Massive Israeili strike on Gaza

[Wrath]

I have to say something about it from my point of you, an israeli.

The attack on gaza was a respond towards the rockects, mortars, missiles and others that were fired from gaza.
We DO NOT want any cvilians hurt in gaza, but hamas hides behind human population : It's armories stashed near cvilians buildings, they fight from the population because they know we don't fire at innocennts. there servel strikes which were stopped because cvilians were around or hamas used them as human shiled.

We are not doing a genocide, we are not trying to kill palestinains just because they are, it's not a race issue. it's simple : the life of the people in the south turned to hell every day when they fire (8 years ago). I can't discribe it in words but over one million citizens of Israel are in the line of fire.
THIS IS UNACCEPTABLE, it's something that we won't take and won't agree and really won't sit with our hands in the pockets.

The cease fire "Agreement" :
The two days before the agreement and the two days after it starts hamas and other terror organizations have launched over 300 rockets !!!
They broke the cease fire on DAY ONE! and kept broking it.
The claim that we broke it first is nonsense.

Hamas don't recognize Israel, don't want to make peace and its ideas are really against Israel (hamas is an fundamental fanatic muslem organization and a militant one, their exsitents is to fight not to make peace).
They are a murderes and the things they have done to us is unforgiven and unforgetable.

I'll tell you a story from the recents days : A school was bobmarded by hamas, over tow kindergartens were also bombarded by hamas.
luckly there were no kids since there is no schools or kindergartens these days becasue of the strike.

We are not targeting inncocents, we never did. Its sad that inncocents were killed.
We warn cvilians before a strike , we called them and say there is about to be a strike.
We try that the number of cvilians hit will be zero or atleast really low.

We don't like wars, we want peace , a true peace.

 

[Firecat]

I have to say something about it from my point of you, an israeli.

The attack on gaza was a respond towards the rockects, mortars, missiles and others that were fired from gaza.
We DO NOT want any cvilians hurt in gaza, but hamas hides behind human population : It's armories stashed near cvilians buildings, they fight from the population because they know we don't fire at innocennts. there servel strikes which were stopped because cvilians were around or hamas used them as human shiled.

This argument is used a lot, so let's dig a little deeper. Hamas is a part of Gaza society. Police stations, government buildings etc are ALWAYS near civilian buildings. This is true for probably every country in the world. Plus it's such a densely populated area.

 

[nomix]

Wrath, just a question, why has there not been a recognition from Israel of the right of the Palestinian people to establish an independent state? Further, why are their settlers in Palestinian land?

 

[klankymen]

I have an idea. How about Israel stop occupying palestinian territory?
The norwegians wasnt very happy about the germans occupying Norway from 1940-1945, and it's obvious Hamas and others feel the same about Israel occupying their territory.
I also find it funny that Israel and the US president label organisations fighting to end the occupation of their territory as terrorists.

I hear this argument so often. And by the same logic, I could claim that it's OK for Germans to launch terrorist attacks at France, because Lothringen and Alsace are German territory. And Austrian extremists should shoot rockets into Italy, because South Tyrol is Austrian territory.

 

[nomix]

Then again, there is no French blocade of Germany.

 

[Plissken]

Hamas don't recognize Israel, don't want to make peace and its ideas are really against Israel (hamas is an fundamental fanatic muslem organization and a militant one, their exsitents is to fight not to make peace).
They are a murderes and the things they have done to us is unforgiven and unforgetable.

We don't like wars, we want peace , a true peace.

Replace Hamas with Israel. Both are, get this, democratically elected representatives of their people. Damn those Palestinians for electing the wrong guy!

Hamas don't want peace. The Israeli government doesn't want peace. Because between them, they stay in power. Peace means Hamas are out of a job. Peace means many Israeli politicians are out of a job. Peace means the US doesn't get money for arms and a live testing ground. Peace means Israel has to figure out how to live with its neighbours without the protection of their bigger brother. Peace means Arab countries have to look after the Palestinians instead of using them as an excuse against the Wicked West.

It is the same mob racket that happened in Northern Ireland. War was fought because it kept a bunch of people employed in "the struggle". Eventually, they got old and wised up. They realised that there was noone following them, all the kids wanted to do was live without the threat of kneecapping or car bombs. It forced them to the negotiating table and now they argue with words and not bullets.

Lucky for Israel and Palestine that won't happen, because they've successfully managed to radicalise their opposition so they can keep this one going forever.

