New Andy Wilman post!

[Mercury]

I loved what he said. He addressed pretty much every problem we've stated here but he addressed the problems from their side. People have a hard time placing themselves in the shoes of the people who actually make the show and for Andy to say that they're still doing what they think will be fun and not what some suit in an office thinks will be good TV is great news for me.

I'm having a bit of a hard time believing the show is barely scripted cause...well...it has to be at it's current format, but I'm not one of those who believe it to be 95% scripted. There is some scripting no doubt but this isn't a sitcom.

This season had some very nice moments so far ("You Fat Bastard" being chanted comes to mind) and a few segments I loved, yes there have been some boring bits but this is the 14th season, we must expect some kind of repetition or less than brilliant bits. Bottom line, this is still one of the best shows on TV as far as I'm concerned.

 

[kunedog]

It astounds me that there are still people who believe in the Alabama attack (I refer of course to people like those on this site who have access to recorded eps, not those who just saw it once without the chance to review). Do you guys also watch those haunted house TV "reality" shows? You'll find all the same tricks there that the TG crew used. Do you believe in all the amateur UFO vids you see? Admittedly, even those at least provide some visual fakery to look at, instead of cutting the video to black and just telling you the aliens are here.

You're the one making the assertion. Back it up.

To the contrary, Top Gear asserts they were attacked, so it is (way, way past) time for them to provide proof. Some footage of the attackers in the act of attacking isn't too much to ask for, especially since they had the place covered by a professional film crew.

5) The alternative is to believe they pre-arranged and paid that woman to come out shouting and for someone off camera (maybe the team themselves) to throw some stones & rocks. Not impossible but my simple human instinct for reading how these people work says that doesn't seem right. Hoist a dead cow onto a car roof for a laugh - yes, stage a potential assault for extra drama - no.

Complete strawman. They obviously didn't pay any locals to do anything fake . . . because they didn't do anything worth faking! The attack was wholly an invention of the voiceover and your imagination filling in the (massive) gaps in what TG showed you (see the reference to haunted house shows above). Yes, she came out to yell something at the crew; the interesting question is what? It sounded to me like she was telling them not to damage her asphalt/concrete (perhaps by junkers scraping it or leaking oil everywhere). Hmm, doesn't TG also carry a professional sound crew everywhere too? Guess they also abandoned their jobs the instant it served the script to do so.

While asked of idk, I hope you shall indulge my answering it, as well.

For me, I could believe in 2005 that they did not intentionally choose a hotel in Paris to provide the set of "challenges" they faced trying to exit it (the steepness of the ramp, the narrowness and the lack of clearance on the curb-to-street transition).

But after Series 13, I found it difficult to believe that in 2009 they did not intentionally chose to pick a location they knew would give them "challenges".

Mr. Wilman called it "the end of innocence" and I think he is right. I am no longer able to suspend my sense of disbelief with the latest series as I was with earlier series, even if in fact they were all just as thoroughly planned out beforehand as some claim Series 13 and 14 are.

This is the sad, long-term consequence of faking stuff, and one I tried to explain to the "faithful" after the American special aired. I again cite the Sabine van segment. What if the producers had lied and said she beat Clarkson's time, and then you found out about it? Would you ever take any of the challenges seriously again?

The segment also illustrates another problem that's mentioned here. It was riveting TV even though she failed, and not at all a case of her "not even trying," as CD82 put it. The writers gave us the premise up front, not the conclusion.

Oh, and to the people who say they're trying to please everyone . . . is there anyone out there who likes to see poorly faked group assaults? Is there really
some dude giddy with anticipation for the South American special, hoping they'll do it again? "Oh boy, oh boy, maybe they'll cut to a black screen for FIVE MINUTES this time!! It'll be so sweet!!!"

 

[shellygrrl]

I dont understand why people are criticizing them so much.

BECAUSE I KNOW THEY CAN DO BETTER THAN I'M SEEING! (Yes, I typed that in all-caps and bolded it on purpose.)

