May 31st, 2004

[Renesis]

we're talking about an Elise here... most of them are used as track toys

 

[zenon]

Ya, I don't think I'd ever use an Elise as a daily driver. I'd still absolutely love to have one, but it's not exactly a weekday car.

 

[SiR_dude]

Ditto for the Elise as a track car.....if you'd buy one as a daily driver, you'd probably also buy a bike for those rainy days :lol: :lol:

 

[idletask]

Of course Elise and VX are track day toys. But then you need to get to the track in the first place...

And well, as ABS makes braking just more efficient, there's just no reason of not wanting it, except if you're some kind of... automotive taxidermist/archeologist. I live in the 21st century, myself.

 

[carlover]

And well, as ABS makes braking just more efficient

No, it doesn't.

 

[idletask]

And well, as ABS makes braking just more efficient

No, it doesn't.

Yes it does...

This is the 21st century, forget about grandpa's ABS! Why do you think it's been banned from F1?

Of course, if it's programmed by an idiot it will not be up to the task. But, well, you don't let idiots program that sort of thing.

 

[carlover]

And well, as ABS makes braking just more efficient

No, it doesn't.

Yes it does...

This is the 21st century, forget about grandpa's ABS! Why do you think it's been banned from F1?

Of course, if it's programmed by an idiot it will not be up to the task. But, well, you don't let idiots program that sort of thing.

Have you ever tried? I've experienced this when I did an advanced driving course. On a wet track, we're talking about 8 to 10 metres longer braking distance (with ABS) when braking from 50 km/h!
What ABS does, is not optimal. It can never be. What is optimal is to use every little bit of grip you have. ABS doesn't do that. It does something when your wheels lock. It's already too late then.

ABS is nice if you're not a good driver. If you're good, you'll stop quicker.

And F1 has nothing to do with it. In F1 they (i.e. the FIA) want the drivers to do the work (that's why automatic boxes and launch control were banned). ABS makes it easier to control the car and takes away a bit of the magic...........

 

[idletask]

Have you ever tried? I've experienced this when I did an advanced driving course. On a wet track, we're talking about 8 to 10 metres longer braking distance (with ABS) when braking from 50 km/h!
What ABS does, is not optimal. It can never be. What is optimal is to use every little bit of grip you have. ABS doesn't do that. It does something when your wheels lock. It's already too late then.

ABS is nice if you're not a good driver. If you're good, you'll stop quicker.

ABS just doesn't do what you describe at all, it works with thresholds, and thresholds can be as permissive as to allow wheel lock - or not. I don't know what kind of ABS you've tested but it surely wasn't anywhere near, say, a Bosch 5.3.

I've done better than that, I've tried not only to beat an ABS on the wet and failed (the car was a Peugeot 406) but I also tried avoidance maneuvers with and without. Needless to say, the result was that ABS helped greatly. On open roads this is a potential life saver.

No matter how you try, you cannot modulate the pressure on an individual wheel 20 times a second. Like any modern ABS does. The limiting factor to it now is the hydraulic system itself: not fast enough.

And F1 has nothing to do with it. In F1 they (i.e. the FIA) want the drivers to do the work (that's why automatic boxes and launch control were banned). ABS makes it easier to control the car and takes away a bit of the magic...........

You therefore purposedly forgot to mention that ABS also helped F1 drivers brake later.

 

[carlover]

Have you ever tried? I've experienced this when I did an advanced driving course. On a wet track, we're talking about 8 to 10 metres longer braking distance (with ABS) when braking from 50 km/h!
What ABS does, is not optimal. It can never be. What is optimal is to use every little bit of grip you have. ABS doesn't do that. It does something when your wheels lock. It's already too late then.

ABS is nice if you're not a good driver. If you're good, you'll stop quicker.

ABS just doesn't do what you describe at all, it works with thresholds, and thresholds can be as permissive as to allow wheel lock - or not. I don't know what kind of ABS you've tested but it surely wasn't anywhere near, say, a Bosch 5.3.

I don't have a clue. It was an Opel Astra 1.6 (the old one, the new one's electronics don't allow to switch of the ABS)

I've done better than that, I've tried not only to beat an ABS on the wet and failed (the car was a Peugeot 406) but I also tried avoidance maneuvers with and without. Needless to say, the result was that ABS helped greatly. On open roads this is a potential life saver.

