Massive Israeili strike on Gaza

nomix

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Let's stop "overglobalizing" this view. As many have said, all journeys start with a single step.

Israel has taken far more than a single step in the past decade. What have they gotten for all these steps? Nothing.
Nothing? They no longer face the PLO as a threat, and that was all they could realisticly hope for. Lets not forget that Israel did it's job undermining Arafat in the 90s, shall we.

When the checkpoints and settlements continued, this was a torn in the side of the Palestinian people. To say that the Palestinian people got a good deal would be a grose overexageration.

The problem for the last decade or so has been that the Palestinians haven't gotten their freedom, and they must have freedom.

Why should any further claims of "all we need is XYZ" be considered at all honest.

Let me pose this question. What would the entire Middle East lose by accepting UN Resolution 242 and publicly endorsing Israel's right to exist? Egypt did, of course, but they are reviled by other Arab nations for having done so.
It's become a matter of principles. First Israel needs to ratify the resolutions they've broken, they need to accept a completely independent Palestinian state, and they need to remove all their settlers. The settlements are per definition a war crime.

Instead, what we get are interview after interview where there's always some conditional step that keeps that from happening, which sounds much more like the intention is to leave the door open for the destruction of Israel.
That is because in reality, apart from the formal state of the Palestinians, which hasn't made much difference, Israel has not done much.

They've done some things, but really, would any other nationality accept the offerings Israel has made? No.

For those comments on "Egypt didn't really want to attack, etc., and Israel just should have held off" again, let me ask this: why is the same standard -- placing oneself in danger of being wiped out -- not being applied in Gaza today against Hamas? In other words, stop the attacks, destroy all the weapons, end all the violence, and simply trust in Israel to do the right thing over time? After all, the circumstances are far different -- The chances of Gaza being wiped out are far smaller than the chances of Egypt invading with 100,000 troops in 1967.
The reason you can't apply the same logic is that one should not compare Israel to Hamas. They wouldn't like it themselves, so hey.

Who has the best possibilities to stop violence, Hamas or Israel? Hamas can't but Israel could. Stop violence, stop the checkpoints, stop the settlements and stop all discrimination, formal and otherwise, and the extremist would lose popular support.

What this war is doing, is to poor petrol on the bonfire lit by the extremist, to think otherwise is quite naive.

There is a recognition.
Further then that there is an acceptence to retreat from the West Bank.
There is no recognition of an independent Palestinian state.

The issue at hand is that Israel has a complete dominance of the Palestinian terretories. Arafat only had the power he needed as long as Israel granted it to him. This undermined his authority, and it undermined the complete peace process.

But, there is no palestinian leadership.
You have Mahamod Abas and Salam Fiad (Fatah) at the West Bank and Ismail Hania (Hamas) at Gaza. They are divided, they oppose eachother on many topics including this one.
You can't have two palestinian countries under two leadership.
Which is only one reason why there's a need for a new election. And again, the war is not making that more likely.

The settlers issue is being taking care of. Like i said before, there are plans to retreat and to take the settlers back to the "Green Line".
But, they don't want to. Almost every evacuation is ended in violence.
We did leave Gaza, and we will leave the West Bank but in the right time.
It needs to happen faster. Let's not forget that the settlements are illegal and a torn in the side of the people of Palestine. It's a key issue, and there is no time for waiting.

I do however recongize that it's a brave step to take, it's not a popular choice, but it's one that can not be ignored. It must happen, as quickly as possible.

You can't compare Israel to Hamas. Hamas is running by a religious ideology which deny our existents, and forming an fanatic country that all other religions are secound grade ones. Yes, Hamas was elected by the palestinain population, and yes we cry for it but thats their decision and they have to deal with it.
It's true that Hamas is extremist. There are of course a couple of unproportionally powerful small extremist parties in Israel, but that's nothing to compare, I agree on that point.

But, and this is a point of interest, Hamas didn't go to the elections with the intention of 'pushing the jews on the sea', they did it with a reform programe, which to a large extent has been carried out.

I won't call them good, cause they're not. But it is important to keep a rational and factual view of them.

Make no mistake, I don't like them. But they were democraticly elected.

Hamas said no the the peace agreement that was suggested. he don't want to recognize us, he wants the entire land. It's hard to talk to them because they "live" on this fighiting if the fighting stops then hamas will have nothing.
Correct.

The ongoing action in Gaza is a double edged sword. No state can accept terrorism, and Hamas has commited acts of terrorism with their Qassam rockets.

But in protecting their people, Israel is making things worse. They are making sure that the extremist do not lose popular support, but gain it.

It happened with Hezbollah, and it will happen with Hamas.

That's the sad truth.
 