I may have been a fan for only a year and a half or so, but I've watched a lot of this show in that time (earliest full series: 4; earliest episode: 2x01). I do see a difference.

The few episodes I've seen from Series 2 were fairly dull, IMO. 3x09 (their "budget show" for that series) was a bit better. Then came Series 4; and the boys began to find their groove. Five and six came. I found those excellent. Most of us find Series 7 to be the best of the lot, virtually pitch perfect -- a very good mix of cars and even some arsing about. Next was Series 8. Not as spectacular as its predecessor, but still watchable (to me, at least).

Then Richard went upside down.

Series 9 was very slapdash -- my least favourite. I chalk it up to an attempt to give everyone who thought TG should go bye-bye because of what'd happened, not to mention all the show's longtime haters, The Finger (or Two), saying "Hamster's alive! We're still here! We're still going to arse about! LOSERS!" But it didn't work for me. (Nor did it work for some others here.) While I don't blame the accident directly, nor do I blame Richard himself, I wonder if The Crash was in the back of people's minds when putting episodes together.

After Series 9, they took a bit of a break. It was the best thing to happen. From that break, we got the Polar Special (truly epic and still my favourite of the specials) and, eventually, Series 10. Like Series 7, S10 provided an excellent mix of cars and arsing about.

I'm not certain what happened in the late winter and spring of 2008; but when Series 11 aired I was left feeling a bit underwhelmed. While it had some gems (race across Japan, CLK Black review), it left me a bit...wanting. I thought Series 12 was better.

But with filming some of the studio bits for S12 came the "local" (read: London, Birmingham, Dublin) Top Gear Live shows. After S12 came the TG Live tour. Plus, James and Richard had a plethora of other projects going between them (S2 of Engineering Connections, James's moon doc(s), prepping for Toy Stories, etc.).

I found Series 13 to be a bit of a roller coaster ride, and not in a good way. So far I'm finding more of the same with Series 14. Once again, they had to do the "local" TG Live shows. This time, though, when S14 started, they weren't even finished filming everything they needed to. (For the first time since S9, there was no preview montage.) Not to mention -- to me, at least -- they didn't think things through regarding some of the edits. Some of the pieces in both series were much too long (Scirocco ads, electric car (only one segment would've sufficed), art gallery), and the last two I mentioned were too contrived.

I'm concerned that the trio are wearing themselves too thin. I'm concerned the crew are wearing themselves out as well. Andy mentioned at Edinburgh this summer that he would spend hours upon hours, after everyone else had gone home, in the editing suite trying to get everything right; I'm concerned his fastidiousness in that regard hasn't been up to snuff. I'm starting to be concerned that Series 15 will be more of the same.

They need a break. (On a lighter note in that regard, do they really want the Beeb to try to slot them in somewhere amidst the 2010 World Cup (presuming BBC Two will be airing coverage of that)?)

As for the qualms and fury directed to Andy's blog post, I do understand where you're coming from. You think he let you down, especially since it came the day of 14x05 (which even I agree was quite rubbish!).

But at the same time, I also understand what Andy is saying. I'm a creative person, too. Anything creative I do and have done, I've done mainly for me, not for other people. If I share my work with someone and they like it, it's a bonus. If I get constructive criticism, I take it into consideration. Sometimes I'll follow the advice; sometimes I won't.

You know the quote: "You can please some of the people all of the time and all of the people some of the time, but you can?t please all of the people all of the time."? It applies here, I think. Some here don't have an issue with TG and that's fine. Some of us do; that's also fine.

However, I don't take very well to being told to "stop watching!" or even to stop being so bloody critical, simply because I, and others, do have a critical opinion. Just because one is critical of TG doesn't mean they hate it. They just don't like how it is right now and want them to make some tweaks. I'm not ready to abandon TG; I want to stick around and see if they can bounce back again. I want to see that great balance of cars and cocking about that I saw in Series 7 and 10 to return. I want to be inspired by seeing three blokes sharing the joys of motoring or doing something mad with a car again. I don't want to lose hope for this.

 

[LP]

^ I think that's a /thread or even a /summary of the entity that is Top Gear.

