porsches putting in the fastest times. So fast that Corvette received another BoP penalty and Ford received another boost. Then qualifying happened. Ford and Ferrari locked out the top 7 spots. So they made another BoP adjustment, giving a very small penalty to the Fords and a very small boost to the Corvettes and Astons. Porsche got nothing, except a few extra liters of fuel capacity. Then the race happened. It was Ford vs. Ferrari, everyone else was no where to be seen.

The entire purpose of BoP is to prevent that sort of thing from happening. Not only did they fail, but it appears as though they manipulated the situation. The fastest cars in testing ended up among the slowest in qualifying and the race itself, while the fastest cars ended up being the Ford's and Ferrari's on the 50th anniversary of their legendary LeMans rivalry. It all seemed so... convenient.
 

BerserkerCatSplat

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It was pretty shady. This is the story, as far as I could keep up with it. The Ford GT's got a big BoP boost going to LeMans and the Corvettes got a BoP penalty, based on their performance in IMSA/WEC. Even so, during the test days it was the Corvettes and Porsches putting in the fastest times. So fast that Corvette received another BoP penalty and Ford received another boost. Then qualifying happened. Ford and Ferrari locked out the top 7 spots. So they made another BoP adjustment, giving a very small penalty to the Fords and a very small boost to the Corvettes and Astons. Porsche got nothing, except a few extra liters of fuel capacity. Then the race happened. It was Ford vs. Ferrari, everyone else was no where to be seen.

The entire purpose of BoP is to prevent that sort of thing from happening. Not only did they fail, but it appears as though they manipulated the situation. The fastest cars in testing ended up among the slowest in qualifying and the race itself, while the fastest cars ended up being the Ford's and Ferrari's on the 50th anniversary of their legendary LeMans rivalry. It all seemed so... convenient.

It's only shady if you ascribe some nefarious motive to the ACO's decisions and completely believe they were happy and willing to undermine their own series because...reasons. The fact is that the ACO has access to every single team's telemetry data. If there was bigtime sandbagging going on, the ACO could (and would) have seen it. Both Ford and Ferrari - coincidentally, the newest cars on the grid and the ones undergoing the most development - both had noticeable improvements over testing, so they both got BOP nerfs after qualifying. Both Ford and Ferrari had weight added and Ford got a boost cut, not really a negligible penalty in BOP terms.

So really, for the BOP conspiracy to be true, you have to believe that the ACO wanted to alter the race (although it's tough to understand why - it's not like they get a cut of the purse if Ford or Ferrari win, nor does a Ford race win really result in greater ticket sales in a European series) or that they are so blindingly incompetent that they don't know how to analyze telemetry data. Neither seems particularly probable.

What does seem far more probable is that you had two manufacturers (Ford and Ferrari) that have the newest and greatest purpose-built racecars, with Ferrari dominating the earlier WEC races while Ford charged up the WEC and IMSA ranks to meet them. Both the boosted cars suddenly showing very similar performance improvements in quali seems to indicate favourable conditions rather than sandbagging, and if you were going to sandbag... why would you suddenly open it up in qualifying of a 24h race? If you're 4s/lap quicker than everybody else, who cares where you start on the grid? You'd wait until the actual race and manage your pace to avoid ACO attention, not blow your wad in qualifying. BOP is certainly fallible (and of generally questionable merit), but this whole ACO/Ford conspiracy stuff is bunk. If it was sandbagging, Ford and Ferrari did the poorest sandbagging job in history.
 
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bone

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besides all the politics, it's just that's it a GT win, and the BoP took away any achievement in that
if you come up with a crap car, the ACO will slow all the others so you can keep up

it's like winning the special olympics...you're still a retard
 
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TC

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So really, for the BOP conspiracy to be true, you have to believe that the ACO wanted to alter the race (although it's tough to understand why - it's not like they get a cut of the purse if Ford or Ferrari win, nor does a Ford race win really result in greater ticket sales in a European series) or that they are so blindingly incompetent that they don't know how to analyze telemetry data. Neither seems particularly probable.
That's one way to look at it, but the fact is, they want to put on a good show. They alter the races through BoP adjustments. This stuff survives on ad revenue, does it not? And the fact is, the Corvette team was given an overall performance penalty since the small boost they got after quali didn't come close to reversing their earlier BoP penalties. Same with Ford, they got a nerf, but it was small compared to the overall boost. I'm not sure about the other teams and how their BoP adjustments evened out. But the fact is, it was still slanted in Ford's favor.