Plissken

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In other words, Wrath "It's all their fault, we ain't done nuffin'".
 

Wrath

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In other words, Wrath "It's all their fault, we ain't done nuffin'".
I didn't say that.
You misunderstood what i said.

Both sides are the blame for the violence but you have to notice between the two sides. What causing them to act like that.
We act on a strong belief that we need to stop this rocket attacks on the south. What would you feel if your town was under fire every day?

I don't want dead children at Israel nor Gaza, but firing into Israel, firing to kill cvilians on purpose is a war crime.
I didn't see any real cover from the media about it, they are all kinda buiest about this topic. I think that some are looking at this conflict in a wrong point
of view :
There some who thinks this is a clonial battle, which has a good side and a bad side. The good must be the weak and they are against the bad guys which are the strong.
It's sound like a start for a movie. This is the wrong point of view . Why ?

1. We don't wish to rule the Palestinians
2. We don't wish to rule their lands.
3. Not always the weak side is the good side.
4. This is not a movie. this conflict is way deeper than you think.

I think that if you will go more deeper you will find things to be very surprising.
 

Plissken

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Both sides are the blame for the violence but you have to notice between the two sides. What causing them to act like that.
We act on a strong belief that we need to stop this rocket attacks on the south. What would you feel if your town was under fire every day?

I don't want dead children at Israel nor Gaza, but firing into Israel, firing to kill cvilians on purpose is a war crime.
Agreed. So why are you going after three blokes with a bunch of homemade rockets with air strikes and infantry? Why are you going after teenagers throwing rocks with with tanks?

What possible kind of tactic is that? It is akin to fixing a leaking sink by burning down the house.

I didn't see any real cover from the media about it, they are all kinda buiest about this topic. I think that some are looking at this conflict in a wrong point
of view :
As I said, your other post blamed the Palestinians. Now you blame the media.

1. We don't wish to rule the Palestinians
2. We don't wish to rule their lands.
Really? Honestly? Then stop restricting their movements. And pull back from the lands you took over in 1967.

I think that if you will go more deeper you will find things to be very surprising.
Please, please don't patronise me. Just because I listen (and agree or disagree) to other peoples points of view doesn't mean I don't understand.

FWIW I agree with Israel defending itself from attack. I wholeheartedly DISAGREE with the way it does it. Because it won't ever, ever solve the problem.
 

Steve Levin

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Agreed. So why are you going after three blokes with a bunch of homemade rockets with air strikes and infantry? Why are you going after teenagers throwing rocks with with tanks?

What possible kind of tactic is that? It is akin to fixing a leaking sink by burning down the house.
What exactly would be a better way? Forcibly removing settlers and withdrawing from Gaza?
That didn't work.

Agreeing to a cease fire?
That didn't work.

Cutting water and power to Gaza when the cease fire was violated?
That didn't work.

Limited airstrikes to remind Hamas there are consequences to firing rockets?
That didn't work either.

Really? Honestly? Then stop restricting their movements. And pull back from the lands you took over in 1967.
Most of that has been done and has yielded nothing. We can't even get two or three years without fighting. Why would a complete withdrawal yield anything different? Why is absolute no compromise something you afford only to Palestine and not Israel?

Steve
 

tigger

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Why is absolute no compromise something you afford only to Palestine and not Israel?
Come on Steve, you know the history of Israel. For the last 60 years Israel has been trying to grind the Palestinians into the dirt. Directly and indirectly. Palestine elected a bunch of terrorists to run their 'government' because they are at war. They've got no sovereignty, no rights, no jobs and they're sick of it.

As far as I'm concerned this whole situation is Israel's fault. Their oppression of Palestinians is the reason why Hamas is in power now. Blowing Hamas to hell is only going to generate more insurgents, but it's not like you can negotiate with them anyway. This was the likely outcome all along.

Israel absolutely has a right to defend themselves. And if they had any interest in stopping future conflicts, they'd get their boot off the Palestinians neck.
 

D-Fence

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Oh great, looks like the Hezbollah is firing rockets from the Lebanon on Israel now too.......and Israel retaliates. This might get even nastier than it is now.
 

Wrath

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Agreed. So why are you going after three blokes with a bunch of homemade rockets with air strikes and infantry? Why are you going after teenagers throwing rocks with with tanks?

What possible kind of tactic is that? It is akin to fixing a leaking sink by burning down the house.



As I said, your other post blamed the Palestinians. Now you blame the media.



Really? Honestly? Then stop restricting their movements. And pull back from the lands you took over in 1967.



Please, please don't patronise me. Just because I listen (and agree or disagree) to other peoples points of view doesn't mean I don't understand.

