London Burning

Aoshi_88

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OK, so in your world, being rude to a salesperson (a classic, almost stereotypical feature of the new rich, not the poor) warrants getting punched?
Isn't that the same world as one in which an accidental killing of a suspect during an arrest warrants a riot?
Sadly no, that reaction would not be what I want to happen. Though there are times when you think they deserve it. Then you pause and reflect and say, "I wouldn't want to be punched either" and halt at that. But sometimes by then it would be too late.

I'm a firm believer in "treat others how you want to be treated" and "do not do unto others what you do not wish done upon yourself" but not everyone thinks that way. Eye-for-an-eye never gets anyone anywhere, it just keeps perpetuating the vicious circle.
 

Dr_Grip

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This means we're basically on the same page here, OK ;)
 

captain_70s

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Fine. But let's at least stop putting up economic hurdels. And anyway, a criminal record shouldn't mean expulsion from school. That just makes it harder to integrate the toddlers into society.
The lack of economic hurdles has helped to devalue the qualifications you get. The reason jobs are hard to get without a degree is because everyone goes to university now.

Back when my dad left college in the mid 80s he couldn't go to university because he couldn't afford it, neither could most people. Because degrees were less common, people without degrees weren't frowned upon like they seem to be today. Far more employers were willing to take on workers without degrees simply because there were far more people who didn't.
It's not like not having a university education will hold you back forever, my Dad started work with delivering rental TVs and fixing jukeboxes and now runs his own business servicing and selling equipment in the food industry.

People now seem to believe they should be enter employment at managerial level without having to work their way up, and if they can't get a nice job straight away they just don't bother getting one. This is due to lack of effort and the feeling entitlement a lot of youth today seem to have. They are perfectly able to make something of themselves in life, but the government has made it far easier to sit on your arse on benefits for your whole life.

A MAJOR problem with the UK now-a-days is nobody can be a bad guy, every wrong-doing person is portrayed as some tragic anti-hero, down on their luck with no future. This constant attempt to JUSTIFY their actions is ridiculous, society will never work if you make people breaking the law feel like they in the right.
 

Dr_Grip

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The lack of economic hurdles has helped to devalue the qualifications you get. The reason jobs are hard to get without a degree is because everyone goes to university now.
Nope. You got it totally, completely, utterly wrong. The reason why jobs are hard to get without a degree, and, at the same time, the reason why it is vitally important for the economic prospects of all of Europe that more people get university degrees is that in a globalized economy, unskilled labour is being outsourced to where it's cheaper.
People now seem to believe they should be enter employment at managerial level without having to work their way up, and if they can't get a nice job straight away they just don't bother getting one. This is due to lack of effort and the feeling entitlement a lot of youth today seem to have. They are perfectly able to make something of themselves in life, but the government has made it far easier to sit on your arse on benefits for your whole life.
If it is so easy to sit on your arse on benefits, then why again did you move out of your own place and back in with your parents? Seriously, you of all people should know that the jolly life of the unemployed is a myth.

Given all your whining about your educational success and job prospects, or lack of both, I am almost inclinded to neg-rep you for this post.
 
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In Dr Grips world, some crackhead rapes a 90 year old woman and the police are supposed to offer the rapist a cup of tea?
 

Dr_Grip

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In Dr Grips world, some crackhead rapes a 90 year old woman and the police are supposed to offer the rapist a cup of tea?
In my world, the crackhead gets arrested, gets a fair trial and, if found guilty, a higher prison sentence than someone who evaded taxes. Guess which part won't happen these days.

How many cups of tea he will or will not drink while in custody is beside the point.
 
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captain_70s

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Nope. You got it totally, completely, utterly wrong. The reason why jobs are hard to get without a degree, and, at the same time, the reason why it is vitally important for the economic prospects of all of Europe that more people get university degrees is that in a globalized economy, unskilled labour is being outsourced to where it's cheaper.

If it is so easy to sit on your arse on benefits, then why again did you move out of your own place and back in with your parents? Seriously, you of all people should know that the jolly life of the unemployed is a myth.

Given all your whining about your educational success and job prospects, or lack of both, I am almost inclinded to neg-rep you for this post.
For one thing, there are not enough high end jobs to support a country of this size. Without unskilled labour there will always be a high unemployment level, the majority of workers for the past several thousand years have been unskilled. Its great having jobs that require a degree and high level education but there are also hundreds of people applying for each post. It is not sustainable


The reason I am with my parents is because I am a snob and refuse to live in council accommodation, not because I can't, because I won't.

