NBC/CBS reject "Kill the Ground Zero Mosque" ad

Canuck said:
I'll weigh in briefly here:

14-storey Mosque near WTC is a fundamentally stupid idea. Intended or not, it is going to be perceived as provocative and distasteful. America, like it or not, is a predominantly Christian nation and building this is just going to upset the majority.
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As far as I'm concerned, we shouldn't blame the mosque's backers for people's ignorance and bigotry. If this country was run by the way the majority felt it would be a fucking mess. Or more of one.
 
British_Rover said:
^^^

You know normally I don't buy anything you write. I just think you are too Euro/German centric but I think in this case you are onto something.
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I'm sorry you got that impression from me. The reason might be my ambivalent perception of the USA of the present. And I know I share that view with lots of non-Americans.

You surely must know, that you live in a country with a lot of contradictions and an equal amount of pros and cons. Every American I ever talked to, admitted that, too (though sometimes only after a few beers). And it's that two-faced nature, which scares me and a lot of non-Americans sometimes.

I believe that the USA are in a constant balancing act, keeping the balance only by their economical power and its wealth. The system it is built on, only works as long as the USA are the number 1 in the world. I have strong doubts, that the USA will be able to live up to their ideals and great principles, once it loses the No. 1 position in the world.

I'm afraid that the USA might be unwilling to give up its No. 1 position without falling back upon its military power. I read a lot about the Cold War and believe me: There wasn't a good or a bad side in it. Both sides where equally engaged in atrocities, immoral operations and didn't respect the sovereignty of other countries. The blood of hundreds of thousands innocent dead people stuck to the hands of both the USSR and the USA. The only difference was the moral attitude: In the name of democracy and with the intention to rid the world of those "commie bastards", the USA helped bringing down democratically elected governments in unparalled acts of ignorance and hysteria -- just because they were a bit too left for their taste and feared they might have fraternized with the "enemy". And it's not just the bad CIA -- most presidents agreed with those actions. One the fiercest cold warriors was John F. Kennedy, even though he has been practically been turned into a saint these days.

You have to realize, that the reason why 9/11 happened, lies not so much in religious fanatism but more in the tactical errors the USA made in the past 6 decades. When muslims all over the world hate the USA today, it's because they have made bad experiences with it in the past. I'm not saying that 9/11 is the USA's own fault -- nothing can justify such an act of terror -- but at least in part it was brought upon the USA by its own stupidity and disrespect towards other cultures, nations and believes.

Those are inconvenient views for patriotic Americans, who grew up being stuffed with national pride and pathos from childhood up and I assume that's the reason, why I am sometimes attacked for my views here. But self-satisfaction is a bad advisor.

The truth is: I'm not as Europe-biased, as many think. I rather keep a critical mind towards just about everything and try to always see the whole picture and not only parts of it.
 
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British_Rover said:
And again we come to the Democrats are pussies part of this evenings entertainment. You know just once I would like one of them to stand up to the Republicans even if it cost them votes. Obama tried but then his handlers must have had a freak out and told him to walk back his comments.
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This. My god this.

I think they're actually so paranoid about losing any votes this November that they just aren't saying anything at all... which is just letting conservatives absolutely dictate the discourse.
 
Dogbert said:
I think they're actually so paranoid about losing any votes this November that they just aren't saying anything at all... which is just letting conservatives absolutely dictate the discourse.
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lol thats been obamas strategy all along - stick your nose into something that doesnt concern you but dont take a stand on it
 
I don't mean Obama specifically, I just mean Democrats in general.

And really, I think any President should have and would have said what he did the first time. Despite not "his concern", there's a growing number of people calling for Bush Jr to support it, having gone to unusually great lengths during his terms to separate public perception of terrorists from Muslims.
 
^ Fareed Zakaria said about the same thing on Charley Rose the other night. That George W. Bush would have nipped this in the bud, and defused this sooner, is rear view wishing though. I think that the administration realized that they don't gain points from jumping on every little news story after the Henry Louis Gates deal.
 
I think I'm going to start referring to this as the "Manhattan Burlington Coat Factory Muslim community center." It's cumbersome, but at least it's accurate.
 
MacGuffin said:
The truth is: I'm not as Europe-biased, as many think. I rather keep a critical mind towards just about everything and try to always see the whole picture and not only parts of it.
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I agree with you but I think your predictions for the future are a little too dire. Even the most obnoxious rednecks I know will eventually admit that the US won't be "#1" forever and I think they'll be able to deal with that. If you're worried about a second cold war between the US and China, I think our economic ties are too strong for that.

