Rumour Mill: Netherlands looks to ban all non-electric cars by 2025

maxtortheone

Chicken Fiddler
Joined
Oct 16, 2007
Messages
11,891
Location
Bucharest, Romania
Car(s)
2006 Renault Clio 1.4 16V
By 2025, the Netherlands may only allow electric vehicles on the road.

A majority of elected officials in the Tweede Kamer, the lower house of Parliament, supported a motion proposed by the Labor Party (PvdA) to ban all diesel and petroleum cars from the Dutch market starting in 2025. If enacted, this proposal would allow existing fossil fuel-powered cars to stay on the road until they died, but when it comes to new sales, only electric cars would be permitted.

"We are ambitious, perhaps other parties are less so," PvdA leader Diederik Samsom told the local NL Times.

While it is still unclear whether or not the motion will pass, some electric enthusiasts see the proposal as progress all the same. This law would not only affect Dutch drivers, but would also require more electric vehicle output from car manufacturers, and potentially destigmatize electric vehicles as a niche purchase.

"One big thing that's preventing more people from buying [electric cars] is awareness ? people just don't know about them," Joel Levin, executive director of Plug In America, tells The Christian Science Monitor in a phone interview Thursday. "It is a pretty big shift for how you think about your car."

But this proposal doesn't mean that the Netherlands is a model of energy efficiency ? yet. Rather, it's one of the most carbon-intensive countries in the European Union, according to a 2015 study by Deloitte. Natural gas and petroleum make up the majority of the Netherland's energy resources at 41 and 42 percent respectively, with solid fuels coming in third at 10 percent and finally renewable energies making up five percent of the overall energy mix.

In 2012, the transportation sector consumed the most energy of all sources, constituting 29 percent of all consumption in the Netherlands. In the United States, by comparison, transportation represents 27 percent of the country's consumption, according to a 2015 report from the Energy Information Administration.

This isn't the first time that the Netherlands has announced an ambitious energy-saving goal in transportation technology.

The Dutch energy company Eneco, partnering with VIVENS rail companies, announced a plan in 2015 to make a fleet of trains powered entirely by wind energy within the next three years. And for almost a year now, the Netherlands has boasted the world's first solar road, a bike path made of solar panels that generates enough electricity to power a small home for a year. The Netherlands has also announced plans to pave roads with recycled plastic, which they market as durable and low maintenance, with a smaller environmental impact than asphalt production.

And while these proposals may be more experimental, advocates say electric vehicles have real potential.

"For people who are aware [of electric cars], there are a few myths," Mr. Levin says. Primarily, many people have the misconception that electric vehicles are expensive, slow, unsafe, and inconvenient.

"They are not fancy cars for rich people ? there are many affordable ones. And if you compare apples to apples, the total coast of ownership is very competitive," he explains.

Along with these myths, there are also a lot of positives that gas or diesel-powered cars don't experience. "Apart from any environmental benefits, they are a pleasure to drive, there is tremendous power," he says. "And maintenance is low ? there is no engine, so if you change the brakes and batteries, nothing really could go wrong."

Charging is easy, he adds; it can be done at home overnight. "People worry about running out of power, but the [drivers] that run out of power are the same ones that run out of gas."
SOURCE
 

DanRoM

Forum Addict
Joined
Feb 27, 2009
Messages
8,075
Location
Ruhr Area, Germany
Car(s)
MX-5 ND, CBF1000 & two bikes
The Netherlands are not the only country with plans like this. It is inevitable.
 

MWF

Now needs wood
Joined
May 29, 2008
Messages
27,769
Location
MWF HQ, Ukadia
Car(s)
MX-5 1.8i Indiana SE, update pending
I'm filing this under "ambitious but rubbish". It's a nice idea in theory but in practice? Where is all the electricity coming from to charge these vehicles? Certainly not from renewables if they are currently only at 5%.
 