Bravo

 

[MamesJay]

How on earth is that a bad thing? The camera work and the gloss they put on the shots in post production have always been among the things that makes the show great. The entire industry recognizes TG as one of the most beautifully produced shows on television. What good could changing that possibly do?

The word I want to stretch is; pathetic.

There is a technique in photography called "High Dynamic Range" (or HDR). Look it up on Google images.
HDR is not used on Top Gear, but it is the perfect example for what I'm talking about.
The first time you see HDR photographies you think "this is the greatest thing ever".
But if you have any sense for aesthetics, that should wear out really quick.
All those doomsday scenarios...
People taking a picture of their cat, and making it look like the end of the world.
It's all overdone and blown out of proportion. It's like a simpletons approach to art.
You might as well take honey, and smear it right into your eyes.

Top Gear has been using post production techniques (that are usually found in motion pictures) for the longest.
It used to be a touch-up, just the right addition, to give it a certain mood. And that was perfect.
These days, the effects and filters are not used to emphasize a mood or a scenario anymore.
The effects have become the story themselves, totally oblivious to any reality, or footage that has been shot in the first place.
It's not a clever artistic expression anymore, it is "post production, having their heads up their arse".

Imagine Jeremy saying the following in a dramatic tone:
"It's the mighty Fiat Panda".
"The car that changed it all".

-Scene with a Fiat Panda, in an HDR look-
-Background music: O Fortuna - Carmina Burana

Now add fire, lightning, and a unicorn, to the scenario.

That's what I call pathetic.
You can make 'shopping for groceries' look like a Gladiator movie. But doing that doesn't make you a genius. Far from it.

And that is, by the way, the problem I have with those 'car tests' on the airfield.
Those tests don't give me any feeling for the cars that are shown.
Because with the right camera angles and shots, any car can look like a masterpiece.

When they still did the road tests, you could at least see how the car appears in the real world.
And every one of the three guys would have their own approach, when testing a car.
Clarkson in a Mercedes AMG, Hammond in a Pagani Zonda Roadster, or May with a toned down appeal, testing some family vehicle.


-


BTW, with all my critiques, I want to make it clear that it's not the three guys I have a problem with.
"The News" was the only part of the last show I watched in full.
I still like them, talking, and goofing around.

When the show returns to the pointless Prime-Time-Circus it has become, that's when I zone out.

 

[alexapi32]

If Top Gear dies, I die with it...or a part of me dies

 

[EyeMWing]

This is the second time in just a few weeks I've seen this kind of thing come from a TV producer - the other one being Stargate's Joe Malozzi - fan forums aflame with criticisms about how things aren't like they used to be etc. etc. etc. followed by an epic blogpost by the producer acknowledging the complaints "but we aren't going to fix it."

I don't think this is so much a problem with the quality of the programming - in fact I'm rather certain it's not - Top Gear is still incredible, Stargate Universe is incredible, but neither are the same as what came before. What this actually looks like is a fundamental shift in the way we relate to television, for better or for worse. There's a huge demand from a certain portion of the TV viewing audience for "Democracy in TV". Given media industry's obsessions with social media, I'd not be surprised if it comes soon to a TV near you - but IMO that'll turn out just as badly as the reality TV craze did. In other words, it'll garner amazing ratings and rave reviews, but be totally useless television.

Massive props to Andy and every other content creator who has the integrity to uphold their own vision in the face of sheer wankery.

 

[controlspecimen]

Not to mention -- to me, at least -- they didn't think things through regarding some of the edits. Some of the pieces in both series were much too long (Scirocco ads, electric car (only one segment would've sufficed), art gallery), and the last two I mentioned were too contrived.

Excellent point. There were a number of segments recently that I thought had a great premise, but the execution left me a bit cold. The length definitely had something to do with it. The Scirocco ad and the Commie Cars pieces immediately spring to mind as segments that should have been cut down significantly.