If they were going to let anyone dominate, then why bother with BoP at all? Let them run what they brung.



As far as sandbagging goes, Ford pretty much admitted to it. But they said they didn't go for any fast laps in testing, as they were busy doing other things. Full fuel load runs, etc. But you'd think they would have tested their fast pace at least once in those two days, as that is kinda sorta important in racing.

But it's mostly a fail on the part of the ACO. They obviously want to put on a good show. And all the hype of the Ford GT's coming back to LeMans and their epic rivalry with Ferrari. It's not unthinkable to assume they did a little too good a job making sure the Fords and Ferraris were competitive and that no one else ended up with an unfair advantage.
 
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Mitchi

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I so wanted Risi to win, just to give them the middle finger to Ford.

Hurr Durr we won Le Mans 1-2-3 against Ferrari 50 years after!

Well, yeah, in the GT category;, would rather see them fighting for the big win, doubt they'll have the power for that though, as big as they are in Motorsports. The only thing they did was buy into the ACO, and the ACO loves stories like this. It was a no brainer for both of them and a loose-situation for everyone else involved.

But Porsche will come back next year... with a, let's say, different type of 911. ;)
 

marcos_eirik

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But Porsche will come back next year... with a, let's say, different type of 911. ;)
How? I have a suspicion it won't be that different in the end. They'll probably just turbocharge the RSR.

Porsche's victory video btw:
 

Mitchi

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Because I've been shown pictures of it, it's much, much faster than the current car. Well, until BoP comes. :lol:
 

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How? I have a suspicion it won't be that different in the end. They'll probably just turbocharge the RSR.
Rumour mill is in full flow about Porsche having been granted a waiver to "flip" the whole engine/transmission ensemble from the street 911. Radio Le Mans have talked extensively about it on air without actually mentioning it. :lol:
 

BerserkerCatSplat

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That's one way to look at it, but the fact is, they want to put on a good show. They alter the races through BoP adjustments. This stuff survives on ad revenue, does it not? And the fact is, the Corvette team was given an overall performance penalty since the small boost they got after quali didn't come close to reversing their earlier BoP penalties. Same with Ford, they got a nerf, but it was small compared to the overall boost. I'm not sure about the other teams and how their BoP adjustments evened out. But the fact is, it was still slanted in Ford's favor.

If they were going to let anyone dominate, then why bother with BoP at all? Let them run what they brung.
Again, does a Ford win in a primarily European series increase ad revenue in a significant manner? There's no doubt ACO was scrambling to adjust the Corvette's BOP (not hard to imagine, considering this was the only WEC event that Corvette Racing has entered this year, they've been sticking to IMSA as usual). You could probably argue that their inability to manage Corvette's BOP against the rest of the WEC field is what led to CR's LeMans victory last year, but that's really neither here nor there. Considering how close the fight was between Ford/Ferrari, it's tough to say that anything was slanted in Ford's favour specifically.


As far as sandbagging goes, Ford pretty much admitted to it. But they said they didn't go for any fast laps in testing, as they were busy doing other things. Full fuel load runs, etc. But you'd think they would have tested their fast pace at least once in those two days, as that is kinda sorta important in racing.
Ford already had a nice long fast-pace test session for their LeMans setup - Spa. Ganessi's team ran their complete LeMans setup at Spa to make sure they'd ironed out any bugs because LeMans was the most important race for them. Hence why they only needed to do specific-circumstance testing at LeMans itself. Claiming 2nd at Spa was just a bonus.


But it's mostly a fail on the part of the ACO. They obviously want to put on a good show. And all the hype of the Ford GT's coming back to LeMans and their epic rivalry with Ferrari. It's not unthinkable to assume they did a little too good a job making sure the Fords and Ferraris were competitive and that no one else ended up with an unfair advantage.
The hype was there before (and regardless of) any BOP adjustments. Hype and excitement (and therefore attention) for the race in unaffected by who wins it. It's not like Ford winning means there gets to be a do-over race next year they can hype up - the 50yr rematch was the big thing. That happened as soon as Ford and Ferrari lined up on the grid, and good on ACO for stirring up excitement in the GT class.
 

