Libya, U.S. boots on the ground and Islamic government. Wow who could have predicted.

argatoga

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Libya?s Interim Leader Calls for State Based on Rule of Law, Islam

Posted Tuesday, September 13th, 2011 at 1:51 am

The head of Libya's transitional government urged thousands of cheering supporters in the capital, Tripoli, late Monday to support a civil, democratic state that honors Islam and respects the rule of law.

The chairman of the National Transitional Council, Mustafa Abdel Jalil, said his provisional administration seeks a state where ?Islamic law is the basis for legislation,? but rejects any extremist ideology ?on the right or the left.?

Jalil arrived in Tripoli Saturday for the first time since his allies chased former leader Moammar Gadhafi out of the city. He addressed the rowdy crowd in Martyrs' Square, a site that until recently was used for pro-Gadhafi rallies. Jalil had been running the provisional government from the eastern city of Benghazi, cradle of the revolt that overthrew Mr. Gadhafi last month.

Jalil also called on Libyans to avoid reprisal attacks against Gadhafi holdouts, saying Libya's judicial system should alone administer justice to those ?who harmed the Libyan people.?

In a report released Tuesday, Amnesty International said both sides of the conflict have committed war crimes during the six-month civil war. The report mainly details crimes against civilians committed by Gadhafi loyalists, but also documented brutal revenge crimes committed by some provisional authority forces when loyalist fighters were ejected from eastern Libya.

Forces loyal to Mr. Gadhafi launched a series of counterattacks early Monday, including a surprise raid that killed 15 guards at a key oil refinery in the coastal city of Ras Lanuf, deep inside NTC-controlled territory. Battles also continued near Mr. Gadhafi's hometown of Sirte and in parts of the oasis city of Bani Walid, southeast of Tripoli.

Also Monday, China officially recognized the NTC as the ?ruling authority and representative of the Libyan people.? Algerian officials said late Sunday they would recognize the NTC as Libya's rightful authority once a ?representative government is in place.?

Moammar Gadhafi's whereabouts is still unknown. Late Saturday, Guinea Bissau's prime minister said his country would welcome the ousted leader should he seek exile in the West African country. Guinea Bissau had strong ties to Mr. Gadhafi's government when he was in power.

A message attributed to the former leader Monday urged Libyans to press ahead for his cause and not to surrender the nation to what he called ?colonialism? and ?foreign influence.?

http://blogs.voanews.com/breaking-news/2011/09/13/libyas-interim-leader-calls-for-state-based-on-rule-of-law-islam-3/


American Military Team Visits Libya to Assess Risks of Reopening U.S. Embassy
TRIPOLI, Libya ? American forces are back on the shores of Tripoli ? albeit in a small way.

Seven months of images from the fighting between rebels and forces loyal to Col. Muammar el-Qaddafi.
Related

Libyan Transitional Leader Urges Reconciliation, Using Symbolism of Tripoli Site (September 13, 2011)
Qaddafi Strongholds Are Attacked (September 10, 2011)
Times Topic: Libya ? Protests and Revolt (2011)
Four members of the American military are in Tripoli, the Libyan capital, to determine what security measures are necessary to reopen the United States Embassy here, a Pentagon spokesman said Tuesday.

The embassy closed when staff members and other American citizens were evacuated during the six-month revolution that drove Col. Muammar el-Qaddafi from power. It is now preparing to reopen as Libyan-American relations begin a new chapter.

Diplomatic relations with what is now Libya have a complex history going back to America?s first decades. Though another North African Muslim state, Morocco, was among the first countries in the world to recognize the United States diplomatically, the new nation soon fought the Barbary Wars in the region over attacks on its ships by Berber pirates from Tripoli ? the origin of the ?shores of Tripoli? reference in the Marines? Hymn.

In more recent years, given America?s seesawing relationship with Colonel Qaddafi, the United States Embassy was closed for a long time. Even after it reopened in 2006, it was guarded by Libyan security personnel, not the Marine guards that are common at other diplomatic posts around the world.

Now, with Colonel Qaddafi ousted, many Libyans express excitement at the prospect of improved relations with the West and the rest of the world. Officials of the de facto government and citizens alike say they plan to seek foreign advice about establishing the rule of law, expanding their economy and adhering to international human rights standards after decades of isolation.

The challenges involved were highlighted on Tuesday when Amnesty International released a report contending that anti-Qaddafi forces had committed unlawful killings and torture during the rebellion.