My first reaction to that is: do more stuff in the studio! Like they used to do before their budget got enormous. Cool wall, longer news segments, do one of those random things like "UK" and "No Way". Those were funny, informative, and the presenters were being their natural selves and it was great to watch.

However, their studio segments ever since Season 10 have been dreadful in my opinion. They painfully follow a (not very good) script, and the guys are not actors. They are absolutely at their worst cartoon versions of themselves when they're in the studio. I think maybe they and Andy know this, which is why there has been less and less of this. Richard is especially hopeless; his mumbles are barely audible and his responses are usually along the lines of "Oh God" or "No!" in response to something Jeremy did. Terrible. He absolutely lost his wit after the accident.

 

[bolly]

OMG EyeMWing. That's the second really good post I've read today! Better watch out or you'll get neg-repped for showing some intellect

All joking aside, I think you've really hit on something there. In these days of 'democratised new media', so many people seem to think they have a right to tell content producers how to make their stuff, or believe they should attain some influence or ownership over content just because there were an 'early adopter' or a regular forum poster. Obviously, that's a delusional belief.

 

[shellygrrl]

My first reaction to that is: do more stuff in the studio! Like they used to do before their budget got enormous. Cool wall, longer news segments, do one of those random things like "UK" and "No Way". Those were funny, informative, and the presenters were being their natural selves and it was great to watch.

I loved it when the Cool Wall came up multiple times a series. The last time that happened was Series 8. I'm also wondering why we're not seeing any cut news segments.

[Richard] absolutely lost his wit after the accident.

I think his wit shows up more in his writing these days; I don't think it's gone. Not to mention of the trio, Richard has the most on his plate--adverts, Total Wipeout, Blast Lab (which is his "baby"), Invisible World (new show coming to BBC One in the new year), TG Live, the telly show itself, a family and loads of animals to tend to.

 

[liquid_rockface]

I don't think people are really giving Andy's post a proper read. I see a lot of comments in the positive and they don't seem to really get what Andy is saying.

In essence he says he knows there are some complaints, he recognizes them, now fuck off, he's going to keep doing things his way.

He talks about how they try to keep doing new and innovative things. I don't buy that. When the boys get together for a film you already know what's going to happen. Jeremy will be bombastic and have really stupid ideas, James will be pedantic and boring, but not incompetent, and Richard will be ambitious, but ignorant. These qualities will lead to inevitable failure at whatever they are attempting to achieve.

The films in which all three are present are no longer films where the boys get in some cars and have a good time. The films are now sitcoms, where nearly every moment of fun is scripted, where the spontaneity is scripted in the hopes of recreating the genuinely fun and brilliant moments of real spontaneity in the films during the first half of New Top Gear's life.

So really Andy isn't trying to do anything new. He's just trying to recreate what worked in the early series. He's repeating the same formula, the characters (they aren't really presenters anymore) are limited to the shallow depth of their charactitures, and only newboys find any of it entertaining because they lack the knowledge of just how much better it can be when those moments of spontaneity are real.

It's like kids being a fan of auto-tuned Britney Spears songs because they never heard real singers with actual talent; they just don't know any better.

And as will befall all bubble-gum pop stars, the short attention spans of these newboys will lead them away from TG for something else (X Factor) and the ratings will plummet. And if by then Andy's alienated all the original fans, the true and diehard fans, who the hell is going to be left to keep the series going?

It is a train-wreck that the original fans can see coming a hundred miles away and we're desperately trying to get Andy to drive TG off the crossing before the train comes through. But he's chosen to tell all those waving their HiVi jackets at him to fuck off.

It's sad really.

You're 100% correct! I don't know why people seem so upbeat about his blog. Basically he said "You think our current format is rubbish, we think it's brilliant so we'll keep doing it."

Wilman said:

So although not many on Final Gear liked the electric car, we actually loved it, and we?ll make more of those any time we get the right idea.

That's it basically summed up. You don't like it, we don't care because we like it and we are "passionate" about it so we'll do it.

I find that really hard to believe. Did they honestly and truly think that that absolutely rubbish segment on the electric car (in my opinion their worst "challenge" ever) was great television? I don't buy it...it's almost as if they are deliberately committing suicide in order to end the show, but that doesn't really make sense either, does it?