I am lazy and spoilt and will probably contribute nothing of worth to society, if I hadn't been pulled out of school for throwing chairs at people and had maintained social acceptability I would probably have become the exact sort of person who is rioting. I actually had far better opportunities than many people and threw them away, I always have.
I am a hypocrite, but from what I see there is plenty of opportunity for people to achieve if they try. Just because I never have and (as much I'd like to say and believe I'll improve as person) probably never will doesn't mean other people can't.
 

Heathrow

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So, the BBC News received some complaints from people in Scotland, pointing out that there were no riots in their country as yet. The BBC News changed their strap line from "UK Riots" to:

BBC News - England riots: Fightback under way, says PM

BBC News said:
..
Mr Cameron, speaking after a meeting of the government's Cobra emergency committee, said police had the legal backing to use any tactics necessary to bring the situation under control, including using baton rounds.

more via link
Actually the PM was told by Commissioner Brian Orme, head of ACPO and former boss of NI Police Service, that water cannon and baton rounds were unsuitable or not that effective for the fast moving, mobile rioting mobs. Good for "gaining space" with a large stationary mob.

* * *

BBC News - England riots: Are brooms the symbol of the resistance?

Very good to see the locals in Manchester and elsewhere turning out to help clear up the mess. Well done people!

* * *

BBC News - Courts run through night for riot accused

BBC News said:
Four magistrates courts in London are sitting to process some of the hundreds of people charged in connection with the riots in the capital. The BBC's legal correspondent Clive Coleman was at Highbury Corner Magistrates' Court.

At Highbury Corner Magistrates' Court, in north London, the accused are a broad variety of people with different ethnic backgrounds and job profiles.

One case before the court on Wednesday morning was a man called Alexis Bailey, a 31-year-old who works at a primary school in Stockwell. He was found in an electrical goods store in Croydon on Monday and pleaded guilty to burglary.

His case was typical in that the magistrates, having heard the guilty plea, committed him for sentence at Crown Court.

The reason for that is they felt the riot was such an aggravating feature to the burglary that the Crown Court, with its additional powers, ought to pass sentence.

The magistrates could only impose a jail term of six months - at the Crown Court, that sentence could be up to 10 years.


more via link
That is quite impressive, the courts have been working all night thru.

Also, the referral to the higher court, indicates that a jail term of more than six months is likely.

The range of people being convicted is wide, many have jobs and are not all just greedy, unemployed and bored teenagers. The courts are mostly processing the cases where a guilty plea is entered.

Police have made arrests in three of the most high profile cases, the triple murder by vehicle in Birmingham, the large furniture store arson in Croyden and the "miss Sellfridge" arson in Manchester.


* * *

This means we're basically on the same page here, OK ;)
I agree with you too.
 

Heathrow

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A quick PS on what the courts are doing.

Don't know about others, but Croyden magistrates are NOT BAILING anyone involved after conviction, whilst awaiting sentence.

Likewise, the London cops are holding in a Police cell, everyone who was nicked as part of the riots.

Government e-petitions website is currently crashing under the weight of people trying to sign the petition to remove benefits from anyone convicted of rioting, this one is almost definitely going to go before parliament.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-14474429
Not sure to be honest, but I don't think they would get benefits if they are in jail anyway.

Please tell me it ain't so!

* shakes head in anticipation of answer*
 

WillDAQ

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Government e-petitions website is currently crashing under the weight of people trying to sign the petition to remove benefits from anyone convicted of rioting, this one is almost definitely going to go before parliament.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-14474429
Yep, thousands of people suggesting that the rioters 'loose' benefits.. whatever the fuck that means.
 

Dr_Grip

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Not sure to be honest, but I don't think they would get benefits if they are in jail anyway.
I think it's about those getting a suspended sentence, not jail time. In their case, I don't think literally removing their benefits would be wise - no one wants starving people, especially as they would be even harder to control.

Not wanting to be cynical, but beside the German police being quite loose with their water cannons the main reason why we don't see that kind of riots here is that we pay the unemployed enough ransom money benefits* to keep stocked on alcohol, cigarettes and reality TV, thus they don't bother rioting.
Money well invested if you ask me.