The report said that the pro-Qaddafi forces had committed many more serious violations, but that Colonel Qaddafi?s opponents ?have also committed human rights abuses, in some cases amounting to war crimes, albeit on a smaller scale.?

The Transitional National Council, the new government in Libya, issued a statement on Tuesday acknowledging that there had been ?a small number of incidents? committed by anti-Qaddafi fighters during the uprising.

The council condemned ?any abuses perpetrated by either side? and said it was ?firmly committed to upholding human rights and the rule of law, both international and local ? the violation of rights no longer has a place in Libya.?

Dr. Aref Nayed, the chief of the council?s stabilization team, said a day before the report was released that a top priority was to seek the advice of international experts to establish Libyan institutions that could protect the human rights of both sides in the conflict.

Many Libyans say they are hungry for foreign advice and help; some road signs even display the flags of the United States and other Western countries and thank them for their assistance ? a rare sight in this part of the world. But Libyans are wary of the possibility that foreign interests might hijack their revolution, making even the visit of four members of the American military a delicate matter.

Capt. John Kirby of the Navy, a spokesman for the Joint Chiefs of Staff, told The Associated Press that the American service members, including two who specialize in the disposal of explosives, are not in Libya in an offensive or defensive military capacity, only to help the State Department.

The Pentagon has acknowledged only once before that American service members were inside Libya during the uprising ? in March, when Marines rescued an American pilot who had ejected over the country while participating in a NATO airstrike. There has been speculation that intelligence personnel were on the ground helping to target airstrikes. The White House said no ground troops would be deployed during the NATO action.


Diplomatic relations soured early in Colonel Qaddafi?s rule; the United States withdrew its ambassador in 1972 and closed its embassy in 1979 after a mob burned it. That same year, the United States listed Libya as a sponsor of terrorism; in 1986, after a bombing in a Berlin disco, the United States conducted airstrikes in Libya. Relations worsened with the bombing of Pan Am Flight 103 in 1988.

But in 2003, relations started to normalize after Colonel Qaddafi renounced chemical, biological and nuclear weapons. A liaison office opened in 2004; it was upgraded to an embassy in 2006.

While other American embassies in the region tend to be fortresslike compounds, the Libyan government had not given permission for construction, and the American diplomatic offices in Tripoli were instead in residential houses.

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/09/14/world/africa/pentagon-team-in-tripoli-quietly-assesses-risks-in-reopening-embassy.html

Great work. So we have troops on the ground and the rebels want an Islamic government.
 
Great work. So we have troops on the ground and the rebels want an Islamic government.
Uh, we have 4 guys there to look at what it will take to get an embassy up and running. Per the part you bolded yourself, they're there on behalf of the State Department, not as a fighting force. We're not fighting a land war there by any stretch of the imagination. As for Jalil, he is relatively moderate and there's no reason to jump to conclusions over his call for Islamic law. He's a religious man and in that very speech, calling for Islamic law as the basis of government, he also dismisses extremism. Hell there are plenty of politicians in America who say much more disturbing things.
 
If a handful of service members being in a country on some non-fighting assignment counts as having "U.S. boots on the ground" then chances are you have just that in the majority of nations on this planet.
 
Where does it say only four guys? These are still US personal working on the ground. How many only the military and executive branch knows.

Jalil said "Islamic law is the basis for legislation". How does he define "extremism"? Does he consider Iran extremist?

EDIT: Didn't catch this post:

If a handful of service members being in a country on some non-fighting assignment counts as having "U.S. boots on the ground" then chances are you have just that in the majority of nations on this planet.

We aren't bombing other nations at the moment.
 
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Where does it say only four guys?

Right here: "Many Libyans say they are hungry for foreign advice and help; some road signs even display the flags of the United States and other Western countries and thank them for their assistance ? a rare sight in this part of the world. But Libyans are wary of the possibility that foreign interests might hijack their revolution, making even the visit of four members of the American military a delicate matter."
 
Right here: "Many Libyans say they are hungry for foreign advice and help; some road signs even display the flags of the United States and other Western countries and thank them for their assistance ? a rare sight in this part of the world. But Libyans are wary of the possibility that foreign interests might hijack their revolution, making even the visit of four members of the American military a delicate matter."

I missed that. It doesn't state that is the whole of the U.S. ground personal.
 
I missed that. It doesn't state that is the whole of the U.S. ground personal.

It doesn't. However, that's all you know, all you need to claim (my interpretation here) "Obama fucked us over, he promised no boots on the ground! :cry:".
 