Adunaphel

KLAUWD
STAFF MEMBER
DONOR
Joined
Jan 18, 2006
Messages
11,562
Location
Fermany
Car(s)
'18 Clio; '13 Cube Hyde
Fuck. I have no idea where to start. This is ridiculously rubbish journalism (then again, Christian Science Monitor... I'm sorry I insulted journalists worldwide by comparing them to this bunch). The motion was passed, yes. And the appointed secretary has already replied in no uncertain terms that getting that done by 2025 is just overly ambitious. There are already plans in place to have 100% zero emission cars being sold by 2035, to which both the government and other parties are committed. Changing those plans one-sidedly halfway through the execution of the precursors is not just bad politics. It's bad, period.
 
Last edited:

eizbaer

Forum Addict
Joined
Nov 24, 2008
Messages
5,620
Location
Aachen, Germany
Car(s)
Seat Leon
I'm filing this under "ambitious but rubbish". It's a nice idea in theory but in practice? Where is all the electricity coming from to charge these vehicles? Certainly not from renewables if they are currently only at 5%.
Those 5% are all energy combined, including heat and stuff like that. Electricity is quite a bit more, some 15% at the moment, I believe (wikipedia only has numbers for 2010 - roughly 12%). It could also be quite a lot more. Germany sits at 30% renewable electricity for 2015 (source - 2015 is only estimated, go with 26% for 2014 if you're being a pessimistic ass), for example. It is not entirely unreasonable to expect the Netherlands to develop in a similar direction... (Germany went from ~20% RE in 2012 to ~30% in 2015 - see how quickly this happens)

Having a large fleet of EVs actually helps bump that number up even further, because those EVs can easily store a massive amount of energy and power when renewable energy is at high output - where it currently would go to waste. So EVs are actually an important technological piece of the puzzle in the move to (more) renewable energy. In the future, the whole vehicle-to-grid thing will gain a lot more traction as well and Nissan is already enabling their EVs now to feed back into the grid. Addtionally, over here it is very common for nearly all charge point operators to guarantee 100% renewable electricity is used for charging your car. True, this is still rather easy with a tiny amount of EVs on the road, but it reflects the general direction very well.

I'm with Dan on this (also professionally, I have to be :p): it is inevitable! Of course, banning all ICE cars from 2025 onwards is quite ambitious, but people are too lazy and used to their comfort to change in any way. I am actually annoyed by how many people think electromobility is somehow impossible to pull off or make work - it is not, you just have to adjust a little bit. It's not the same as driving an ICE. Sometimes, you just have to help people along a little bit...

Norway is doing exactly the same as the Netherlands, by the way. Also banning sales/registrations of ICE cars after 2025... not sure how far along the legislation is, but still. I think they even came up with the idea quite a bit earlier.
Of course, both these countries currently have a lovely luxury tax on conventional vehicles that they (at least in part) don't have on EVs...

Stupid idea.
Way to make a valuable contribution :p
Gimme your concerns, man! Also go test drive a Tesla, or an i3 or something like that... you'll love it!

The motion was passed, yes. And the appointed secretary has already replied in no uncertain terms that getting that done by 2025 is just overly ambitious. There are already plans in place to have 100% zero emission cars being sold by 2035, to which both the government and other parties are committed. Changing those plans one-sidedly halfway through the execution of the precursors is not just bad politics. It's bad, period.


[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Tahoma, Calibri, Geneva, sans-serif]Wohoo... its weird how nobody gives a damn if this is supposed to happen in 20 years time instead of 10. I think the 2035 goal already agreed upon is very much awesome and much more realistic as well. Additionally, it'll give EV-makers more time to convince customers of their products instead of having them forced to make a change. The psychological side of this plays a large role I think... even if people would have loved something, had they stumbled upon it themselves, they might end up hating / resenting it when it's forced upon them :nod:[/FONT]
 
Last edited:

Cowboy

My name is Sheridan
Joined
Mar 31, 2009
Messages
9,805
I am actually annoyed by how many people think electromobility is somehow impossible to pull off or make work - it is not, you just have to adjust a little bit. It's not the same as driving an ICE. Sometimes, you just have to help people along a little bit...
Bullcrap, I want a car I can drive the other side of Europe in whenever I damn well feel like it, this means I can't have some glorified fucking golfcart that I have to plug in for 8h every 300 k, so don't give me that naieve eco hippie bullshit about how 'electromobility works', because if it means I have to give up my freedom to go wherever I want whenever I want it, IT DOES NOT FUCKING WORK.