LeVeL said:
lol thats been obamas strategy all along - stick your nose into something that doesnt concern you but dont take a stand on it
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Considering that it's a question of the first amendment, yeah, I think the President has plenty of reason to weigh in. If you want to talk about getting involved in things that don't concern you, I think Sarah Palin is a much better example.

Dogbert said:
And really, I think any President should have and would have said what he did the first time. Despite not "his concern", there's a growing number of people calling for Bush Jr to support it, having gone to unusually great lengths during his terms to separate public perception of terrorists from Muslims.
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Some of his former aides have spoken out against all this xenophobia and supported the mosque. I'd be surprised if he says anything about it until after November though.

Mitlov said:
I think I'm going to start referring to this as the "Manhattan Burlington Coat Factory Muslim community center." It's cumbersome, but at least it's accurate.
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The MBCFMCC? :lol:
 
tigger said:
Considering that it's a question of the first amendment, yeah, I think the President has plenty of reason to weigh in. If you want to talk about getting involved in things that don't concern you, I think Sarah Palin is a much better example.
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What does the President have to do with enforcing Constitutional rights? That's what the Supreme Court is for.
And what on Earth does Sarah Palin have to do with Obama's comments regarding this project?
 
LeVeL said:
What does the President have to do with enforcing Constitutional rights? That's what the Supreme Court is for.
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He's not enforcing them, he's reminding everyone they exist.

LeVeL said:
And what on Earth does Sarah Palin have to do with Obama's comments regarding this project?
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He means that Sarah Palin has even less to do with this than Obama does.
 
LeVeL said:
What does the President have to do with enforcing Constitutional rights? That's what the Supreme Court is for.
And what on Earth does Sarah Palin have to do with Obama's comments regarding this project?
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From that Bloomberg report

Republicans will likely use President Barack Obama?s support for the right of a Muslim group to build an Islamic center near the World Trade Center site to force Democrats to defend an unpopular position in the November election campaign.
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Obama has nothing to do with this, but the Republicans are dragging him into it. You can't ask someone for their point of view, attack them for it and then tell them to stay out of the argument.

As for Palin, from her Twitter

Mr. President, did you encourage the mosque dvlprs to accept Gov. Paterson?s offer of land if they move away from hallowed ground @ GZero?
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Which aside from being a trapping question, is trying to drag him into it - and sticking her nose in as well.
 
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Mr. President, did you encourage the mosque dvlprs to accept Gov. Paterson?s offer of land if they move away from hallowed ground @ GZero?
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http://voices.washingtonpost.com/plum-line/2010/08/daft_idea_offer_state_land_to.html

And an interesting comment from that article, regarding how opponents are pointing to polling to back up their argument:
"I hear that Slavery and Jim Crow also polled well in the anti and post Bellum south...The Japanese internment was wildly popular in California...just sayin'"
 
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My bad, I must have forgotten that time when I said that Sarah Palin should be involved in this too.

And are you seriously blaming the opposing party for something that the President came out and said? Did Dick Cheney hold Obama's kids hostage until the latter piped up about the Mosque (yeah, I know, its not technically a Mosque)? Oh, right, of course that didn't happen but Obama was under pressure from Republicans to voice his opinion, right? Nice to know that he is a puppet of the opposing party.

Its great to see that whatever happens, whether Obama does something good or bad, he is always praised without question and the Republicans are blamed for it (and Palin and Bush are inevitably dragged into the conversation for no reason whatsoever).

edit: and since is the President concerned about someone's twitter?
 
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LeVeL said:
Its great to see that whatever happens, whether Obama does something good or bad, he is always praised without question and the Republicans are blamed for it (and Palin and Bush are inevitably dragged into the conversation for no reason whatsoever).
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Actually, I always see hatred against Obama. Hatred if he says nothing because "he doesn't care about his own country", hatred if he does say something because "it's none of his business".

And noone dragged Sarah Palin into the conversation, she joined all on her own.
 
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LeVeL said:
What does the President have to do with enforcing Constitutional rights? That's what the Supreme Court is for.
And what on Earth does Sarah Palin have to do with Obama's comments regarding this project?
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The President is the head of the Executive branch. The Executive branches job is to enforce the laws. The Supreme court's job is to the interpret laws not enforce them. Also the Supreme court doesn't make public comments on pretty much any issue because it might influence upcoming court cases. They wouldn't say anything about this one way or the other unless they had a court case. There is a suit pending about this but I don't see it ever making it to the supreme court. This is a pretty clear cut case of being completely and totally Constitutional. The SCOTUS isn't going to take up a case like that they won't have to. If it did somehow get to them it would take years.