TC

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Again, does a Ford win in a primarily European series increase ad revenue in a significant manner?
Ford is pretty big in Europe, so I'm not sure why that matters. But no, it doesn't matter who wins, as long as it's exciting. An exciting race this year can improve attendance and viewership next year. Similarly, a boring race could have a negative impact in the future. Hence the existence of BoP.

You could probably argue that their inability to manage Corvette's BOP against the rest of the WEC field is what led to CR's LeMans victory last year, but that's really neither here nor there.
Except Corvette didn't do very well last year really, iirc. They lost a car in quali and their last remaining car qualified 6th out of 8 starters in their class. That's not what I would call great pace. And from what I remember of the race itself, it came down to a war of attrition. The strongest competitors in class all seemed to have accidents or mechanical failures. I was happy to see the lone Vette win, but I remember feeling that a lot of luck was involved. They did have a very reliable and accident free race, which they deserved credit for.

Ford already had a nice long fast-pace test session for their LeMans setup - Spa. Ganessi's team ran their complete LeMans setup at Spa to make sure they'd ironed out any bugs because LeMans was the most important race for them. Hence why they only needed to do specific-circumstance testing at LeMans itself. Claiming 2nd at Spa was just a bonus.
And they received a BoP boost after that race going into LeMans. The fact is, Ford's strongest competitors all received negative overall BoP adjustments, while Ford received an overall boost. So it's hard to say they were fastest because they did a better job, or their car was built to the newer standards, or whatever.

Look, I'm not trying to bash on Ford. As I said earlier in this thread before the race really got started, I was rooting for them to do well and crowd the podium. But it became very obvious that the BoP adjustments were badly mishandled this year. At the very least the Corvettes and Porsches should have been a factor to some degree, but they were all backmarkers.
 

bone

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Look, I'm not trying to bash on Ford.
that's exactly what i am trying to do :lol:

all the credit to the team, the mechanics, the drivers, they did a great job and deserve the win
but ford as a company didn't make history, didn't achieve anything worth mentioning
 

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Good food for thougt

It's been a week since the checkered flag. We all know what happened. It's hard to forget, and even harder to forgive.

It's been a week and we still don't know what to say...here it goes....

ISSUE #1: Ford GT - Waivers
Ford built a racecar to go to Le Mans and win on the 50th anniversary of the historic Ford GT40 victory in 1966. There is a roadcar in the works, but here in-lies the problem. Per the GTE regulations, a specific number of road cars must be produced and before a racecar can be homologated and able to race. Ford played the chicken and the egg scenario to their advantage and received permission to race before a single production car was ever built. This has caused a major stink with fans, but the reality of the situation was that a special waiver was given to Ford, with the agreed upon permission with all of the competing manufactures, to allow the GT to race in 2016. Nothing more can be said.

ISSUE #2 - Is the GT within the spirit of the race?
As said before, GTE cars are homologated after their road going counterparts. The GT is a racecar of which a roadcar is being built to legalize the racecar. Is this debatable, yes. Is it true, yes. Will Ford ever admit it, no. Is it within the spirit of the race, not in our opinion.

ISSUE #3: Sandbagging
It has been know by everyone except the ACO that the Ford GT has been sandbagging all season in the WEC, and all the way up to Wednesday practice at Le Mans. It became clear to everyone when they managed to find an extra 5 seconds of lap time in qualifying. It's normal for teams to not show all of their performance before qualifying, but usually it's 0.5 - 1 second. NOT FIVE SECONDS!!!!

ISSUE #4: BoP - Part A
Balance of Performance....the great equalizer and hot button topic for teams and fans alike. If it is done properly, it can and has been shown to provide iconic and historical racing memories that will be featured on highlight reels for decades to come. The first issue with BoP in this case is Turbo vs Naturally Aspirated engines. There was a clear performance gap between turbo and N/A cars. In the history of motorsport, no one has ever successfully balanced tubro cans with N/A cars. With today's data logger technology and if BoP is implemented correctly, it is as close as it can get. We have seen it nearly perfectly executed at Daytona 24 earlier this year.

