McLaren espionage hearing

[Red_Bull]

So today is the day that McLaren International must front the World Motorsport Council to answer the charges laid against the team relating to the espionage case involving their chief designer Mike Coughlan and his wife. I know we've had topics on this subject but this thread isn't really about what has already happened (Stepney, photocopy shops, sabotage etc). It is about what will happen as a result and how McLaren, F1 and their publics will be affected. Will this spy saga pose a problem to the team as they attempt to defend their championship lead? What penalty (if any) will be applied? Will they even be banned?

Personally, I think that no charges should be laid against the team as they've stated clearly, and on several times, that no aspect of the Ferrari documents were ever in the hands of any other employee of the company, and that those whom Coughlan contacted told him to destroy them immediately. Their problem unfortunately is this affidavit prepared by Coughlan which apparently names several McLaren employees as having had an involvement in the scandal, and this will certainly complicate matters for the team's defence.

Should the FIA take the draconian step of docking points, or even excluding McLaren from the world championship, then I feel that would be a tremendous loss for the sport as it would deprive the millions of viewers a genuine championship fight - although seeing as Ferrari and the FIA enjoy a very close relationship I doubt that would carry much weight.

 

[fbc]

I tend to believe McLaren's statements that the Ferrari information was never in their hands, nor was the information used. Based on that, a penalty would be unjust (and add fuel to the argument that Ferrari is favoured by the FIA).

 

[HondaF1]

Drivers Await Racing Spy Scandal Ruling

They're calling it 'Ferrari-gate' - the motor racing espionage scandal that threatens to shatter Lewis Hamilton's Formula One dream.

The sport's disciplinary body will today decide whether Hamilton's McLaren team broke the rules when its chief designer was found to have secret information belonging to their Italian rivals.

Mike Coughlan has now been suspended but McLaren could still be docked points or even expelled from the championships.

The row over the 700-page dossier of technical information now extends to a criminal investigation in Italy, civil proceedings in London and the FIA's hearing in Paris today.

Ferrari has accused its former chief engineer Nigel Stepney of leaking top secret designs. He denies it.

McLaren says only Coughlan knew of the dossier and that it has acted properly.

But the FIA's charge against the Woking-based team accuses it of "unauthorised possession of documents and confidential information... that could be used to design, engineer, build, check, test, develop and or run a Ferrari formula One car".

No one alleges McLaren used Ferrari ideas but some argue that knowing a rival's car so well would assist any team.

Racing legend Sir Stirling Moss told Sky News: "The potential of it is as bad as doping in the Tour de France. If points were deducted it would be quite appalling. One thing I am convinced of is that the drivers wouldn't know about what had gone on."

Those drivers may suffer though, as may their team's reputation.

Mark Gallagher, who was once a designer for F1 team Jordan, said: "Ron Dennis, the boss of the McLaren team, has been very emotional about this. He runs a team which has got an unblemished record and very high standards.

"I think McLaren want to get to the bottom of this because they want any cloud or threat of cheating to be lifted away from them, and I think that is what partly today is about."

But how much damage has already been done to the image of Formula One?

Source

Didnt they say on one of the F1 sites though, that the team might be docked points, but the drivers wouldnt lose points as their job is only to drive the car given to them?

 

[Red_Bull]

`Ferrari it is `likely` that secrets helped McLaren`

Ferrari have reportedly claimed it is "likely" that McLaren's lead in the World Championship is the direct consequence of possessing stolen Ferrari documents.

The Guardian claims to have seen a document lodged at the High Court by Ferrari's lawyers relating to the ongoing Stepneygate crisis and says that 'the document sets out in greater detail than ever before their accusations in the sabotage scandal that has divided Formula One.'

It reports that there were 'five occasions on which, Ferrari claim, their secrets were made known to McLaren executives including Martin Witmarsh, the team's chief operations officer, and Paddy Lowe, the engineering director.'

This has been repeatedly denied by McLaren, who insist that only suspended chief designer Mike Coughlan was aware of the 780-page dossier of information that he reportedly received in March.

However, that assurance has apparently been refuted by Ferrari.

"The difference between the two teams is so close that it is likely that McLaren's superior number of points is a consequence of its chief designer having the Ferrari documents," the team's lawyers are reported to have argued, adding that being "in possession of the Ferrari documents has given McLaren an unfair advantage over Ferrari."

"The chief designer is part of the key group of three to four people who drive the technical team to improve the car. The opportunity for a chief designer to influence the car's performance in all areas is huge."

The Scuderia's lawyers also revealed that "Ferrari will suffer loss of at least 5.5m euros" should they lose to McLaren in the Constructors' Championship.

McLaren are to appear before the FIA today to answer charges 'fraudulent conduct' during the Stepneygate scandal.

Source

Hrmm, not too sure about their claims. Remember it was Raikkonen who suffered the problem in Spain, then hit the wall in Monaco. Massa had that problem in Australia and was outdriven by Hamilton in Malaysia. That accounted for a lot of lost points which McLaren were able to capitalise on. Ferrari were plain off the pace at Canada and Indy.

