Loose Change - A 9/11 Video

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God, why does my government support Isreal like they do? So ridiculous. After the second World War we say:

"Oh lets just make a country and put it right on top of land people have been living on for hundreds of years."

"Hey, you know what would be even better Dick? Put people there that would create an inevitably violent clash of culture and religion. They don't need a country you say, they already have homes? Why the hell should we do that you ask? Well for no reason other than I read an old book that said some of them lived around there once 1000 years ago."

Then we support them by giving them billions of dollars a year for weapons and still they never get anywhere. At least with all that help, put down some resistance. But no. Then the U.S. citizen gets villainized and attacked because of some arrogant bureaucrats 60 years ago thought it'd be a nice thing for the U.N. to do.
 

jeffy777

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CanadianLoonie said:
The Romans?
Well, they did seige Jerusalem in 70 AD, which was pretty devastating (temple burnt, many slaughtered, etc), but the Babylonians attacked and plundered it in the 500s BC (exact date escapes me at the moment) wehn the original temple was destroyed and many of the Jews were taken captive to Babylon. Then they were allowed to rebuild under the authroity of Kind Darius of the Medes. And other skirmishes before and after that, so there's a long history of hostility there.
 

Roland

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The thing with these kind of situations is that there are a million diffrent parameters. Conspirancy theorists take just a couple of those that do not SEEM to fit the general consensus. The human brain works in the way that it simplifies things to make them understandable, because the worst thing that could happen to the brain is: not understandig. This is used in almost all kinds of persuation: in media, in politics, and in consiracy theories.

If a fact in any theory seems out of place, the simple anwser is that the theory is wrong. That is just how we humans think/work. The producer of this film has, as far as i know, no actual expert knowledge. he just takes one out of these millons of parameters in for instance an explotion and says it is out of place, and disputes the whole theory. How can he possibly know what really happens in an explotion if he is not a scientis whit expert knowledge on the area. The anwser is that he can't.

I actually welcome argumentation and critisism of governments an generally everything actually. It gets us closer to the truth. But what really scares me is that people are willing to beleive things like this blindly and just as blindly ignore the facts on the oppisite side.

This is always the case with critisism on the bush andministration and bush himself. everyone is already in the mood that Bush is bad/stupid/currupt and if something that is strange comes up in whatever issue it "proves" that bush is bad/stupid/currupt!

Think for your self, do not let others think for u, is basically what i'm saying. That applies on everything! ;)
 

Firecat

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Mischief007 said:
Firecat
Read the links and it doesn't surprise since there are spies everywhere. What was your point behind the postings? I have a hard time trying to find a point to this.

Zenkidori explained part of it. The other aspect is whether Israel had advance knowledge of the attack, and allowed it to happen.

It's not just a matter of spying. Israel also has a history of false flag operations.

Like their attack on an american ship...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USS_Liberty_incident

or their plan to blow up american and british targets in egypt and blame it on the egyptions...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lavon_affair

And of course mossad agents have been caught with fake canadian passports (a while back) and more recently, trying to obtain new zealand passports illegally.

It is also believed that Israel had advance knowledge of the attack on a marine barracks in lebanon that killed more than 200 american soldiers.
 

zenkidori

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Roland said:
But what really scares me is that people are willing to beleive things like this blindly and just as blindly ignore the facts on the oppisite side.
Just for the sake of argument, aren't you doing the same thing? Just believing a different person?
 

Roland

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zenkidori said:
Roland said:
But what really scares me is that people are willing to beleive things like this blindly and just as blindly ignore the facts on the oppisite side.
Just for the sake of argument, aren't you doing the same thing? Just believing a different person?
I don't really understand how u got that from what i wrote, but anyways. That is most definitly not what i'm doing, i'm just saying that just because someone/something is critizising something does not mean it's true.

Sure there are a lot of strange circumstances arround 9/11 but that does not mean that i can take a camera and show some dissputing evidence and say that bush is really a bad president who lies to the people...

I do not claim to know what happend and what did not, i'm just trying to create a balance and a bit of perspective.
 

Maxi

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I call bullshit. Seems so conspiracy theorist.

The twin towers collaps seems viable, but the pentagon seems a bit off.
 

Firecat

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zenkidori said:
the DOD has released the "secret" video of the plane hitting the pentagon, anyone seen it?
I was under the impression that it was the same few frames that have been around the net for some time and this was just the pentagon "officially" releasing something.

I do have this feeling that the pentagon has more video. The idea that these few poor quality frames are all that exist, is just something I don't buy. It's the pentagon for crying out loud, they must have better surveillance.
 

hokiethang

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Firecat said:
zenkidori said:
the DOD has released the "secret" video of the plane hitting the pentagon, anyone seen it?
I was under the impression that it was the same few frames that have been around the net for some time and this was just the pentagon "officially" releasing something.

