Massive crash at Nordschleife during Touristenfahrten & thoughts about it

[Spectre]

There's no law requiring everything be in both English and French here. Certain signage (such as anything on federally-administered land such as airports, national parks and whatnot) must be bilingual in English and French, as well as consumer product labels. Federal government offices are required to have staff who can address people in whichever language they prefer (which isn't really a big issue, to be honest) Apart from Quebec, there is no requirement for anything else to be bilingual. Only the ignorant rednecks here in Alberta make any kind of a fuss about it, despite the fact we have one of the largest francophone communities in Canada.

Also, the joke's very likely on you soon - how long will it be before you see mandated Spanish/English bilingualism in Texas?

Not any time soon, because we don't have an overly vocal minority claiming that people are discriminating against them because of their language, acting more French than the French, demanding independence because of it, and then voting it down when the rest of the country gets tired of it and offers to let them go away, yet demanding that their dying language be placed on an equal footing with the majority.

That would be California you are thinking of. Los Angeles, for example, is known to have more Mexican citizens than in any city in the world short of Mexico City itself.

Also, yes, you do have food labelling laws and many other similar laws and regulations requiring bilingual labelling. I was considering selling a product I had developed in Canada, but there's not a chance in Hell that I'm ever going to label any product I make in French. FTGDF.

For reference:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Official_bilingualism_in_Canada
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charter_of_the_French_Language

Trivia: I cleaned out a bar with a bunch of my friends in Montreal back in 99 or so. Les Quebe?ois can't fight for crap - though they sure want to start shit with Anglophones and they outnumbered us about 5:1. They didn't think any of us understood French, too bad they were wrong.

 

[Eunos_Cosmo]

Going off topic a bit here...

 

[MattD1zzl3]

Dont know why they blame the top gear jaguar segment, they used no less than 3 scenes in that ~15 minute film to demonstrate people injured at the track. My opinion? People can die or be hurt in motorsports and that is ok.

 

[Spectre]

By the way, dug up the numbers for SAFER (for those that don't know, in this context SAFER is an acronym and I'm not providing special emphasis) barrier turnkey costs. Including installation it's only about $1M USD per mile. Assuming the longest possible course layout of the ring (16.123 miles), and that that $1M is just per linear mile and not both sides of a roadway, the cost to completely reline the Ring with SAFER tech is a mere $32.3M USD or ?24.4 million. Even if you assume 100% inflation you're still looking at less than ?50 mil for a barrier that takes just minutes to replace and doesn't kill people that hit it.

I believe that stupid amusement park cost ?300 million or so? Yeah, they don't have the excuse of "we have no money". And the first 24 people that crash there and aren't disabled for life will pay for the install by the saving of money that the German government won't have to pay out in healthcare or welfare support.

 

[MadCat360]

Tire walls are nearly as good as the SAFER and are much cheaper. If they didn't want to shell out for the latest and greatest I'm sure it wouldn't be too difficult to take some old tires off people's hands. Definitely far better than ARMCO.

The reason why SAFER is so widely touted is because the oval guys can't use tires for various reasons. They grab cars that scrape, and fly around when hit. Fine for a road course with 20+ feet of runoff, not so great at Daytona.

They're so cheap it's a wonder why road courses aren't completely covered in them. One of the Spec Miata drivers from this past weekend at Laguna Seca nearly died crashing in turn 9 against solid concrete. One of the safest road courses in the country and yet it doesn't have cushies all the way round.

 

[Spectre]

As you say tire walls would be better than ARMCO as well - but the same issues the oval course guys have with tire walls also apply to motorcyclists. Other than straight-in impacts they're not great for us two wheel guys. Still be better than the giant cheese grater known as ARMCO, though.

Other issues:
If a tire wall gets knocked apart, it can take some time to repair or reassemble the tire stacks.
Any time it rains you have to send a crew out to dismantle the walls and pour out all of the water or you end up with enormous clouds of mosquitos.

 

[MadCat360]

Any time it rains you have to send a crew out to dismantle the walls and pour out all of the water or you end up with enormous clouds of mosquitos.

They don't have drills? Every tire wall I've seen has holes in them to let the water out, either from purposely drilling them or from the bolts that hold the tires on top of one another.