Help people along a little bit? What? You call limiting ones freedom of motion 'a little bit?' I don't need no fucking treehuggers to come tell me how to live my Goddamn life, where I can go, and where I can't , so take your 'little bit', and shove it where the Goddamn sun don't shine.

You, and all others like you, will pry my ICE car from my cold dead hands.
 
Last edited:

eizbaer

Forum Addict
Joined
Nov 24, 2008
Messages
5,620
Location
Aachen, Germany
Car(s)
Seat Leon
Your post shows exactly the problem I was addressing... it is filled with outdated half knowledge and prejudice :|

The thing is... you don't have to plug the damn thing in for 8 hours every 300km. There's perfectly usable solutions that let you charge some 300k (to stick to that number) in less than half an hour :dunno: The only problem is that sufficient infrastructure simply isn't out there yet (in big enough numbers), which currently makes long trips in EVs comfortable only if you plan them ahead. Then again, there are lovely Apps and GPS solutions that do exactly that for you.

Hard facts: taking Teslas superchargers since those are the only real quick chargers out there in the field at the moment (imo): 300km are between 45-60 kWh. The supercharger can deliver up to 135kW, which lets you charge 60 kWh in ~30 minutes (taking into account some energy loss along the way). Audi/Porsche are talking about installing 350kW chargers, which would deliver ~400km of range in less than 15 minutes.
Regarding said infrastructure density for Germany (simply because I know some numbers): there are currently some 14.000 fuel stations in Germany - if we had the same sort of number of quick chargers (or even more, if you equate monetary value of the infrastructure, plus every fuel station can usually service 4-8 cars at a time) you'd never run into any problems regarding your charging needs. Yes, your fuel stop will be 15-30 minutes (depending on what kind of charging infrastructure you use) instead of 5-10, but that is a break-time I think most people could live with every 3 hours or so... If you can't, that's up to you of course.

Additional thought: how often do you actually go distances longer than 300 or 400km in one day? I know I do that maybe once a month, usually for work. A few more times a year for holiday... those few times, I can live with having to wait an additional half an hour in total. The EV makes up for that in other respects, I can assure you :) Also EVs don't have to be glorified golf carts - most of the early models were, sure, but more and more serious offerings are arriving on the market. With plummeting battery prices (and you have to call it that - iirc battery prices have gone down to about 1/6 of what they were 6 or 7 years ago), long range EVs (say 300+ km) are becoming more and more affordable, so the number of trips that actually require quick charging infrastructure will actually decrease (for each individual that is).
 

Cowboy

My name is Sheridan
Joined
Mar 31, 2009
Messages
9,805
If you honestly feel waiting around for 30 minutes every 300k is 'worth it' you are truly very VERY lost or you just don't get out much....

About those long trips, I don't take 300k trips, well I do but that's not my main issue, I take 2000k and 1400k trips respectivly, depending if I go South or North, with at least 200-300k a day when I'm there, how many miracle (I will believe in those when I fucking see them) 30 minute fillups is that? And do you really expect me to find a Goddamn supercharger station at the Goddamn top of Scotland?

Bullcrap, that's all this is, bullcrap, further squashing or peoples liberty, that's what this is, and guys like you are so blinded by the fancy tech you fail to see that.

Electricity belongs in a Goddamn lightbulb.
 
Last edited:

Perc

Very Odd Looking Vehicular Object
Joined
Mar 31, 2008
Messages
4,790
Location
Finland
Car(s)
4x4 diesel barge
There, there, Cowboy. Here's your rocking chair and shotgun. Now have a valium.
 

