Rumour Mill: Netherlands looks to ban all non-electric cars by 2025

[GRtak]

Bio fuels will also play a role in our futures. The ICE is not going anywhere soon, but it will be used in different ways.

 

[calvinhobbes]

In a tiny county sure, how about Germany?

Apparently, that's about 60%. In the motherland of the automobile, no less, where investing into railways is seen as a bit of an affront towards the key industry. Switzerland, where building tracks is not exactly easy or cheap, is just about 100% electric.

Or India?

38.04% in 2014 (source)

Not even bringing US and Canada into this.

Not exactly the paragons of railway infrastructure, are they?

 

[Matt2000]

I'm torn when it comes to electrified railways, I recently heard that when it's cold and icy they have to slow the trains down to avoid damaging the overhead line or the pantograph. They aren't electrified around here and I'm happy to stay that way for now as all of the electrified lines in the area seem to be having problems.

Diesel-electric is still my preference for power source where electric propulsion is concerned.

 

[prizrak]

Apparently, that's about 60%. In the motherland of the automobile, no less, where investing into railways is seen as a bit of an affront towards the key industry. Switzerland, where building tracks is not exactly easy or cheap, is just about 100% electric.


38.04% in 2014 (source)

Do either cover enough to essentially not need anything but local trucking?

Not exactly the paragons of railway infrastructure, are they?

Dunno about Canadia but yeah US has nothing....

US moves a shit ton of freight by rail.

Either way to achieve what narf is talking about you would have to:
1-Fully electrify the entire rail network (and don't forget that would also mean things like mining trains that are not part of a general freight/passenger network)
2:
a)Build out more railways to essentially replacing long distance trucking with local trucking OR
b)Build out a completely new and separate network to electrify all major highways
3-Have a worldwide standard for using the above
4-Have all continental railways connected otherwise BEV trucks couldn't do international shipping.

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I'm torn when it comes to electrified railways, I recently heard that when it's cold and icy they have to slow the trains down to avoid damaging the overhead line or the pantograph. They aren't electrified around here and I'm happy to stay that way for now as all of the electrified lines in the area seem to be having problems.

Diesel-electric is still my preference for power source where electric propulsion is concerned.

Yep, when Sandy hit there were a lot of commuter and freight lines out of commission and a lot of people lost power, hell with flood in Houston right now there are a ton of people out of power. This is really the risk with having a single point of failure, and with wires a failure in any part between terminals means entire line is down.

Hell don't even need major disasters, in the North East people lose power routinely over the winter due to snow and ice build up on the wires. NYC is mostly immune since all infrastructure is under ground.

 

[MWF]

How much does 4 humans cost?

 

[prizrak]

How much does 4 humans cost?

Depends on age, race and what you are looking for

 

[MWF]

Depends on age, race and what you are looking for

You missed the reference I guess.

 

[calvinhobbes]

Do either cover enough to essentially not need anything but local trucking?

Err... did this conversation shift from passenger cars to freight? If so, I missed it, I was talking about passenger transport.

Dunno about Canadia but yeah US has nothing....

I didn't say you don't have anything.

US moves a shit ton of freight by rail.

Well-known fact, yes, but see above.

 

[prizrak]

Err... did this conversation shift from passenger cars to freight? If so, I missed it, I was talking about passenger transport.

It shifted to suitability of BEV's for applications outside of personal transport. Everyone is concentrating on Teslas and such but realistically BEVs can only replace a portion of cars that are currently used for personal transportation and is completely useless in just about all other applications.

 

[Cowboy]

That he is. He drives a big truck, dislikes French speaking people, and lives within the Bud Light capitol of the world .

Eh? Bud light? I obviously know what it is but I have never seen one here in my life, we make our own, and that actually tastes like beer

 

[Cellos88GT]

Not exactly the paragons of railway infrastructure, are they?

For moving people, no. For moving freight, yes.

 

[narf]

Then you are missing out on certain benefits of electric motors.

Nothing says you can't have a microhybrid with a capacitor or small battery, small generator/motor for slow traffic, parking, boost, and a methane (= natural gas) powered ICE.
Most benefits from the electric motor such as regenerative braking, no ICE in stop-start traffic, etc.? Check.
Renewable fuel? Check.
Existing fuelling infrastructure? Check.
Fast refuels? Check.
Long ranges? Check.
Existing technology? Check on the car side, some research to be done on the fuel production side.