 

[Spectre]

They don't have drills? Every tire wall I've seen has holes in them to let the water out, either from purposely drilling them or from the bolts that hold the tires on top of one another.

Yup, and that's been done at many tracks but unfortunately, it never gets all the water out and you end up with mosquitos. Unless you want to spray for them and that's frowned on in many areas (which is part of why those tire barriers aren't up everywhere).

 

[rootrider]

Hence the automated system. Also, I don't think it would be too much to ask for visitors to learn at least a little German to understand safety calls.

I don't think it's too much to ask to repeat a safety message in English after it is announced in German. If it's important, the effort should be made.

 

[Spectre]

I don't think it's too much to ask to repeat a safety message in English after it is announced in German. If it's important, the effort should be made.

Either way, it's little effort, especially with an automated or semi-automated system. I'd be fine with German only or German and English.

 

[D-Fence]

Dont know why they blame the top gear jaguar segment, they used no less than 3 scenes in that ~15 minute film to demonstrate people injured at the track. My opinion? People can die or be hurt in motorsports and that is ok.

But the Touristenfahrten are not a trackday, it is treated like a normal b-road, so people should not behave like on a trackday, besides the fact that they don't have the safety equipment like helmets and rollcages people on trackdays have.

 

[EyeMWing]

But the Touristenfahrten are not a trackday, it is treated like a normal b-road, so people should not behave like on a trackday, besides the fact that they don't have the safety equipment like helmets and rollcages people on trackdays have.

Yes. It's treated like a normal b-road... Which for some reason has banks and curbing. Pretending it's a normal road is fun, but is ultimately detrimental to its own cause (because it leads to things like this accident, where roadworks that would be perfectly fine on a b-road tried their very hardest to kill people)

Personally, I wouldn't mind seeing helmets become a requirement. Renting brain buckets by the hour wouldn't be too difficult to manage. Rules similar to SCCA autocross (Snell or FIA rating, motorcycle or auto racing styles) would provide sufficient protection, give the driver a reminder "This is a racetrack, you idiot" and make the helmets accessible and common enough that the rental isn't a lock-in.

You won't find cages mandated very much outside of actual wheel-to-wheel racing.

 

[AiR]

It's a North American joke. Canada is forced-bilingual; even though French speakers (and they almost all speak English just fine) are a declining minority, the laws in Canada *require* everything to be in French and English.

Like Finland
It was a bit sloppy to loose our eastern part to Russia after 600 years. Sneaky russians, stealing our lands.

 

[D-Fence]

Yes. It's treated like a normal b-road... Which for some reason has banks and curbing. Pretending it's a normal road is fun, but is ultimately detrimental to its own cause (because it leads to things like this accident, where roadworks that would be perfectly fine on a b-road tried their very hardest to kill people)

These roadworks were borderline legal on normal roads already, a normal b-road here is 100km/h, so I think even there the warning sign should have been further out. And guys, this Canada stuff is interesting, but completely offtopic.....

The helmet idea won't work, because they won't be able to let normal people on it any more as it certainly wouldn't count as a b-road if you were forced to rent a helmet.

Jump to 9:45. In the background you can see the Ringtaxi completely slamming into the Corvette. Ringtaxi drivers claimed they were not too fast, I wonder why everyone else managed to slow down in time.......they come flying flatout. Also, the Corvette guy will jump with joy now because he can prove he didn't cause this (which the Ringtaxis said he did)

 

[Dr_Grip]

The helmet idea won't work, because they won't be able to let normal people on it any more as it certainly wouldn't count as a b-road if you were forced to rent a helmet.

IIRC if they declare it a racetrack, you won't be able to go on there with a normally-insured car or even without some kind of racing driver's license. D-Fence, do you know any details?

 

[Dino]

If classified as anything other than a private "normal" road, the Nordschleife would close down immediatly, if only for the 1930's safety standards.
That's why you're not allowed to race of even film for fear of increasing speed. Crashes just become part of the equation and get sweeped under the rug. For good reason.