FWIW I agree with Israel defending itself from attack. I wholeheartedly DISAGREE with the way it does it. Because it won't ever, ever solve the problem.

First , yes I blame the media for a lack of real coverage and really being one sided. It's not me who first say it, people in Europe said that the medie over there is really subjective and showing only palestinian side.

I don't patronise you, i respect your opinion and i respond to it.
If i were to patronise you i woldn't take a little of my time to respond it.
Or have any kind of conversation with you.

Let me correct you on this one. It's not "Three blocks with hommade rockets".
It's three blocks with Chinese Grads and Iranian weaponary. The "Hommade" weapons are the Qasssam which by now is very deadly weapon.
We go after them with Choppers because we are not going to enter deep into Gaza where the major of the population is. Thats where they are shooting their rockets and grads. Before they were use to shoot it from northern Gaza.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bHNk6eBw3ME&eurl=http://idfspokesperson.com/&feature=player_embedded

Heres a footage by IDF Spokesman which will show you where they are shooting from (Cvilians homes, buildings m Mosques and ETC). Using them as human shields.

By the way I heard from sources at Gaza and Israel that everytime Israel warns the palestianins from an up coming attack, Hamas is literally stops them from leaving their houses and threats them to harm them if they do.
Also, Hamsa prevents from the population of humanitarian supplies in Gaza.

You must understand something I nevermeant that things that I've said would sound like patronsing someone here. I don't do that kind of things.

The rockets that were fired into Israel from Lebanon were Iranian grads and an organization of Ahamed Gibril (Palestianin organization) fired those rockets.
Israel respond with artilarry fire, thats it.
 
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Ramy

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Nothing can ever justify hitting innocent civilians or even groups of men holding flimsy old rifles with sodium/potassium/depleted uranium or what ever the hell it is shells that israel is using. Not even those tin can rockets that barely scrape the road when they hit it.

Those rockets though are fired for a reason. When you live under siege and can't find your bare necessities and children are dying from lack of medical supplies human aggression and need for survival will make them do anything.



Even if israel wipes out hamas and all the children in their vicinity there will always be resistance movements that fight back any way they can, they are fighting for their land not just the gaza strip and west bank but the whole of the Palestinian occupied land.

israel isn't really liked in the region, most people know that israel does not have the right to exist. And I don't think it will ever find peace through aggression.

This conflict is religious and will continue forever until the end of days regardless of any peace treaty, cease fire, UN security council,or even arab league meeting.
 

Ramy

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Couldn't help but notice the complete lack of pictures of Hamas rockets being fired or Israelis getting killed. Way to cover only one side of the story.
How many israelis died or got injured ? is the damage or death toll comparable ?

If the situation was somehow miraculously reversed and those images where from israel how would the world and the USofA have reacted ?

If you saw your whole family impaled and blasted to the road how would you feel ?
 

Dogbert

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Couldn't help but notice the complete lack of pictures of Hamas rockets being fired or Israelis getting killed. Way to cover only one side of the story.
Oh great, looks like the Hezbollah is firing rockets from the Lebanon on Israel now too.......and Israel retaliates. This might get even nastier than it is now.
Looks like it's evened out.
 

Firecat

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It's three blocks with Chinese Grads and Iranian weaponary.

The rockets that were fired into Israel from Lebanon were Iranian grads
Well I must be really stupid. Because I was under the impression that both China & Iran had more sophisticated weapons.
 

AiR

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Couldn't help but notice the complete lack of pictures of Hamas rockets being fired or Israelis getting killed. Way to cover only one side of the story.
From a military point of view, it's hard to kill anyone with homemade missiles made with fertilizer that the recieving end can spot and alert the impact area to before the missile strikes. Reports on TV often mention the Qassam impacts and very seldom do they actually kill someone.
 

D-Fence

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The red cross is massively critizing Israel right now:

German Article

Google Translate

- Israel claims "Our troops are more important than helping injured civilians"
- Israel is completely blocking off media and medical aid to the war zone
- When they entered an area attacked by Israel, they found children sitting next to their dead mothers, 12 dead people, in another house 3 more dead and 15 injured, when they found them, the Israeli military ordered the red cross to leave immediately which they refused
- complete ignoring of humanitary rights, not rescueing injured and dead people
- civilians over 7 days without water
- no ambulance drives possible because Israel doesn't help them coordinate it and keeps attacking


Well, I think war isn't pretty and many of those rules only work on paper. However, you expect more from such a highly modern western country like Israel......
 

Plissken

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Couldn't help but notice the complete lack of pictures of Hamas rockets being fired or Israelis getting killed. Way to cover only one side of the story.
Apart from pictures 6, 7, 18, 22 and (I assume) 30, or are you just totally blind?
 
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