Cowboy

My name is Sheridan
Joined
Mar 31, 2009
Messages
9,805
There, there, Cowboy. Here's your rocking chair and shotgun. Now have a valium.
You know the good thing about being old is that I'll be dead before this stupid Teslacult pipedream becomes a reality.
 
Last edited:

eizbaer

Forum Addict
Joined
Nov 24, 2008
Messages
5,620
Location
Aachen, Germany
Car(s)
Seat Leon
And do you really expect me to find a Goddamn supercharger station at the Goddamn top of Scotland?
yes, yes I do :p
I've seen enough stories of people (no, I don't know anyone personally - that's how "early days" of emobility it still is) doing 2500km roadtrips in EVs no problem. I will admit though, that they are "blinded by the fancy tech" enough to accept a nice and relaxing half-hour rest every now and then.

Bullcrap, that's all this is, bullcrap, further squashing or peoples liberty, that's what this is, and guys like you are so blinded by the fancy tech you fail to see that.
I'm not too happy about banning people from using ICE cars either. As you say, it's basically cutting into their liberty in a major way. I'd much rather have them be convinced by a superior product (if it can be called that - maybe not for your needs, but for others you never know) :dunno:
 

Interrobang

Forum Addict
Joined
Mar 5, 2007
Messages
8,145
Fuck. I have no idea where to start. This is ridiculously rubbish journalism (then again, Christian Science Monitor... I'm sorry I insulted journalists worldwide by comparing them to this bunch). The motion was passed, yes. And the appointed secretary has already replied in no uncertain terms that getting that done by 2025 is just overly ambitious. There are already plans in place to have 100% zero emission cars being sold by 2035, to which both the government and other parties are committed. Changing those plans one-sidedly halfway through the execution of the precursors is not just bad politics. It's bad, period.
2035 also sounds a lot more realistic than 2025.
 

MWF

Now needs wood
Joined
May 29, 2008
Messages
27,769
Location
MWF HQ, Ukadia
Car(s)
MX-5 1.8i Indiana SE, update pending
Your post shows exactly the problem I was addressing... it is filled with outdated half knowledge and prejudice :|

The thing is... you don't have to plug the damn thing in for 8 hours every 300km. There's perfectly usable solutions that let you charge some 300k (to stick to that number) in less than half an hour :dunno: The only problem is that sufficient infrastructure simply isn't out there yet (in big enough numbers), which currently makes long trips in EVs comfortable only if you plan them ahead. Then again, there are lovely Apps and GPS solutions that do exactly that for you.

Hard facts: taking Teslas superchargers since those are the only real quick chargers out there in the field at the moment (imo): 300km are between 45-60 kWh. The supercharger can deliver up to 135kW, which lets you charge 60 kWh in ~30 minutes (taking into account some energy loss along the way). Audi/Porsche are talking about installing 350kW chargers, which would deliver ~400km of range in less than 15 minutes.
Regarding said infrastructure density for Germany (simply because I know some numbers): there are currently some 14.000 fuel stations in Germany - if we had the same sort of number of quick chargers (or even more, if you equate monetary value of the infrastructure, plus every fuel station can usually service 4-8 cars at a time) you'd never run into any problems regarding your charging needs. Yes, your fuel stop will be 15-30 minutes (depending on what kind of charging infrastructure you use) instead of 5-10, but that is a break-time I think most people could live with every 3 hours or so... If you can't, that's up to you of course.