Well, maybe you can't brake well enough. Makes me wonder how you braked. Locking your wheels will make you stop later..........
Anyway, you can steer (a little bit) with ABS. There are safer ways, eg not braking at all during you manouvre.............

No matter how you try, you cannot modulate the pressure on an individual wheel 20 times a second. Like any modern ABS does.

True and that's why ABS will help you when your left and right wheels are on different surfaces. That's when it realy does something you can't do better...............

 

[Renesis]

I've never seen an ABS system that can't be beaten by a human.. maybe Peogots are supercars...

 

[carlover]

I've never seen an ABS system that can't be beaten by a human.. maybe Peogots are supercars...

That would explain it.............

 

[idletask]

I've never seen an ABS system that can't be beaten by a human.. maybe Peogots are supercars...

Peugeot makes no supercar, it just uses 21st century technology

If you still don't believe that ABS is that efficient nowadays, well, what can I say, just try and see for yourself. As I say, I'm no car taxidermist, I live with my era. So does Lotus!

 

[carlover]

just try and see for yourself

That's what I did, but you don't believe me................

 

[idletask]

just try and see for yourself

That's what I did, but you don't believe me................

Oh, I do believe you but you see, the ABS system in the old Astra is dated. Now try the same test with a modern ABS, you're in for a surprise.

That's what _I_ did, but you don't believe me either...

 

[carlover]

just try and see for yourself

That's what I did, but you don't believe me................

Oh, I do believe you but you see, the ABS system in the old Astra is dated. Now try the same test with a modern ABS, you're in for a surprise.

That's what _I_ did, but you don't believe me either...

Well, I just don't know how well you brake..............

But I think an Audi A4 (2001) has modern ABS, but I also believe (never tested it properly) that I can outbrake that...............

 

[kteO1]

Have you ever tried? I've experienced this when I did an advanced driving course. On a wet track, we're talking about 8 to 10 metres longer braking distance (with ABS) when braking from 50 km/h!

What ABS does, is not optimal. It can never be. What is optimal is to use every little bit of grip you have. ABS doesn't do that. It does something when your wheels lock. It's already too late then.

ABS is nice if you're not a good driver. If you're good, you'll stop quicker.

ABS just doesn't do what you describe at all, it works with thresholds, and thresholds can be as permissive as to allow wheel lock - or not.


I've done better than that, I've tried not only to beat an ABS on the wet and failed (the car was a Peugeot 406) but I also tried avoidance maneuvers with and without. Needless to say, the result was that ABS helped greatly. On open roads this is a potential life saver.

Well, maybe you can't brake well enough. Makes me wonder how you braked. Locking your wheels will make you stop later..........
Anyway, you can steer (a little bit) with ABS. There are safer ways, eg not braking at all during you manouvre.............

well i do not totaly believe that you can brake better than an ABS system especially on a wet track..of course it depends on how wet the track is but if there is a certain amount of water the thing you will probably do is to lock the front wheels and make meters meters more than if ou had ABS..
that can easily be explained...when there is water the tyres can push away a certain amount of volume so as the tyre to have contact with the road...when the volume of the water is bigger than that that the tyre can push away the water goes under the tyre so the tyre doesn't have contact with the surface of the road because there is ? layer of water between them...
so if you tried to brake in a track like that the most probably thing is that you would brake several meters more than in a car with ABS.i also do believe that having ABS at your car helps you to make a better lap-time.it depends o course of your type to drive but in all ccases you wont lock your wheels meaning making worse lap time even if you push the pedal to the floor...that helps you brake even during cornering(at least at the entrance of the corner)meaning making more meters in the line...of course if you brake before the corner that is another thing...

i disagree that when you lock your wheels you will stop later because simply when you lock your wheels you use 100%of the tyres grip....but also in that modern ABS can use 100%of the tyre but you will make lets say 0.1meter more than if you had blocked your wheels....all that values only when it is dry and only for the straight line.....
with ABS you can steer a lot...i have done more than 1 advanced lessons not only for the track but also for every day and i've seen the great difference between cars with and cars without ABS...

 

[carlover]

Have you ever tried? I've experienced this when I did an advanced driving course. On a wet track, we're talking about 8 to 10 metres longer braking distance (with ABS) when braking from 50 km/h!

What ABS does, is not optimal. It can never be. What is optimal is to use every little bit of grip you have. ABS doesn't do that. It does something when your wheels lock. It's already too late then.

ABS is nice if you're not a good driver. If you're good, you'll stop quicker.