ISSUE 5: BoP - Part B
The other BoP issue for Le Mans this year is the ACO's complete lack of proper execution of BoP. Corvette was the quickest overall at test day with most of the field within 1 second. After test day, the ACO issued a BoP adjustment with massive adjustments without any real reasons why. Corvette was hit the hardest and went from the front of the field to the back of the field.
After the obvious sandbagging was exposed, the ACO issued another BoP adjustment in an attempt to bring everyone closer together. It didn't work.
Just to drive home how bad the BoP was, the winning #68 Ford GT had several issues throughout the race, was issued a post race time penalty, and still won. The #63 Corvette had ZERO issues, just came in for fuel and tires for all 24 hours, and finished 5 laps down to the leader.

ISSUE 6: BoP - Part C
2016 is the 50th anniversary of the iconic Ford vs Ferrari battle. Could this BoP catastrophe have been a complete setup from the start? It's pretty curious how both Ford and Ferrari were by far the quickest cars in the class. So much so that 7 out of the 14 cars (50%) in class were completely uncharacteristically uncompetitive. The fairy-tail script was written before the green flag flew. All Ford had to to was execute.

ISSUE 7: Unsportsmanlike Conduct from Ford
Already having the bad guy reputation, Ford added fuel to the fire when nearing the end of the race a senior member of Ford entered the Risi Competizione garage with a piece of paper, revealed as an official protest over a non-operational leader light on the side of the #82 Ferrari, then running second, behind the leading #68 Ford, and ahead of the #69 and #66 Fords. This was a clear power move by Ford with a greedy desire to sweep the podium. Guiseppe Risi clearly wasn't having it and the protest was filed. The #82 Ferrari never came in for the repairs and was issued a black and orange flag. The Ferrari never complied. Risi then issued a counter protest against the winning Ford for a slow zone infringement earlier in the race. The race stewards imposed time penalties on both cars, post race, but the overall finishing order did not change.

There has never been a more controversial race on so many levels that we have seen since Corvette Racing entered the scene. Corvette Racing was going for back to back Triple Crown victories, and it's 100th team victory. They were never given a chance. This team works too hard for this...
http://badboyvettes.com/831
 

Vipergts662

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Something not many people have been discussing the Ford AND Ferrari are built to the new specs, Corvette, Aston and Porsche were racing year old cars. Does Porsche really count considering the factory took a year off anyway?

I understand the bitching but when you are basically sitting out a year and racing with old stuff you know it will never be a fair fight.

Ford could have prevented a lot of this if they hadn't acted like a bunch of punks during testing and practice, no one accidentally finds that much time in two weeks. OTOH for Corvette to complain this much when they haven't had much consistent competition since Dodge pulled the original GTS-R not to mention their efforts to BoP the piss out of the last GTS-R and Corvette still managed to loose the championship is laughable as well.
 

Psirus

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ISSUE #1: Ford GT - Waivers
Ford built a racecar to go to Le Mans and win on the 50th anniversary of the historic Ford GT40 victory in 1966. There is a roadcar in the works, but here in-lies the problem. Per the GTE regulations, a specific number of road cars must be produced and before a racecar can be homologated and able to race. Ford played the chicken and the egg scenario to their advantage and received permission to race before a single production car was ever built. This has caused a major stink with fans, but the reality of the situation was that a special waiver was given to Ford, with the agreed upon permission with all of the competing manufactures, to allow the GT to race in 2016. Nothing more can be said.
First agreeing to it, but then complaining when the new car actually wins seems a bit hyporitical.

ISSUE #2 - Is the GT within the spirit of the race?
As said before, GTE cars are homologated after their road going counterparts. The GT is a racecar of which a roadcar is being built to legalize the racecar. Is this debatable, yes. Is it true, yes. Will Ford ever admit it, no. Is it within the spirit of the race, not in our opinion.
This is not the first time this has happened, in many homologated series. And it often ends up being the stories you hear about 20 years later. Was the Porsche GT1 not within the spirit of the race? Why?
 

TC

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First agreeing to it, but then complaining when the new car actually wins seems a bit hyporitical.
It doesn't sound like the other manufacturers are complaining about it, just the fans, who never agreed to it.

Besides, can you imagine if the other teams said No? They would be accused of cowardice, among other things.
 
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