More to the point, the N?rburgring GmbH has less than no money. The amusement park and shopping stuff was all built with government money, and thought up by people better at sales than business. Happens all the time, too bad it had to strike here and with such force. The Nordschleife is a cash cow, and as any 2nd year business student will tell you, cash cows require minimal invest, enough for upkeep. That's what they are doing. Investing money for parking, information services etc. would be nice of them, but strickly speaking unwarranted. Unless they choose a long-term strategy, of course, but let's keep things realistic.

Please also check out the initiatives to help save the Ring for petrolheads:
http://savethering.org/

 

[D-Fence]

Sure. Every insurance excludes "racetrack use or participating in events aimed at achieving the maximum speed of your car"

German:

A.2.9.2 Kein Versicherungsschutz besteht f?r Sch?den, die bei der Beteiligung an
Fahrtveranstaltungen entstehen, bei denen es auf die Erzielung einer
H?chstgeschwindigkeit ankommt. Dies gilt auch f?r dazugeh?rige
?bungsfahrten.

Der Ausschluss in ? 2 b Abs. 3 AKB betrifft insoweit nur Fahrten im Rahmen einer Veranstaltung, deren Charakter dadurch gepr?gt wird, dass eine m?glichst hohe Geschwindigkeit erreicht wird und danach eine Platzierung der Teilnehmer erfolgt.

So basically, as soon as it is determined that you are on a racetrack, with the goal to achieve high speed or quickest time you are done. A dangerous aspect of this is Touristenfahrten in Hockenheim or the N?rburgring GP Track, I am not sure the B-Road listing works there....

BTW, it is not a "Einbahn Landstra?e mit Maut" but a "Einbahn Kraftfahrstra?e mit Mautpflicht" to circumvent the 100km/h limit

Insurances generally try to go for "Grobe Fahrl?ssigkeit", meaning you caused the accident by acting irresponsible....

 

[prizrak]

Sure. Every insurance excludes "racetrack use or participating in events aimed at achieving the maximum speed of your car"

German:






So basically, as soon as it is determined that you are on a racetrack, with the goal to achieve high speed or quickest time you are done. A dangerous aspect of this is Touristenfahrten in Hockenheim or the N?rburgring GP Track, I am not sure the B-Road listing works there....

BTW, it is not a "Einbahn Landstra?e mit Maut" but a "Einbahn Kraftfahrstra?e mit Mautpflicht" to circumvent the 100km/h limit

Insurances generally try to go for "Grobe Fahrl?ssigkeit", meaning you caused the accident by acting irresponsible....

Then a crash on a German unrestricted Autobahn could be considered under that particular statute. Since there is no limit one could argue that you go there to achieve maximum speed in your car (since clearly you CAN do it).

 

[AiR]

I took out my terms today (because I'm getting money back from the insurance company after my door incident) and they have a very broad term, "not valid for damage caused during racing [...] or similar within a fenced off racing area or on roads intended for such usage, or streetracing or track racing".

No racing in racing areas, and no track racing, and no road racing or driving on roads intended for racing. Pretty much covers it.
No Nordschleifeing for me! Given the understeer of the Astra that's probably a good thing...

I still like my suggestion of beacons. Call them "traffic lights" if someone points to them and says "hey, race track-thingys".

 

[Dr_Grip]

Then a crash on a German unrestricted Autobahn could be considered under that particular statute. Since there is no limit one could argue that you go there to achieve maximum speed in your car (since clearly you CAN do it).

You obviously got your Autobahn knowledge from Top Gear

While there is no speed limit on parts the Autobahn, there is a "Richtgeschwindigkeit" ("recommanded speed") of 130kph. If you crash at a higher speed and speed is determined as one of the reasons for the crash (which happens in most cases) you will be declared at last partly at fault and your insurance company will only pick up parts of the bill (if they pay anything), depending on your contract.

I took out my terms today (because I'm getting money back from the insurance company after my door incident) and they have a very broad term, "not valid for damage caused during racing [...] or similar within a fenced off racing area or on roads intended for such usage, or streetracing or track racing".

That's why racing is forbidden on Touristenfahrten days and they even allow RVs and coaches on there. So that your insurance can not get you by the balls, because in legal terms, the 'Ring is just an oddly-shaped one-way road, not a racetrack.
If they'd exclude "unlimited one-way toll roads" like many rental agencys do, that would be another thing.