London Burning

jmsprovan

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A channel 4 reality TV documentary? That's as sound proof as a banana with a hat! I may not do social work, but I do quite a bit of video work. A lot of happy families doesn't sell. They edit it down to get greatest effect. It's done every single day, and it's effective. If they terrorise their neigbors, kick them out. If it's because of something their kids did, then don't. It's that simple.

These 18 year old kids didn't think about concequences. It's just a consignment of geriatric shoe makers to think that being tougher will have any impact. Tougher sentences has never been seen to work, even if you bulldoze someone's home (like the Israelis used to do), it doesn't work. Someone needs to start thinking about how to stop these things from happening. Chest beating just isn't helpful. It's never been, and it never will. But it's popular, it sounds nice in the Mail. It might even lure over some of those middle class people who still vote Labour. But in terms of helping the situation, it is just not useful.
In the same way that being exclusively strict doesn't work, neither does Labour's plan to just throw money at problems and see if it sticks. We need a society where if you break the law it will always be met with strict punishment, while giving people opportunities to draw them away from crime altogether. Something which would be incredibly difficult to accomplish in current economic circumstances because it would be incredibly expensive.
 

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This changes depending on what the individual council's rule is, some are much more strict about priors than others.



Using the main use of these clauses as an example: why should someone be allowed to stay in low-cost council-maintained social housing if they act antisocially, vandalising property, disturbing neighbours ect, when there is always somebody else on the waiting list who would follow the rule of law and not disturb the local peace? If these clauses didn't exist then the councils would need to go through eviction proceedings with the possibility of it being dragged through the court system, all while the offending family remains in the home, continuing to break the law.
Here, I agree with you. The good behaviour agreement that was signed up for, should mean that they break their tenancy agreement, if they upset the next door neighbours.

Where I disagree, is if their the kids go down to the town centre and join a riot, that the same applies.

This seems too much of a stretch to me from the original intent of the contractual agreement, it is also rather suspect in the legal concept of "fairness", which if or when, tested in an appeal court, may be ruled against the city council.

In the same way that being exclusively strict doesn't work, neither does Labour's plan to just throw money at problems and see if it sticks. We need a society where if you break the law it will always be met with strict punishment, while giving people opportunities to draw them away from crime altogether. Something which would be incredibly difficult to accomplish in current economic circumstances because it would be incredibly expensive.
Agree again here, but the punishments and their degree, should be decided by the courts, with no colateral extra punishments by other bodies.

Local city councils are legally obliged to house females with dependant children, even if they have just evicted them from one of their own properties.

You must see the folly in these evictions, if the councils then have to immediately house the same people.

This just seems like an over reaction, in the heat of the moment, after really troubling social unrest. Probably not a good time to be applying new interpretations to existing agreements.
 

jmsprovan

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You must see the folly in these evictions, if the councils then have to immediately house the same people.
If we are still talking about the 18 year old who lost his mum their house, then this wouldn't apply because one stops being classed as a dependant child at 16.

I see your point, though.
 
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nomix

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In the same way that being exclusively strict doesn't work, neither does Labour's plan to just throw money at problems and see if it sticks. We need a society where if you break the law it will always be met with strict punishment, while giving people opportunities to draw them away from crime altogether. Something which would be incredibly difficult to accomplish in current economic circumstances because it would be incredibly expensive.
I agree with that. We can't just throw money at problems and hope they get better. You can't just be kind and naive, and hope people will be kind and naive back.

If you break the law, there must be a sanction. How strict it is isn't as important as you might think, but it can't just be two days, if you're going to give someone a custodial, it must be at least a week.

But as I've said, these kids are NOT deterred by long custodial sentences. Perhaps if that guy who got the proposterous sentence of SIX MONTHS for four bottles of water, got six years, it would be a deterrant. That is, for this guy (as he was clearly not a real looter, he took four bottles of water for crying out loud), some community service would be a strong enough deterrant.