In a tiny county sure, how about Germany? Or India? Not even bringing US and Canada into this. But I was really thinking worldwide, after all we are being told that fossil fuels are running out and best we are given is BEV.

Virtually all major routes in Germany are electrified, most non-electrified routes are low-volume. Prime movers for freight are all electric, thousands of them throughout continental Europe, around 4-7MW of power each... and yet, the grid doesn't flail around if those put the dimmer switch to the metal.

P.S. You are also suggesting electrifying roadways, so at least doubling of the current network in NL

Electrifying major routes is a way to make overhead-line / battery hybrid trucks a reality. A relatively small battery gets you to the highway, you cover the long distance on the overhead line while recharging the battery, the then-full battery gets you to your destination. The vast majority of energy consumed would skip the battery, hence skipping another layer of efficiency loss. The battery wouldn't need its own trailer to be hauled.
Working prototypes exist already, we have the technology. First real-world use could be in mines, or on trunk routes connecting two freight hubs. Rolling out on a national scale, even in NL, would take a long time.
Looking at how much a kilometre of Autobahn costs to build and maintain, I doubt adding overhead power would be a huge increase... and it'd be a source of revenue.

Also that BEV is a niche solution.

In my mind, the future needs a set of niche solutions applied where they work best. Looking for a one-size-fits-all magic bullet isn't the answer, neither is discarding a solution just because it doesn't work in 100% of all scenarios.

 

[narf]

Either way to achieve what narf is talking about you would have to:
1-Fully electrify the entire rail network (and don't forget that would also mean things like mining trains that are not part of a general freight/passenger network)

Why would you have to cover 100%? Covering the vast majority of the busiest lines would be enough and starting with a few super-dense stretches first would do. For example, if I take the train from Kiel towards the North Sea coast that's a single-track non-electrified rail through rural regions. That's not going to be electrified any time soon, and there's little need to. No significant freight, only a few very light local passenger trains. Running such a scenario on liquid fuels (some day possibly of renewable origin) is the most efficient option.
Additionally, recovering the vast amounts of fossil fuel used on the busiest lines leaves enough diesel to power those light trains for centuries.
Also, it's fairly easy to build dual-mode dieselelectric locomotives that have a diesel generator and a pantograph to pick up power. Use electricity where overhead lines exist, fall back to diesel where it doesn't. Same with hybrid trolley-type trucks or buses... those ease the gradual reduction in fossil fuel use without the "omg we will have to electrify every single metre of road before this makes sense" black-and-white mentality.

2:
a)Build out more railways to essentially replacing long distance trucking with local trucking OR
b)Build out a completely new and separate network to electrify all major highways

Why do you need a new and separate road network?

3-Have a worldwide standard for using the above

Again, why do you need that? Rail in most of continental Europe works well despite several standards for overhead power lines.
I'd prefer one standard to rule them all of course, but I don't see how not having one standard should stop progress.

4-Have all continental railways connected otherwise BEV trucks couldn't do international shipping.

Trucks don't need railways at all... that being said, our railways already are connected. There even are freight trains running from China to Western Europe... though not fully electrified (yet?).

 

[prizrak]

Nothing says you can't have a microhybrid with a capacitor or small battery, small generator/motor for slow traffic, parking, boost, and a methane (= natural gas) powered ICE.
Most benefits from the electric motor such as regenerative braking, no ICE in stop-start traffic, etc.? Check.
Renewable fuel? Check.
Existing fuelling infrastructure? Check.
Fast refuels? Check.
Long ranges? Check.
Existing technology? Check on the car side, some research to be done on the fuel production side.

So no point in BEVs at all then.

Looking at how much a kilometre of Autobahn costs to build and maintain, I doubt adding overhead power would be a huge increase... and it'd be a source of revenue.

How often does roadway surface collapse under icy conditions? Also imagine the friction those lines will have to deal with when you are running literally millions of cars/trucks through them at autobahn speeds at that. I doubt railroads have as much volume per mile as your autobahns do. Additionally how often are those batteries going to have to be changed when put into trucks? Also what are we doing for marine shipping? That moves a crapload of freight as well.