 

[shellygrrl]

I'm okay with Andy's blog post because:

1) I understand what he's saying from a creative side -- you create for yourself first and foremost. If others like it, great; if they don't, whatever; if they criticise, you at least listen to what they're saying (maybe take things on board, maybe not).

2) He actually took the time to address the concerns. If he didn't do so, that would've been a "fuck you", IMO. The fact he did says to me that he is at least listening to us, that he has at least some understanding of what the criticisms are and why. How many other shows out there in production now have a producer (or even anyone involved with it, for that matter) that is willing to address any concerns its fan base has? You may not agree with what Andy said, but at least he said something, which--like I said--is a damn site better than nothing.

How would you have felt if, back at the end of Series 9, Jeremy didn't write his column about his conundrum regarding what to do next?

A lot of us didn't like the electric car film for whatever reason (they approached it wrong, too long a film, too contrived, whatever). The TG gang did. They may do something similar again; but we don't know whether it'll be shite or not if they don't at least try.

 

[shad_68]

One thing that struck me as quite odd about Wilman's article was that he said "we acknowledge the criticism, but we won't necessarily do anything about it, because this is what we want to do". Why is this odd? Because then I remembered a little bit from the Mallorca Rally, where Jeremy and Richard agreed that they enjoyed it, since they could "be a car person again" in that environment...
(Yes I know, that could've just been a set up conversation in the script as well, yadda yadda.)

So I can't help but wonder, is S14 what they really, genuinely want to do, or is what they want to do, because they think it'll appeal to the crowd? :?

 

[Dr_Grip]

One thing that struck me as quite odd about Wilman's article was that he said "we acknowledge the criticism, but we won't necessarily do anything about it, because this is what we want to do". Why is this odd? Because then I remembered a little bit from the Mallorca Rally, where Jeremy and Richard agreed that they enjoyed it, since they could "be a car person again" in that environment...
(Yes I know, that could've just been a set up conversation in the script as well, yadda yadda.)

So I can't help but wonder, is S14 what they really, genuinely want to do, or is what they want to do, because they think it'll appeal to the crowd? :?

The contradiction is even in the post itself, as Andy writes about James and Jezza wanting to focus more on cars (it's where he talks about the Lancia segment).

 

[suggsygirl]

A lot of us didn't like the electric car film for whatever reason (they approached it wrong, too long a film, too contrived, whatever). The TG gang did. They may do something similar again; but we don't know whether it'll be shite or not if they don't at least try.

I had a bit of a ding-dong with someone who shall remain nameless on the comments to Andy's blog and I got a bt of flak from people who assumed I was criticising the people criticising, that I'm one of those people who can't stand anything negative written about the show, but that's untrue because what you've said in this post and in others makes perfect sense, I don't agree with some things you've said but they're your opinions and are completely valid.

Personally I enjoyed the electric car thing, along with Lancia film I thought it was one of the best bits of this series but I understand why other people didn't like it.

Thank you for not doing what the person on the comments page did, assume that your opinion is right and that therefore everyone else is wrong and think that you're therefore speaking for everyone that matters.

You rock.

 

[HITMAN]

Cheers to Andy for his blog post, its honest, making a show as 'loved' as TopGear would be both extremely rewarding but also bloody hard work coming up with new material and ideas that raise the bar higher than they've been previously set.

And lets face it, TG has set the bar very, very high in many of their films and specials. Taking chances and exploring other motoring themes (like the art gallery) definately aren't safe choices for appealing to the hardcore TG fans. But I'd rather the variety of new, rather than let the show get stale with endlessly repeating the same old. Even when that same old, is very very entertaining.

I do think they are listening to us (the fans) more than we realise, so a TG film ideas thread or something wouldn't hurt. I mean if we're complaining about the direction of S14, why not put forth ideas for making 15 the best season ever.

 

[shellygrrl]

^ There's already a suggestions thread here (it's stickied).