*364 Euros/months plus rent and heating money, around 650 Euros total. The rent is paid directly to the landlord, the unemployed never see that money, thus can't spend it and skip the rent.
 
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nomix

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Finally, no more softly-softly.





Manchester police wins.
That's stupid. The role of the police is not to administer justice, that, is the role of the courts and prison system. Justice, in lack of a better word, is not hitting some random guy on the head with a truncheon, no matter how bad it gets. If that guy wasn't violent, he shouldn't be arbitrarily hit over the head with a truncheon. End.

I wanted "Texas Justice" days ago, the government has lifted the water cannon ban, after what feels like 18 months of rioting.

"You break the law, we break your legs." Vote for me as the Mayor of Hull.
I wouldn't even give you my vote as dog catcher if that was your running slogan. It's about as fine language as "brooom brooom, wosh wosh, bubble bubble, bloody oiks".

The lack of economic hurdles has helped to devalue the qualifications you get. The reason jobs are hard to get without a degree is because everyone goes to university now.
That's part of it, but part of the reason everybody goes to university is that most good jobs actually require it. I'm not to well versed with the work market for media jobs in Britain, but I'm betting it's bloody hard to find anything if you don't have either tons of experience, or a degree. To take just one type of job.

Society needs to stop this mad idea that every job mandates a degree. And that having a degree will always make you more qualified than someone who don't. In a lot of cases, that is just plainly wrong.

But it doesn't help anyone to make it more expensive, and more dependant on personal wealth.That just backs up the old class system, and I don't think we want that.

Back when my dad left college in the mid 80s he couldn't go to university because he couldn't afford it, neither could most people. Because degrees were less common, people without degrees weren't frowned upon like they seem to be today. Far more employers were willing to take on workers without degrees simply because there were far more people who didn't.
It's not like not having a university education will hold you back forever, my Dad started work with delivering rental TVs and fixing jukeboxes and now runs his own business servicing and selling equipment in the food industry.
And in the media, the list of self made men is in the thousands. Literally. But as it is, gaining meaningfull, long time employment will for many people mean having to get a degree. Being accepted by a major party as a candidate for Parliament will in most cases mandate some sort of degree as well. So making it too expensive to get a degree will lead to less social mobility, and more posh people in parliament. There's a reason HIGNFY can get away with saying "Cameron said the cuts would be comprehensive, the first time he said comprehensive without adding "oik"."

People now seem to believe they should be enter employment at managerial level without having to work their way up, and if they can't get a nice job straight away they just don't bother getting one. This is due to lack of effort and the feeling entitlement a lot of youth today seem to have. They are perfectly able to make something of themselves in life, but the government has made it far easier to sit on your arse on benefits for your whole life.
You guys can learn a lot from Norwegian media. It's usually said that while a bachelor in sociology is only good enough to get a master in sociology, a master in journalism, accepting you want to work as a journalist, is as useful as a chocolate tea pot. You just don't need it.

A MAJOR problem with the UK now-a-days is nobody can be a bad guy, every wrong-doing person is portrayed as some tragic anti-hero, down on their luck with no future. This constant attempt to JUSTIFY their actions is ridiculous, society will never work if you make people breaking the law feel like they in the right.
Perhaps it would be useful, if you instead of thinking "justify" thought about "explaining". While I hardly ever see a need or a reason to justify crimes, there's hardly any crime which can't be explained in some way, and it's rarely a bad idea to try.

Government e-petitions website is currently crashing under the weight of people trying to sign the petition to remove benefits from anyone convicted of rioting, this one is almost definitely going to go before parliament.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-14474429
That's daft.

Edit: I'd just like to add. Let's not condone needless police violence, okay? I know it's daft to be out in the streets, but we are after all talking about a nation that abandoned good bitter for piss lager, so who knows. We know there are cops who like to hit people over the head. Don't just blindly accept every single case of head-bashing as legitimate. It might be someone who has done nothing. It might end up being you one day.
 
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Spectre

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Spectre; calls for water canons or rubber bullets are pointless - in the vast majority of cases the problem has been that the looters cause havoc before the police can get there and are gone by the time they arrive. It's a minority of cases where the police actually end up face-to-face with the looters.
Mostly because of really crappy deployment times and a inability of the UK police to be proactive about problems.