In my mind, the future needs a set of niche solutions applied where they work best. Looking for a one-size-fits-all magic bullet isn't the answer, neither is discarding a solution just because it doesn't work in 100% of all scenarios.

Right now we have an almost solution for one niche and 0 for all others. Also NL is clearly trying to make an almost solution be an everything solution.

Additionally, recovering the vast amounts of fossil fuel used on the busiest lines leaves enough diesel to power those light trains for centuries.

At a cost of what exactly? If we are talking fully renewable energy generation along with a mostly electrified road/rail network demand is going to be way too low for economies of scale.

Why do you need a new and separate road network?

Not road network, electric network.

Again, why do you need that? Rail in most of continental Europe works well despite several standards for overhead power lines.
I'd prefer one standard to rule them all of course, but I don't see how not having one standard should stop progress.

Not just rail, road as well. You need to standardize the pantographs and voltage, amperage, etc.. in order for a complete interconnectivity.

Trucks don't need railways at all... that being said, our railways already are connected. There even are freight trains running from China to Western Europe... though not fully electrified (yet?).

In your suggestion they need overhead lines, they have to be interconnected.

 

[calvinhobbes]

It shifted to suitability of BEV's for applications outside of personal transport.

Ah, alright then.

Everyone is concentrating on Teslas and such but realistically BEVs can only replace a portion of cars that are currently used for personal transportation and is completely useless in just about all other applications.

I wouldn't say it's completely useless, but to be honest, I'd rather leave the debate on e.g. trucks powered by exchangeable batteries to other people.

 

[narf]

Also what are we doing for marine shipping?

Did you know it's really hard to send a man to the moon on a battery-powered rocket? How will we ever get to Mars?

 

[prizrak]

Did you know it's really hard to send a man to the moon on a battery-powered rocket? How will we ever get to Mars?

Are rockets using ICE now? In fact they don't even use fossil fuels. You are talking about replacing ICE and weening humans off of fossil fuels, you are also saying:

In my mind, the future needs a set of niche solutions applied where they work best.

So BEV *might* work in personal transportation niche once charge times, distance and battery longevity are improved. So then where is the solution for all other aspect of transportation? FCEV could be that solution, because it actually does scale beyond personal transportation and could even use current infrastructure with some modifications. It also has an added bonus to having all transportation battery ready *if* the mythical battery breakthrough actually does arrive. So again why bother wasting resources on a solution that works for a fraction over one that works for all?*

*Well I guess aside from jets.

 

[narf]

In fact they don't even use fossil fuels.

Eh wha? This Saturn V is burning RP-1, essentially kerosene, in its first stage and liquid hydrogen in the second and third stage... given that 96% of today's hydrogen is made from fossil fuels, I'd count that as burning fossil fuels as well.

Wanna go more modern? SpaceX's Merlin engines run on RP-1.

More Russian? This Soyuz is powered by RG-1, basically Russian RP-1.

Wonder what propellant is in that big red tank...

Liquid hydrogen, pretty much purely from fossil fuels.

I'll give you the STS's SRBs though, too lazy to research if there's significant fossil fuels involved in making those.

 

[GRtak]

Also what are we doing for marine shipping?

 

[prizrak]

Netherlands looks to ban all non-electric cars by 2025

Eh wha? This Saturn V is burning RP-1, essentially kerosene, in its first stage and liquid hydrogen in the second and third stage... given that 96% of today's hydrogen is made from fossil fuels, I'd count that as burning fossil fuels as well.

Wanna go more modern? SpaceX's Merlin engines run on RP-1.

More Russian? This Soyuz is powered by RG-1, basically Russian RP-1.

Wonder what propellant is in that big red tank...

Liquid hydrogen, pretty much purely from fossil fuels.

I'll give you the STS's SRBs though, too lazy to research if there's significant fossil fuels involved in making those.

H is not a fossil fuel derivative, it *can* be gotten that way but in itself isn't a fossil fuel. If you want to go that route everything used fossil fuels. Solar panels, windmill parts, hydro parts all use fossil fuels somewhere in the chain.

Either way, unlike marine shipping space exploration is not a significant user of said fossil fuels (simply because we don't launch that much shit).

Wow such progress, sails!