ABS just doesn't do what you describe at all, it works with thresholds, and thresholds can be as permissive as to allow wheel lock - or not.


I've done better than that, I've tried not only to beat an ABS on the wet and failed (the car was a Peugeot 406) but I also tried avoidance maneuvers with and without. Needless to say, the result was that ABS helped greatly. On open roads this is a potential life saver.

Well, maybe you can't brake well enough. Makes me wonder how you braked. Locking your wheels will make you stop later..........
Anyway, you can steer (a little bit) with ABS. There are safer ways, eg not braking at all during you manouvre.............

well i do not totaly believe that you can brake better than an ABS system especially on a wet track..of course it depends on how wet the track is but if there is a certain amount of water the thing you will probably do is to lock the front wheels and make meters meters more than if ou had ABS..
that can easily be explained...when there is water the tyres can push away a certain amount of volume so as the tyre to have contact with the road...when the volume of the water is bigger than that that the tyre can push away the water goes under the tyre so the tyre doesn't have contact with the surface of the road because there is ? layer of water between them...
so if you tried to brake in a track like that the most probably thing is that you would brake several meters more than in a car with ABS.i also do believe that having ABS at your car helps you to make a better lap-time.it depends o course of your type to drive but in all ccases you wont lock your wheels meaning making worse lap time even if you push the pedal to the floor...that helps you brake even during cornering(at least at the entrance of the corner)meaning making more meters in the line...of course if you brake before the corner that is another thing...

Well, that's why I say most people won't outbrake ABS. Because you've got to know how to brake. If you do it wrong (and lock your wheels) you will not stop quicker. So only an advanced driver can outbrake ABS...........

i disagree that when you lock your wheels you will stop later because simply when you lock your wheels you use 100%of the tyres grip....but also in that modern ABS can use 100%of the tyre but you will make lets say 0.1meter more than if you had blocked your wheels....all that values only when it is dry and only for the straight line.....

Not quite..........
That's the funny thing with grip. When you lose grip, the resitance decreases, so you actualy brake less than you would without the locked wheels. Funny, strange, but true. That's physics.........not my thing, so I can't explain why, but it's true.

with ABS you can steer a lot...i have done more than 1 advanced lessons not only for the track but also for every day and i've seen the great difference between cars with and cars without ABS...

Maybe with modern ABS. I don't know. With the ABS in an Astra, you can steer a little bit................

 

[kteO1]

i disagree that when you lock your wheels you will stop later because simply when you lock your wheels you use 100%of the tyres grip....but also in that modern ABS can use 100%of the tyre but you will make lets say 0.1meter more than if you had blocked your wheels....all that values only when it is dry and only for the straight line.....

Not quite..........
That's the funny thing with grip. When you lose grip, the resitance decreases, so you actualy brake less than you would without the locked wheels. Funny, strange, but true. That's physics.........not my thing, so I can't explain why, but it's true.

with ABS you can steer a lot...i have done more than 1 advanced lessons not only for the track but also for every day and i've seen the great difference between cars with and cars without ABS...

Maybe with modern ABS. I don't know. With the ABS in an Astra, you can steer a little bit................[/quote]


well you are wrong because when you block the wheels so as the tyres you don't lose grip but you have it in maximum!!!!
100% of pure force that(if my english are good)it is called friction..the ABS tries to use the friction at maximum but because of the fact that the pincers have to make pincer presses and it leaves (it opens and closes above in the disk in time dt) the car it will stop more after that if the pincer pressed continuously above in the disk even the drivers with very talent could go more fast with ABS other unfortunately with the ABS you lose in sense (because kradasmwn)i that when you lead fast is from most important if no the most important factor

 

[Viper007Bond]

ABS will slow you down faster than any non-ABS system can.

Remember from physics and the coefficents of friction? A rolling wheel has greater grip than that of a skidding wheel and therefore it will stop a car sooner or slow a car down in less time and distance.

 

[carlover]

ABS will slow you down faster than any non-ABS system can.

Remember from physics and the coefficents of friction? A rolling wheel has greater grip than that of a skidding wheel and therefore it will stop a car sooner or slow a car down in less time and distance.

Right, that's exactly the part I couldn't explain...............

This means that I'm right. 8) What ABS does is let the wheel roll......and skid......and roll......and skid.......and roll........ that's why it sounds so funny. When you can brake well (that means without locking your wheels) you can do better than that...................