Additional thought: how often do you actually go distances longer than 300 or 400km in one day? I know I do that maybe once a month, usually for work. A few more times a year for holiday... those few times, I can live with having to wait an additional half an hour in total. The EV makes up for that in other respects, I can assure you :) Also EVs don't have to be glorified golf carts - most of the early models were, sure, but more and more serious offerings are arriving on the market. With plummeting battery prices (and you have to call it that - iirc battery prices have gone down to about 1/6 of what they were 6 or 7 years ago), long range EVs (say 300+ km) are becoming more and more affordable, so the number of trips that actually require quick charging infrastructure will actually decrease (for each individual that is).
OK but riddle me this. I get pissed off if I pull into a filling station and can't drive straight up to a pump and have to wait while some idiot gets back into their car and farts about for 5 minutes before eventually driving away. And filling a car up with fuel takes no more than 5 minutes if you have your wits about you and there is a pump free.

Now how do you think people are going to react when they schedule their rest/charging stop to find all charging stations full and they have to wait an hour or more before they can even plug in to start their 30-60 minutes charge?

I've said it before and will continue to do so until I am blue in the face. The only way electric vehicles are going to work for the majority in the future is if we create a reliable hydrogen infrastructure for FCEVs. If we achieve that then we can plug them in at work and at home to provide reliable power for businesses and houses instead of wasting huge amounts of energy overcoming the resistance of HT cable to transmit electricity from the source to where it's needed. Then renewables will come into their own because they can be used all the time to produce hydrogen which is easily stored and transported so when their output exceeds demand as happens quite frequently in Denmark that surplus isn't wasted.
 

Spectre

The Deported
Joined
Feb 1, 2007
Messages
36,796
Location
Dallas, Texas
Car(s)
00 4Runner | 02 919 | 87 XJ6 | 86 CB700SC
In 20 years' time, yes I do.
They would actually have to get electricity there first. :p

That said, I think they should try this because 1) it's not anywhere near me and 2) we'll get hard, real world demonstrations of the required infrastructure needed to make your entire vehicle fleet electric - and I don't recall the Netherlands having either the grid or the generating capacity or the plans to correct either that will be needed for an all electric fleet. Remember, this is the country that just last year lost part of one substation and half the country went dark. I'm thinking they don't exactly have a lot of excess generation capability or a particularly robust grid. Now they want to add literally millions of new 6-140+kW consuming devices. I wonder what's going to happen.

No, wait, I don't. But I bet there's going to be a lot of surprised greenies in Europe. Cold, shivering greenies in the dark, wondering when the lights are going to come back on.

Relevant reading: http://alumni.berkeley.edu/california-magazine/just-in/2014-11-05/supercharging-more-electric-cars-risks-crashing-grid-heres

Money quote:
Traditionally, Moura says, cities? electric and transportation grids remain separate, but with the advent of electric vehicles, the networks are ?colliding.? The collision couldn?t be clearer than Moura?s example of a supercharging Tesla coming online, which he says would ?feel? to the grid as if 120 houses came online for only half an hour. ?It?s like an entire neighborhood popping up in the middle of a city, and then disappearing,? he says.
And that's just *one* car. If you make that, say, 1000 Teslas as would seem reasonable in a country that size, that's equivalent to 120,000 homes worth of load being dumped on the grid. Think it can handle that?
 
Last edited:

JimCorrigan

Well-Known Member
Joined
Jul 13, 2011
Messages
4,098
Location
Pacific Rim
Car(s)
HMCS Velvet Glove; The Last Samurai
Let us not forget the riots that will take place when homeowners find that their electricity bills shoot up 5-10 fold because of the miracle that is the electric car.

These idiots can pass all the legislature they want. It ain't happening. Or, it will happen, but get reversed in a hurry.
 

narf

Sgt. Maj. Buzzkill
DONOR
Joined
Feb 1, 2008
Messages
18,168
Location
Kiel/Wherever, Germany
Car(s)
'19 BMW M240i
If you make that, say, 1000 Teslas as would seem reasonable in a country that size, that's equivalent to 120,000 homes worth of load being dumped on the grid. Think it can handle that?
Sure, if done smartly. For every currently supercharging Tesla there would be dozens of cars connected while parked that aren't charging... Most cars are parked most of the time, and assuming an all electric infrastructure, parked cars would be plugged into the grid. The instantly available power and capacity would be mind-boggling.
 
Top