Obama was a visting Lecturer at the University of Chicago teaching oh wait for it constitutional law.

If you have two potential presidential challengers, Palin and Gingrich, coming out against something that you know is right saying things that are factually wrong and unconstitutional. I think it would be hard not to say something.



Obama is pretty well qualified to speak on this matter. More so then Palin who is just using this as a wedge issue. What is Palin's qualification? Oh yeah she was a TV sportscaster for a few years, Mayor of a tiny town then quit halfway through her first term as Gov. because she was a lame duck after all the ethics investigations.


And of course NYC isn't part of the real America so why does Palin care? Because she knows she can wind up her base of supporters who have never even been to New York and will take what she says as gospel without bothering to verify facts.


LeVeL said:
My bad, I must have forgotten that time when I said that Sarah Palin should be involved in this too.

And are you seriously blaming the opposing party for something that the President came out and said? Did Dick Cheney hold Obama's kids hostage until the latter piped up about the Mosque (yeah, I know, its not technically a Mosque)? Oh, right, of course that didn't happen but Obama was under pressure from Republicans to voice his opinion, right? Nice to know that he is a puppet of the opposing party.

Its great to see that whatever happens, whether Obama does something good or bad, he is always praised without question and the Republicans are blamed for it (and Palin and Bush are inevitably dragged into the conversation for no reason whatsoever).

edit: and since is the President concerned about someone's twitter?
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I think I explained why I think he had to say something about this situation.

As to your last part I think you are letting your bias show again. I criticized Obama for saying the right thing and then walking back his comments the next day under pressure from Republicans and I assume his advisers.

He should have stuck by his original statements. Backing them up made him look weak and indecisive.


Criticizing Obama here.

British_Rover said:
And again we come to the Democrats are pussies part of this evenings entertainment. You know just once I would like one of them to stand up to the Republicans even if it cost them votes. Obama tried but then his handlers must have had a freak out and told him to walk back his comments.
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Also I think most people have praised Bush for in general saying the right thinks about Islam and Muslims in the past. He would be uniquely qualified to put out some of the fires on the right with a few short statements. The 20 something percent approval rating he has is probably mostly among the people who oppose this the most. Bush is being dragged into it because he can probably do some good.

See my post here for about Bush.

British_Rover said:
Also W. Bush is getting some calls to make some kind of stance on this which makes some sense. Most of the US really, really disaproves of Bush with his final approval rating at the time he left office around 22 percent I think it has climbed a little since that time but I am having trouble finding a source.

That 22% of people who still approve and respect him are probably a lot of the same peopel who are most vocally against the YMMA. If Bush said something they might listen or his approval rating might go down to 10% I don't know but it is worth a shot.

http://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2010/08/a-task-for-george-w-bush/61133/
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LeVeL said:
What does the President have to do with enforcing Constitutional rights?
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Article II said:
Before (the President) enter on the Execution of his Office, he shall take the following Oath or Affirmation:

"I do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will faithfully execute the Office of President of the United States, and will to the best of my Ability, preserve, protect and defend the Constitution of the United States."
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To sum up British_Rover's post: it's his job. ;)

LeVeL said:
Nice to know that he is a puppet of the opposing party.
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He is a Democrat, after all. The GOP has effectively controlled the national dialogue for decades.

Palin dragged herself into this discussion. Bush has been dragged into it by others in the GOP (and has officially said, "No comment", because he's an asshole who puts party politics ahead of Constitutional rights and his personal views). Obama should've stepped up on this weeks ago, but I wouldn't say he only said something because of pressure from the right. A lot of Democrats had been pretty pissed at his silence on the issue. And like Interceptor said, Obama is perpetually stuck in catch 22s.
 
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Obama is getting involved because he knows it will further enrage the far-right who will probably end up spewing out more hate and tv ads, which will force the more moderate republicans who dont really care all to much about Muslims to reconsider their position when voting during the midterms.

If the democrats play this whole thing right, it could be the topic that splits the republican party into two parties, an ultra-nationalist conservative redneck lynch mob, and a party who actually want what the republican party used to stand for, smaller government and lower taxes.
 
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