 

[jetsetter]

Peace means the US doesn't get money for arms and a live testing ground.

Excuse me? The United States has given much more than it has received. As for testing ground, that would be a negative.

 

[LeVeL]

Replace Hamas with Israel. Both are, get this, democratically elected representatives of their people. Damn those Palestinians for electing the wrong guy!

Hamas don't want peace. The Israeli government doesn't want peace. Because between them, they stay in power. Peace means Hamas are out of a job. Peace means many Israeli politicians are out of a job. Peace means the US doesn't get money for arms and a live testing ground. Peace means Israel has to figure out how to live with its neighbours without the protection of their bigger brother. Peace means Arab countries have to look after the Palestinians instead of using them as an excuse against the Wicked West.

It is the same mob racket that happened in Northern Ireland. War was fought because it kept a bunch of people employed in "the struggle". Eventually, they got old and wised up. They realised that there was noone following them, all the kids wanted to do was live without the threat of kneecapping or car bombs. It forced them to the negotiating table and now they argue with words and not bullets.

Lucky for Israel and Palestine that won't happen, because they've successfully managed to radicalise their opposition so they can keep this one going forever.

What exactly did you smoke prior to posting that?

 

[Plissken]

What exactly did you smoke prior to posting that?

Thats right fella, shoot the messenger, because it means you never have to dispute the message.

 

[nomix]

Excuse me? The United States has given much more than it has received. As for testing ground, that would be a negative.

Negative on the money, a sure positive on the testing ground.

The west has looked keenly on for decades to see how their gear worked out against the gear from East.

At least Yom Kippur made a lot of people take a breath of ease.

Two Israeli Centurions stopped a Syrian armoured batalion with T-54/55s.

Enough about that.

 

[Steve Levin]

Wrath, just a question, why has there not been a recognition from Israel of the right of the Palestinian people to establish an independent state? Further, why are their settlers in Palestinian land?

From 1973, Israel has conceeded a massive amount of territory. The Sinai, much of Gaza, most of the West Bank. And allowed the Palestinian Authority to be formed and manage land. That is a very non-trivial amount of concessions made by Israel. Remember those lands were taken after Israel was attacked in two different wars -- one of which was intentionally launched on the holiest day of Judaism, Yom Kippur, to gain the maximum possible surprise and advantage.

Is that everything that Hamas claims they want? No, but it certainly seems reasonable as a basis for lasting peace.

Just so we're clear, Israel never invaded the West Bank and Gaza, or the Sinai. They went in after other countries launched wars upon them. Twice.

Israel would benefit by a prosperous and happy Gaza. It costs a lot to defend a hostile border. It's not good to have rockets falling on your own land, either.

But the cold, hard truth is that as you dig into what Hamas wants, ultimately, it is no peace or a prosperous Gaza, it is the end of Israel. Therefore, they continuously set requirements that lack compromise (such as the division of Jerusalem as a requirement for permanent peace), and it is to their benefit to keep Gaza under siege and Arabs angry at Israel.

Sitting back and allowing peace to set it, and aid to flow to Gaza to build it and make it pretty would reduce the hatred of Israel. They don't want that.

So everything boils down to a simple question: why can the attacks from Gaza simply not stop? If rockets hadn't been launched from Gaza every 10 minutes, Israel would not have needed to act.

Steve

 

[Plissken]

From 1973, Israel has conceeded a massive amount of territory. The Sinai, much of Gaza, most of the West Bank.

Problem is, it wasn't all of the land they stole in 1967.

I'd like, at this point, to give an especial thanks to the anonymous negrepper who left, simply "Suck bag". Hats off, what a Master Debater you are, sir.

 

[jetsetter]

Negative on the money, a sure positive on the testing ground.

Enough about that.

Don't think so.

The west has looked keenly on for decades to see how their gear worked out against the gear from East.

At least Yom Kippur made a lot of people take a breath of ease.

Two Israeli Centurions stopped a Syrian armoured batalion with T-54/55s.

Of course they observed the outcome but keeping Israel around and not dealing with violence just because they want to observed effectiveness, no that is not true.


"Enough about that."

 

[Firecat]

Just so we're clear, Israel never invaded the West Bank and Gaza, or the Sinai. They went in after other countries launched wars upon them. Twice.


Steve

Israel invaded Gaza (and Sinai) in the 50s and the '67 war was "pre-emptive" and started by Israel. Just to be clear.