What's needed is a better network of police on as many street corners as possible ready to respond rapidly for discouragement purposes until this particular zeitgeist has blown over. You can't subdue that zeitgeist with force, that would only re-enforce it in their small minds.
Considering that interviewed UK rioters say they're doing this because they won't have any significant consequences, I think you're wrong. They need to be 'informed' that this crap really isn't going to be tolerated - in the swiftest and most effective methods available.

The UK isn't Texas or LA and the mindset of the criminals isn't the same either. When I was in the states I noticed very clearly that there wasn't really any US equivalent of inner-city urban hoodies or chavs. They're a uniquely British cultural phenomenon.
The hell we don't. They don't wear hoodies (mostly because it's too damn hot), but we've got inner city 'unemployed thuggish youths' by the truckload. Same general character type.

One of the 'uniforms' for that type here is the white T-shirt or athletic team jersey over black or dark knee-length shorts, usually baggy. Believe me, we have them.

I'm not suggesting you're entirely wrong, I just keep seeing post after post from you and I can't imagine you're as in tune with the UK cultural problems as you would be with your own domestic cultural problems.
The immediate solution for widespread rioting that's gotten out of control where the innocent are getting killed is swift and harsh repression of the rioters and looters. It's always been the case, and it doesn't matter where the rioting is. Other approaches have been tried over the centuries and mostly none of them work.

A long-term solution is something else entirely, and I've not said much about that, but before you can apply any long-term solutions you have to get the bastards to stop burning, looting and pillaging.

UK has six water cannons in Northern Ireland.

Bring the troops out on the streets is not necessarily a good thing. The British Army have created too many marytrs on the streets around the world.
They have a lot more than that. They're called 'fire engines'.

Failing to see how this is worse than what they have right now. It's not going to be Bloody Sunday again - and trust me, I'm sensitive to that as I'm a quarter Irish - but the world needs to land on these assholes yesterday.

I would also commend the history of famous widespread riots lasting several days - I believe you will find that most of them were only stopped when military force was applied. The Nika riots in Constantinople only stopped because Justinian sent in the military and killed 30,000 people. (After which, he didn't have any riots for a while. I wonder why.) The New York Draft Riots of 1863 only ended when the military started shelling the city with artillery. The LA Riots of 1992 ended when the military showed up with machine guns and started shooting people that were running checkpoints. I can go on.

One of the main reasons they are doing this.... they know for a fact they can get away with it. Majority will not be caught, its strength in numbers and they know the police are stretched. But the ones that do get caught... will of been caught before for various similar crimes and know full well that they'll get a slap on the wrist and will be back in the dole queue to get their hand outs. They have reached a state of impunity.
There's actually a piece on that in the Telegraph today.


Now, just what will these consequences be you may ask? Well, for those over eighteen whatever custodial sentences they do receive, if any, they will no doubt serve just a fraction of their sentences as is common for most criminals in the UK. However, in what will clearly be a perversion of justice, those rioters under eighteen will be treated as if they too are the victims of the very crimes they have commited, as this is the ethos at the heart of the youth justice system. I know this from having worked alongside and in the Youth Offending Service. Within a few weeks many of these rioters that you are now watching loot, burn and terrorise on a twenty four news channel will be on an Intensive Surveillance and Supervision Programme, where they will spend the majority of their ?sentence? being escorted to gyms, adventure centres, DJ courses and having their lunches bought and paid for and they will even be given the bus fares to attend their ?punishment?. There will be a minimum of community work as part of their ISSP and in some parts of the country the Youth Offending Service will fail to implement this part of the ISSP. I know this will occur because I have seen it first hand. Another part of their ISSP will involve them sitting in on classroom based sessions where staff will ask them what feelings they were experiencing prior to setting their community alight and how best they could channel those feelings in the future. We may even get them to do some ?poster work?, as I have heard it referred to, where they will draw and colour in examples of criminal behaviour just in case they were not aware that torching local businesses and throwing masonry at the police, fire brigade and passers by were indeed criminal acts. When this is the system charged with preventing youth crime is at any wonder we have such high rates of recidivism amongst the more serious of young criminals? Many of the rioters you see on the streets will have been through this sytem. They know there are no real consequences for their actions and thus they behave in the manner we are now viewing.
That's seriously, seriously broken right there.