I do have this feeling that the pentagon has more video. The idea that these few poor quality frames are all that exist, is just something I don't buy. It's the pentagon for crying out loud, they must have better surveillance.
Why would the pentagon watch the building itself though (actually the airspace just to the right of the building)? Most cameras are stationed in parking lots, watching the parking lot, or at gates, watching the gate... I really don't think the pentagon had the surveillance you think they did at the time this all happened. The last thing we were concerned about in 2001 was an attack on high profile buildings here in the US (I guess because the government was complacent in thinking terrorists were content in blowing up stuff outside the country... I don't know). Watching the air is best accomplished with radar not video. Nowadays much has changed and the protections around the Pentagon are likely much stronger.

I don't buy conspiracy theories that say something other than a plane hit the pentagon. American Airlines is missing a 757 from that day, as are the people that were on that 757. I don't buy that those people are still alive somewhere.

The video that was released was officially recorded as evidence in the Zacarias Mousaoui trial, and now that he's been sentenced, the video could be released. The video was shown on the major television networks IIRC. Look for the news stories about it, and they should have links to the video.
 

Firecat

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hokiethang said:
Why would the pentagon watch the building itself though (actually the airspace just to the right of the building)?
Maybe cameras inside the building?

You know what, I've probably just been watching way too much "24".....
 

zenkidori

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the stongest information to the contrary of conspiracy theorists is the matter of the missing people.

I do however, strongly believe that flight 93 was shot down. Many people, even the Russian president think this.
 

hokiethang

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zenkidori said:
the stongest information to the contrary of conspiracy theorists is the matter of the missing people.

I do however, strongly believe that flight 93 was shot down. Many people, even the Russian president think this.
Right, because when it comes to information about the hijacking of an American aircraft over American soil (and subsequent reaction to said hijacking), the first person i'll believe is the president of a foreign country... More seriously though, I don't really care about the Flight 93 conspiracy, because either way, what had to be done was done to save further lives on the ground. If the Air Force had to shoot the plane down to prevent another attack on another symbol of America, and protect more American lives, that's fine. If the events went as they were reported, it's definitely a more heartwarming, and patriotic story, but instead of the Air Force protecting Americans, its other Americans, who were more concerned with the safety of people they likely never met than their own safety.

I'm however more inclined to believe the phone calls (which were received by family members, not the government) than some idea that a military aircraft shot the plane down. I'm more inclined to believe that on that terrible day in American history, that the passengers of Flight 93 were actually heroes instead of victims. That's how their families would want them remembered, and how they themselves (according to what has been determined from phone call records) would rather have history remember them.

I just find the people that say that 9/11 was a complete conspiracy to be horrible excuses for human beings. By saying that the government fired a missile into their own command center, or purposely killed 3700+ people in NY, is preposterous. Sure there are still questions surrounding the day, but the events of the day happened as they have been reported, there's no cover up or conspiracy like some people like to believe.

Firecat said:
Maybe cameras inside the building?

You know what, I've probably just been watching way too much "24".....
yeah, too much 24 could be the answer. In reality what would that show? A 757 crashing at 500MPH isn't going to show up on a surveillance camera in the outer ring hallway as an aircraft (more like a big explosion), as it's being ripped to shreds by tons of steel reinforced concrete. I'm sure the pentagon has such video, but I wouldn't see any need to release it, it's not going to give the public any more insight into the events of the day, and actually has a high likelihood of being very graphic, something most people wouldn't really want to see.
 

geoff_a_pult

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I would also ask people to apply Occam's Razor to this debate.
The fact that there were so few witnesses to the events, and the fact that they happened to top level government areas and underlined gaping problems in national security, means that unless the government completely stops acting like a government we will never definitively know what happened.
All the same, which seems more likely and plausible-
1) A group of known terrorists who hate America and have attacked America in the past learned to fly planes fairly well, hijacked a plane, and flew it into a building. They then claim responsibility for the attacks.

2) The government, or some other military organization decided to fake an attack on the government headquarters, attacked with missile and destroyed several planes and killed all the passengers of those planes, faked the scene to look like a plane crash, then successfully stopped any information from escaping about the planning and execution of said acts.

The way I look at it, the second explanation requires several things from the government (enough people getting to high places in the government while being evil enough to cause the murder of hundreds of Americans; the ability to successfully supress information completely, etc.) that they have never displayed before. It also needs a motive other than the government wanting justification to do something, because the administration has clearly shown that they don't give a damn about public opinion or justifying their actions.

The first explanation only requires some terrorists not to be lying.
 

Firecat

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It depends how you frame it, the scenarios as you wrote them are very leading....

On the same hand I could rewrite the first scenario as:-

1.) A group of 19 men organized in several countries, created an elaborate plan undetected by all intelligence agencies and carried out a precise attack on infrastructure in the United States. All financed by a man living in a cave.


That said, I've mentioned before that I don't really buy most of the conspiracy theories out there. We do know that intelligence agencies in this country has some type of knowledge of an impending attack, they likely just dismissed it as nonsence (as opposed to malice). And I do believe that the perpetrators of the attacks had some kind of assistance from foreign governments and/or other intelligence agencies (from other countries) has knowledge of the attack and withheld it.
 
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