Yes, Coughlan was the chief desiger of the McLaren, but it must be extremely hard to quantify exactly what input he must've had, and whether any of his suggestions were down to having possessed the Ferrari documents.

Dunno what to make of that second to last paragraph either, about the 5.5M Euros...Ferrari surely can't claim it as a loss?

 

[Devon]

It would suck if McLaren have points deducted or are banned from the drivers/constructors championship. It would ruin the rest of the season because there would be no real title fight.

We'll just have to wait and see what happens...

 

[HondaF1]

^^ Ferrari have to say that about McLaren though. I think this will drag on for many months, but I am on McLarens side as Ferrari will do anything to win a title.

 

[fbc]

That finger-pointing by Ferrari just shows why I despise the team - it's a low-down, cheap, dirty, arrogant tactic, in short it's exactly what I would expect of them.

 

[HondaF1]

^ It's an arrogant problem. I hope the FIA do nothing and let Ferrari lose the championships.

I'll be pissed off though if the drivers are penalised.

 

[Necx0]

A big fine methinks......

 

[Red_Bull]

A big fine methinks......

Yeah, thats the likely option, however unfair it seems for the company.

 

[HondaF1]

^ Nah, if there is a penalty, it will be points deducted from the constructors championship only as a deterant to other teams. Fines don't work in major sports.

 

[gti138]

McLaren Decision

McLaren Decision

World Motor Sport Council - Decision
26.07.2007


An extraordinary meeting of the World Motor Sport Council was held in Paris on 26 July, 2007. The following decision was taken:

?The WMSC is satisfied that Vodafone McLaren Mercedes was in possession of confidential Ferrari information and is therefore in breach of article 151c of the International Sporting Code. However, there is insufficient evidence that this information was used in such a way as to interfere improperly with the FIA Formula One World Championship. We therefore impose no penalty.

?But if it is found in the future that the Ferrari information has been used to the detriment of the championship, we reserve the right to invite Vodafone McLaren Mercedes back in front of the WMSC where it will face the possibility of exclusion from not only the 2007 championship but also the 2008 championship.

?The WMSC will also invite Mr Stepney and Mr Coughlan to show reason why they should not be banned from international motor sport for a lengthy period and the WMSC has delegated authority to deal with this matter to the legal department of the FIA.?

Source

 

[HondaF1]

Good that no action is being taken.

Im waiting now for Ferrari to kick up a fuss!

 

[gti138]

And they will... I don't like Ferrari (the team) love the road cars though!

Looks like the status quo has been maintained but Nige and Mike might not be on their way to Honda any time soon!

 

[HondaF1]

I think that McLaren arent the sort of team who would use other teams information. This is something thats between Ferrari, Mike and Nigel.

 

[gti138]

Ron's been out talking about honesty and integrity a lot in the recent past (maybe there's a link?) and I don't think a team with their history as well as their current investment in F1 would throw it all away by cheating - They do well enough on their own anyway.

Now the FIA want to pursue Mike & Nigel... Will be interesting to see the results there.

I must have lucked onto the result of the hearing as it came out - I checked the usual sites (nothing) and then checked the FIA and saw it - then I went back to the usual sites and the release was there!!

 

[Red_Bull]

Ron's been out talking about honesty and integrity a lot in the recent past (maybe there's a link?) and I don't think a team with their history as well as their current investment in F1 would throw it all away by cheating - They do well enough on their own anyway.

It would be extremely idiotic for a company such as McLaren to risk its honesty and integrity (fast becoming buzz words I know) in such a stupid fashion.

Glad they've been acquitted in any case, and I look forward to the pending decision against Coughlan. Not sure about Stepney, there's more to that case yet.

 

[stevanford1]

How the FIA came up with the theory that McLaren was innocent is an absolute wonder. In Coughlan affadavit (spelling) he said that four people knew about the documents but said nothing. How did they know about ferraris floor design which they deemed illegal. Remember that was at the start of the season. People say that they believe McLaren would never cheat. While i respect your opinions don't you think that if any team was able to have access to their main rivals information they wouldn't use it. The only reason they were caught is because Coughlan was stupid enough to tell his wife to copy the documents and an employee at the printers saw the documents, got suspicious and it spiraled from there.

MCLAREN JUST LIKE THE REST OF F1 ARE CHEATERS!!!

 

[GraemeH]

I can understand why Ron Dennis is unhappy. The verdict says "we're finding you not guilty because we can't find evidence you are guilty", when it should be "we're finding you not guilty because there's evidence you're not guilty.

Either the McLaren has benefited from the knowledge or it hasn't. If they find that it hasn't, that's evidence that McLaren are not guilty. Not just a lack of evidence they are guilty.

don't you think that if any team was able to have access to their main rivals information they wouldn't use it.

They didn't steal the data for McLaren. They stole it to take to another team (for example Honda) or to field bids from other teams for the data.

 

[HondaF1]

While i respect your opinions don't you think that if any team was able to have access to their main rivals information they wouldn't use it.

Nobody in F1 is stupid enough to use information like this on their cars, especially as they are aligned with manufacturers who have lots to lose.

Sure, they take photos and notes in the pitlane and copy designs that way, but you wouldnt use official information on your car, as you will get caught.