 

[Steve Levin]

Israel invaded Gaza (and Sinai) in the 50s and the '67 war was "pre-emptive" and started by Israel. Just to be clear.

Just to be even clearer, Israeli "permanent" occupation of Gaza was not until after the 1967 war.

And to shine a clear light on the 'pre-emptive strike' had the Egyptian govenment not placed almost 100,000 troops and over a thousand tanks on the border Israel might not have felt that a massive invasion was imminent.

Steve

 

[Firecat]

You said they never invaded Gaza or Sinai, that was incorrect. I was just pointing that out. Yes, the "occupation" started in '67. I'm not disputing that.

It's not unusual to move troops etc. as a show of force or to increase pressure. This is a tactic used by the United States (and other nations) regularly. I don't believe that Nasser wanted to go to war, and had Israel not struck first...I don't think Egypt would have attacked.

But this really isn't relevant to the situation at hand. If we care too much about the past, then there is no way this conflict will be resolved in the present/future.

 

[nomix]

So everything boils down to a simple question: why can the attacks from Gaza simply not stop? If rockets hadn't been launched from Gaza every 10 minutes, Israel would not have needed to act.

Steve

And if there had not been a occupation, there would be no rockets. Right now, their hitting targets 45 kilometers in Israel, so they can't be said to have succeeded.

Of course they observed the outcome but keeping Israel around and not dealing with violence just because they want to observed effectiveness, no that is not true.

No denying that, but there has without any doubts been numerous and important cooperations in development etcetera.

 

[Steve Levin]

And if there had not been a occupation, there would be no rockets. Right now, their hitting targets 45 kilometers in Israel, so they can't be said to have succeeded.

Let's stop "overglobalizing" this view. As many have said, all journeys start with a single step.

Israel has taken far more than a single step in the past decade. What have they gotten for all these steps? Nothing. Why should any further claims of "all we need is XYZ" be considered at all honest.

Let me pose this question. What would the entire Middle East lose by accepting UN Resolution 242 and publicly endorsing Israel's right to exist? Egypt did, of course, but they are reviled by other Arab nations for having done so.

Instead, what we get are interview after interview where there's always some conditional step that keeps that from happening, which sounds much more like the intention is to leave the door open for the destruction of Israel.

For those comments on "Egypt didn't really want to attack, etc., and Israel just should have held off" again, let me ask this: why is the same standard -- placing oneself in danger of being wiped out -- not being applied in Gaza today against Hamas? In other words, stop the attacks, destroy all the weapons, end all the violence, and simply trust in Israel to do the right thing over time? After all, the circumstances are far different -- The chances of Gaza being wiped out are far smaller than the chances of Egypt invading with 100,000 troops in 1967.

Let the violence stop, the weapons smuggling stop, and let the aid pour in and make Gaza a nice place.

Steve

 

[Jimi Hendrix]

What's Israel going to do with all those retarded, right-wing-extremists that live in illegal colonies? Maybe warn them and if they don't leave those places bomb the shit out of them?

 

[Wrath]

Wrath, just a question, why has there not been a recognition from Israel of the right of the Palestinian people to establish an independent state? Further, why are their settlers in Palestinian land?

There is a recognition.
Further then that there is an acceptence to retreat from the West Bank.

But, there is no palestinian leadership.
You have Mahamod Abas and Salam Fiad (Fatah) at the West Bank and Ismail Hania (Hamas) at Gaza. They are divided, they oppose eachother on many topics including this one.
You can't have two palestinian countries under two leadership.

The settlers issue is being taking care of. Like i said before, there are plans to retreat and to take the settlers back to the "Green Line".
But, they don't want to. Almost every evacuation is ended in violence.
We did leave Gaza, and we will leave the West Bank but in the right time.

"Replace Hamas with Israel. Both are, get this, democratically elected representatives of their people. Damn those Palestinians for electing the wrong guy! " Plissken.

You can't compare Israel to Hamas. Hamas is running by a religious ideology which deny our existents, and forming an fanatic country that all other religions are secound grade ones. Yes, Hamas was elected by the palestinain population, and yes we cry for it but thats their decision and they have to deal with it.

Hamas said no the the peace agreement that was suggested. he don't want to recognize us, he wants the entire land. It's hard to talk to them because they "live" on this fighiting if the fighting stops then hamas will have nothing.