Well that quote pretty much sums up my opinion. And for those who didn't know, I was against the Iraq war as well and am for removing troops from Iraq and Afghanistan.

Bush, Obama I don't care who made the order we shouldn't be involving ourselves in these civil wars for "good reasons". See Cold War.
 
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1) We have boots on the ground everywhere that we have an embassy. If you want to continue with your inflammatory language, argatoga, then it is safe to say we currently occupy every nation in Europe. With regards to Libya, we have an embassy to secure. As with every other embassy, that involves military personnel working with the State Department. What is the issue?

2) To quote again...

The head of Libya's transitional government urged thousands of cheering supporters in the capital, Tripoli, late Monday to support a civil, democratic state that honors Islam and respects the rule of law.

The chairman of the National Transitional Council, Mustafa Abdel Jalil, said his provisional administration seeks a state where ?Islamic law is the basis for legislation,? but rejects any extremist ideology ?on the right or the left.?

If Libya wants a democratic government with Islamic influences, then good on them. As long as they are democratically choosing their own government style. Despite what people seem to think, Islamic law is not synonymous with oppression and anti-americanism, even if it is in certain cases.
 
I think even you have to admit that you're grasping at straws here. You know perfectly well what "boots on the ground" means, and this isn't it.
 
1) We have boots on the ground everywhere that we have an embassy. If you want to continue with your inflammatory language, argatoga, then it is safe to say we currently occupy every nation in Europe. With regards to Libya, we have an embassy to secure. As with every other embassy, that involves military personnel working with the State Department. What is the issue?

We are killing and bombing people in Libya. Last I heard we weren't doing that elsewhere outside of Iraq and Afghanistan.

2) To quote again...



If Libya wants a democratic government with Islamic influences, then good on them. As long as they are democratically choosing their own government style. Despite what people seem to think, Islamic law is not synonymous with oppression and anti-americanism, even if it is in certain cases.

Like Iran?

I think even you have to admit that you're grasping at straws here. You know perfectly well what "boots on the ground" means, and this isn't it.

Right we are sending in advisers. When has the U.S. done that before...
 
The story you yourself cited and bolded phrases of says the troops are there for the State Department, to determine security measures needed for the US embassy, and the only once before have there been American personnel on the ground, and that is when the F-15 crew was being rescued. What is wrong with that? That is normal, no matter what country it is.
 
Are the US flying the bombing raids over Libya?

I thought it was a UN action, which I guess means US provides the muscle?
 
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Right we are sending in advisers. When has the U.S. done that before...
Four. Four advisers. Trying to establish a US embassy.

What, do you literally think Obama is trying to sneak in one soldier at a time so we don't notice? And what exactly would they be fighting at this point, anyway? Yes, there is still fighting, but it's contained and nothing the existing forces can't handle.
 
David Cameron is in Libya just now. British boots on the ground! Call Me Dave is taking over up in this bitch...

Nah, the NTC has already been recognized and is in control of most of the country. At this point it's Gadaffi's forces who are the rebels. There's nothing suspicious about a handful of people who are in the employ of a military being assigned to assist with infrastructure matters.

Didn't the SAS already perform ground operations in Libya? I recall reports of them botching a mission and being asked by the NTC to leave. That action was far more militaristic than this. The CIA, too (wikipedia).

Are the US flying the bombing raids over Libya?

I thought it was a UN action, which I guess means US provides the muscle?

I believe the US committed a good number of ships, but France mostly and the UK I believe have been behind the biggest numbers of sorties.
 
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Four. Four advisers. Trying to establish a US embassy.

What, do you literally think Obama is trying to sneak in one soldier at a time so we don't notice? And what exactly would they be fighting at this point, anyway? Yes, there is still fighting, but it's contained and nothing the existing forces can't handle.

They still didn't give us the total number. I was told that killing people in another nation against its will was not war unless there were people on the ground (Gaddafi was the head of state before the pro Islamic Republic TNC started fighting). Here are people on the ground. How many are needed to call this attacking of another nation's military, population, and government a war?

The biggest issue is that our war of good intentions is looking like it is backfiring with the establishing of an Iran like state. So we have reverted to the mistakes of the Cold War. Does Obama have Rumsfeld on speed dial?
 
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Here are people on the ground. How many are needed to call this attacking of another nation's military, population, and government a war?

They're working with the government and military.

Gadaffi isn't part of any recognized government any more, and his "military" are just a bunch of hired guns from other African nations.
 
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