For you and me, the meer idea of getting in prison is bad enough. Cause we're normal guys. So for us the length of the custodial isn't the most important bit. Once these kids have spent time in prison, it is no longer a deterrant. It's not about harsh prisons. It's about avoiding people going to jail, it's bloody important. Every single kid you HAVE to put in jail is a failure.
 

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http://www.wired.com/epicenter/2011/08/turn-off-social-media-and-news/

Amidst widespread calls from MPs, David Cameron has pledged to investigate the possibility of turning off social networks during times of crisis, lumping Britain in with some rather unsavory company.

The U.K. has long criticized countries like China, Iran and Libya for censoring the web and clamping down on dissent, which appears incredibly hypocritical to the rest of the world if he then proceeds to do the same thing on his own turf.
Let's send Cameron to a trip to the DPRK, he'll feel right at home.
 

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Next time he goes to the US, don't let him meet Obama, send him to Mark Zuckerberg.
 

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Re: Current UK police insanity

Essex man arrested for plotting water fight on BlackBerry Messenger

A man from Essex is to appear in court this September, after attempting to organise a mass water fight through BlackBerry Messenger.
Local police found the 20-year-old circulating plans for the event on his mobile phone. He was arrested on 12 August, and charged with "encouraging or assisting in the commission of an indictable only offence under the Serious Crime Act 2007".

Prime Minister David Cameron said last week that the government would investigate shutting down social networking platforms like BlackBerry Messenger and Twitter if they were helping to "plot" crime. The police recently called on MI5 to crack encrypted messages sent through BBM.
http://www.wired.co.uk/news/archive/2011-08/16/water-fight-on-bbm

:|

Someplace in germany old officers from the staatssicherheitsdienst are going "wow, that's messed up".
 
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jack_christie

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The first day of the Crown Court hearings for sentencing, after referred cases from the lower Magistrates Court.

BBC News - Two jailed for using Facebook to incite disorder

BBC News said:
Two men from Cheshire have been jailed for four years each for using Facebook to incite disorder during riots in England last week.

Jordan Blackshaw, 21, of Vale Road, Marston and Perry Sutcliffe-Keenan, 22, of Richmond Avenue, Warrington, were jailed at Chester Crown Court.

more via link
The report says that ten years is the maximum sentence possible. I don't know about you, but the four year sentence has "Appeal Court revision of sentence" written all over it. Neither defendant had any previous criminal records.

They should be jailed for one month for the FB postings and three years & eleven months for being stupid. Unfortunately, being stupid is not against the criminal law.

There is nothing in the BBC report which indicates that anyone on FB actually did, or was incited, to riot as indicated in their FB entries. That may not be relevant to this charge though.

(Context: Just watching "Road Wars" now on TV, for mugging an old lady and stealing a car, one crim was given one year in jail. The same dude got a further 19 months in jail for another similar offence. Not long enough, in my opinion.)

* * *

BBC News - Manchester riots: Three jailed at crown court

BBC News said:
Three men thought to be among the first in England to appear at crown court after last week's riots and looting have been jailed for up to two years.

The men took part in the disorder in Manchester and Salford on 9 August.

David Beswick, 31, Stephen Carter, 26, both from Salford, and Michael Gillespie-Doyle, 18, from Tameside, all pleaded guilty at earlier hearings.

The sentencing judge said their crimes deserved longer sentences than if they had been isolated cases.

..


Beswick, of Anson Street, Eccles, who the court heard had been given a 37in television to put in his car, was jailed for 18 months for handling stolen goods.

Gillespie-Doyle, of Victoria Street, Openshaw, admitted burglary at Sainsbury's in Deansgate in Manchester city centre and was sentenced to two years in a young offenders Institution.

The court heard he had a "long list" of previous convictions.

Carter, of James Street, Salford, was caught in King Street, Manchester, with a bag of clothes and shoes worth ?500. He was sentenced to 16 months in jail for theft by finding.

