Middle East and North Africa Unrest

Heathrow

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So, Big G is dead, good riddance to the murdering despot.

Aljazeera has a short clip of him alive but wounded and being put onto a pickup truck. Then they show the one most people have probably seen now of him dead, defintely him or one of his look-a-likes.

Aljazeera is also running a news banner stating that Saif has also been wounded and captured, no details as yet.

Good news for the Libyan people, who the NTC claim have lost 40,000 people in the uprising, plus countless thousands killed in the preceding four decades.

I wish them luck with what happens next.
 

argatoga

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As I mentioned elsewhere and before I am weary of the pro Islamic law TNC. Religion and government are not a good mix.

If the TNC does establish a sound government it will have been at a huge cost as Libya's stored arms are now with terrorists throughout the Middle East on account of the war. The West's good intentions have armed terrorists. Good work.
 
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jmsprovan

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Libyans as a whole are very secular and educated, the BBC did a report on this a few weeks ago in Tripoli and couldn't find a single person in the streets who wanted an Islamic state.
 

argatoga

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From another thread.

Libya?s Interim Leader Calls for State Based on Rule of Law, Islam

Posted Tuesday, September 13th, 2011 at 1:51 am

The head of Libya's transitional government urged thousands of cheering supporters in the capital, Tripoli, late Monday to support a civil, democratic state that honors Islam and respects the rule of law.

The chairman of the National Transitional Council, Mustafa Abdel Jalil, said his provisional administration seeks a state where ?Islamic law is the basis for legislation,? but rejects any extremist ideology ?on the right or the left.?

Jalil arrived in Tripoli Saturday for the first time since his allies chased former leader Moammar Gadhafi out of the city. He addressed the rowdy crowd in Martyrs' Square, a site that until recently was used for pro-Gadhafi rallies. Jalil had been running the provisional government from the eastern city of Benghazi, cradle of the revolt that overthrew Mr. Gadhafi last month.

Jalil also called on Libyans to avoid reprisal attacks against Gadhafi holdouts, saying Libya's judicial system should alone administer justice to those ?who harmed the Libyan people.?

In a report released Tuesday, Amnesty International said both sides of the conflict have committed war crimes during the six-month civil war. The report mainly details crimes against civilians committed by Gadhafi loyalists, but also documented brutal revenge crimes committed by some provisional authority forces when loyalist fighters were ejected from eastern Libya.

Forces loyal to Mr. Gadhafi launched a series of counterattacks early Monday, including a surprise raid that killed 15 guards at a key oil refinery in the coastal city of Ras Lanuf, deep inside NTC-controlled territory. Battles also continued near Mr. Gadhafi's hometown of Sirte and in parts of the oasis city of Bani Walid, southeast of Tripoli.

Also Monday, China officially recognized the NTC as the ?ruling authority and representative of the Libyan people.? Algerian officials said late Sunday they would recognize the NTC as Libya's rightful authority once a ?representative government is in place.?

Moammar Gadhafi's whereabouts is still unknown. Late Saturday, Guinea Bissau's prime minister said his country would welcome the ousted leader should he seek exile in the West African country. Guinea Bissau had strong ties to Mr. Gadhafi's government when he was in power.

A message attributed to the former leader Monday urged Libyans to press ahead for his cause and not to surrender the nation to what he called ?colonialism? and ?foreign influence.?
http://blogs.voanews.com/breaking-news/2011/09/13/libyas-interim-leader-calls-for-state-based-on-rule-of-law-islam-3/
 

argatoga

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Don't confuse Islamophobes with facts.
I'm against any religious state. Gaddafi ran things in a secular manner, however now we have a new regime with a leader who wants to integrate religion and state.
 

SpitfireMK461

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I'm against any religious state. Gaddafi ran things in a secular manner, however now we have a new regime with a leader who wants to integrate religion and state.
Gaddafi also murdered his own people en masse. The religious status of government does not correlate with how it serves the people.
 

jmsprovan

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I'm against any religious state. Gaddafi ran things in a secular manner, however now we have a new regime with a leader who wants to integrate religion and state.
You are seeing what you want to see.

He says he wants to run a state with Islamic values. Islamic State =/= State run with Islamic values.
 

jmsprovan

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Your interpretation.
The difference between an Islamic state and a state with Islamic values isn't interpretation, its fact.

Pakistan and Morroco are examples of each, and they couldn't be more different.
 

Heathrow

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A secular state and constitution are a better way to go, similar to the Turkish model. However, so long as there are free and fair votes on both the final constitution and elections, the Libyans can have what ever they want, it's their country and they have just fought for it.
 

argatoga

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The difference between an Islamic state and a state with Islamic values isn't interpretation, its fact.

Pakistan and Morroco are examples of each, and they couldn't be more different.
Islamic law is the basis for legislation
I don't see him saying values or inspiration, but basis.
 

calvinhobbes

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I don't see him saying values or inspiration, but basis.
Let's see:

ba?sis, noun, \?b?-s?s\, plural: ba?ses

Definition of BASIS

1: the bottom of something considered as its foundation
2: the principal component of something
3a: something on which something else is established or based, b: an underlying condition or state of affairs
4: the basic principle
5: a set of linearly independent vectors in a vector space such that any vector in the vector space can be expressed as a linear combination of them with appropriately chosen coefficients
On that basis, I see no basis for your argument that "based on Islamic values" automatically means "no basis for laws but Islam", of which you are so curiously certain. How on Earth do you know where Libya is going if even the Libyans themselves have not yet had the time to decide?
 

narf

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I'm against any religious state.
Is it realisticly possible to become POTUS without being Christian? :rolleyes:

I don't see him saying values or inspiration, but basis.
Basing the laws in a country on religious values is nothing new. Look at how many of the ten commandments are listed in many sets of laws.

Coming from a religious source is in itself not a bad thing. The stuff coming from some religious sources is though, but that's more due to crazy than religious.
 

argatoga

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Is it realisticly possible to become POTUS without being Christian? :rolleyes:
I would have no problem voting for an atheist. Despite the Neo Cons efforts the U.S. still upholds the separation of church from state.

Basing the laws in a country on religious values is nothing new. Look at how many of the ten commandments are listed in many sets of laws.

Coming from a religious source is in itself not a bad thing. The stuff coming from some religious sources is though, but that's more due to crazy than religious.
When I hear basis I interpret that as inclusive of the thing it is built upon, not influenced from.
 
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MWF

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I would have no problem voting for an atheist. Despite the Neo Cons efforts the U.S. still upholds the separation of church from state.
That may be enshrined in law but in practise things are different. Any US presidential candidate has to be seen to be a practising Christian (regardless of what they believe) or they have zero chance of taking office. If that weren't the case then forget Islam. Look at how many powerful and influential Jews there are in America yet how may of them have been POTUS?

And don't fear Islam, fear lunatics.
 

argatoga

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I have no fear of Islam. I often bring up how influential the Islamic word was during the Middle Ages. Algebra and the concept of zero among many other advancements. Not to mention how they treated other faiths with respect (albeit not completely equal).

Libya as it is now exists in a turbulent area filled with religious lunatics. They just booted out their secular leader and are vulnerable to having a religious state pop up. Having the head of the transitional government come up and say he wants a rule of law based on religious law is disquieting.
 

narf

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They just booted out their secular leader
This sort-of supports my point of "religiously influenced does not necessarily mean evil"... just like having separation of church and state does not necessarily mean "not evil", see old Libya as an example.
 
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