Michael Arch of Sky News points out (same link above) that even on his own network you can see how thoroughly the politically correct idiocy has infested all of Britain (and thereby made people deny reality because such things can't possibly be true according to the PC worldview.)

Funniest interview ever on Sky. Female Sky reporter interviewing a white guy who has had his shops burned. He said to her , the arsonists/looters were all black. She said to him , you can?t say that , there must have been white guys there as well. He thought about and then said , ok they were not all black , i was the only white guy there. Is that ok to say ?

This guy states this with a totally dead pan face without a hint of the pc faux pas.

She again corrects him and states nervously you just cant say they were all black , he responds , but they were i was there.

Unbelievable. The interview describes the state of our society in a nut shell.
Finally, no more softly-softly.

Nice adapted 10th gen F350s there. Even Europeans have to admit their utility. :evil:

Yeah. I also wish they hadn't kettled a couple of thousands non-violent protesters several times at different places. Because if they hadn't, they might NOT have had to play politics this way.
They were playing these same stupid games before they started kettling people. They're probably going to continue doing so even after the riots are over. Saw the same thing in Los Angeles and I'm seeing the same issues starting to appear there as did before the 1992 riots... LA has riots about every 20 years or so because of similar idiocy.

Keep in mind, I used to be quite leftist and liberal. It was the 92 riots that made me change my mind.

If these riots have taught us anything, then how important it is that the government has not only the theoretical, but de facto monopoly on violence and the means to uphold it.
The UK government DOES have a de facto monopoly on legal violence. How's that working out for their citizens here? I'm sure the dead would have something to say about that - oh, wait, they can't, because they're dead.

A government that has a monopoly on legal violence and then fails to use it in defense of its citizens needs to have it taken away.

I have just pointed out what is and what is not legal - Citizens arrest and detention is, beating the crap out of someone, no matter how much they provoke you, is not.
Keep resisting the citizens' arrest, well, you keep getting beat is how that works. :p

"STOP RESISTING" <whump whump> "STOP RESISTING" <whump whump>

Nope. You got it totally, completely, utterly wrong. The reason why jobs are hard to get without a degree, and, at the same time, the reason why it is vitally important for the economic prospects of all of Europe that more people get university degrees is that in a globalized economy, unskilled labour is being outsourced to where it's cheaper.
Except there are whole loads of skilled labor positions in industry that aren't going to get roboticized any time soon, that you don't have to go and get a college degree to be competent or marketable in, and that you can actually go to a vocational school and get your certifications in a relatively short amount of time. One thing that some people in the US have been saying for a long time that many are starting to realize the validity of - college isn't for everyone, nor should it be, and there are plenty of vocational schools for out there begging for students to fill positions in industry even now.

A skilled welder or tool and die man, for example, can make in excess of $250,000 per year. That's more than many doctors make; it's more than many lawyers. No college necessary, and there are distinct shortages of personnel in those fields.

Of course, Western Europe has long denigrated vocational training and the like or at least such is my understanding; there's apparently some sort of social stigma over there (which I just don't understand) for people like welders and fabricators.

You can also work your way up the ladder as well. Mom worked her way up from the bottom in the financial industry and made it to Senior VP of division of a major national bank without a college degree. She did eventually go back and finish her degree out, but that was just for her own edification. She didn't need one in her job.
 
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jmsprovan

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Edit: I'd just like to add. Let's not condone needless police violence, okay? I know it's daft to be out in the streets, but we are after all talking about a nation that abandoned good bitter for piss lager, so who knows. We know there are cops who like to hit people over the head. Don't just blindly accept every single case of head-bashing as legitimate. It might be someone who has done nothing. It might end up being you one day.
Yeah, people on this forum will be rioting someday.
 

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One metric fucktonne of reasoned argument and common sense.
Couldn't agree more.

Plus it is such a shame that the country that spawned the Industrial Revolution now has such snobbery towards skilled artisans of all disciplines.

Whenever I have to employ a skilled tradesperson of any discipline to me it is paramount to engage them in conversation, get as many hints and tips from them for the future and get to know them as people. To me a guy who drives a van and uses tools more often that not has much more worth and integrity than the Audi-driving Gavin with a Sociology degree who plays squash, does "blue sky thinking" and "runs ideas up flagpoles".
 

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We know these idiots aren't bright...



Looting a pound shop, well done. You buy out the store for ?11.
 
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