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These are people who have plead guilty, which would normally attract a non-custodial sentence, I suspect.

I think the appeal Court will be very busy in the near future.
 

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And here I thought the UK as depicted in V for Vendetta was just made up. Obviously it's not, you put people in prison for writing about, not committing, riots. The bare thought of having my civil liberties and human rights taken away like that makes me want to go out and riot.
 

GraemeH

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And here I thought the UK as depicted in V for Vendetta was just made up. Obviously it's not, you put people in prison for writing about, not committing, riots. The bare thought of having my civil liberties and human rights taken away like that makes me want to go out and riot.
Yes, I presume the thinking is, hand out big sentences now to discourage any more misbehaviour from would-be-rioters in the short term, then deal with the inevitable appeals and reduce the sentences after that process when everything has calmed down already.
 

jmsprovan

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And here I thought the UK as depicted in V for Vendetta was just made up. Obviously it's not, you put people in prison for writing about, not committing, riots. The bare thought of having my civil liberties and human rights taken away like that makes me want to go out and riot.
We also put people in prison for "writing about, not committing" terrorism. Same legislation. I don't think many people would argue with putting people in jail for egging on terrorist attacks online.
 
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Heathrow

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Gah! This is an ugly scene.

Croydon Riot (ITN)

Hope the rider got away safe and got his scooter back. I expect we will find out in a couple of days.

* * *

And here I thought the UK as depicted in V for Vendetta was just made up. Obviously it's not, you put people in prison for writing about, not committing, riots. The bare thought of having my civil liberties and human rights taken away like that makes me want to go out and riot.
Freedom of speach, surely does not cover any incitement
to commit any crime, especially during violent social disorder.

Yes, I presume the thinking is, hand out big sentences now to discourage any more misbehaviour from would-be-rioters in the short term, then deal with the inevitable appeals and reduce the sentences after that process when everything has calmed down already.
Yes, that's about the size of it.

We also put people in prison for "writing about, not committing" terrorism. Same legislation. I don't think many people would argue with putting people in jail for egging on terrorist attacks online.
Had not thought about it like that, but yes good point.
(Still think the sentence length will be appealed down a bit.)

* * *

And this from Ming-the-Messenger:

BBC News - Ming Campbell warns MPs to avoid riot sentencing debate

BBC News said:
Politicians should neither "cheer nor boo" sentences given to those involved in riots in England, ex-Lib Dem leader Sir Menzies Campbell has said.

Any attempt by MPs to influence judges' decisions was "not consistent with the rule of law", he told the BBC.

Some campaigners have queried whether certain sentences have been too harsh.

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Ming says to his politicial colleagues, no booing or hissing and STFU.

:lol:
 

AiR

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Freedom of speach, surely does not cover any incitement to commit any crime, especially during violent social disorder.
Your definition of freedom differs greatly from mine.

We also put people in prison for "writing about, not committing" terrorism. Same legislation. I don't think many people would argue with putting people in jail for egging on terrorist attacks online.
Perhaps not many in the repressive state of Britain, but in places with actual freedom, many would. I saw many people write online that Anders Bering Breiviks attack on the young social democrats "served them right". I have met people who have said this to my face as well. I disagree with what they're saying, but will die for their right to say so.
 
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jmsprovan

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Perhaps not many in the repressive state of Britain, but in places with actual freedom, many would. I saw many people write online that Anders Bering Breiviks attack on the young social democrats "served them right". I have met people who have said this to my face as well. I disagree with what they're saying, but will die for their right to say so.
Places with actual freedom where demonstrations are put down with tear gas and water cannon, right.
 

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That would be the UK you're talking about, Swedish police do not have water cannons. The only one they had was decommissioned in 1972.
 

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That would be the UK you're talking about, Swedish police do not have water cannons.
British police don't use water canons, even during severe rioting like this, as evidenced recently. Never have in mainland Britain. They're only used by British police against Irish folk butthurt about the union.
 

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Then I don't understand jmsprovan's post.
 
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