New cars are better in every way... ?

[targa_997]

Newer cars are better in every way on paper, however there is something I think they are missing: passion.

I don't care how harder they accelerate or how faster they take corners, most of the time I'm not racing against someone else and the only thing I can judge driving them is the pleasure they gave me, how entertained I am.

Perhaps oldies are more dangerous to drive, thus giving more adrenaline. Maybe the smell form their engine or exhaust strenghten the feeling of driving a car rather than cruising or even worst: being driven by the car.

Anyway my heart ticked much faster and stronger while driving oldies than sterilized modern cars, and this is what matters for me.

Listing the cars that helps your decision for this poll would be a must, for me they are:

'89 Peugeot 205 GTi 1.9
'86 BMW 325i Sport
'89 Porsche 911 Carrera 4


P.S.: I don't consider track day cars or supercars while saying that.

 

[Svempa]

I owned a 205 GTi 1.9 for a while and it's such a good car. During that period I drove the 206 RC 180 ones too. Sure it was faster but it was just not the same. It had one big downside that I think many cars have today. I feel to distnant from the driving. There all those hi-tech ESP, TCS etc etc that simply take the involvment out of driving.
Same goes for the Integrale.

 

[mautzel]

The imperfection of a modern car is being perfect.

 

[targa_997]

Svempa you're a lucky guy with your Delta, I hope it's not too expensive to run. Right after I dropped my brother to pick up his Fiat X 1/9 in a classic car restoration garage, a wonderful red Integrale (probably an Evo) with white OZ rally-styled wheels followed me (in the 325i) at a very very fast rythm. It was really funny how neatly but vigorously he keep my pace while I was struggling to limit the oversteer.

 

[Blind_Io]

There is something to be said for both schools of thought. I think the true automotive enthusiast can see both the primitive passion of classic autos that stimulates the primal reptilian part of the brain but also appreciates the technology and refinement that has come from years of development.

Anyone who can embrace only one is limiting only themselves. So say the prophetic words of an insomniac.

 

[KaJuN]

I love how older cars were designed to look good and really didn't have safety concerns to worry about. Nothing beats the look of a chrome bumper and grille. I absolutely hate the cheap looking black plastic bumpers on some cars today (i.e. Honda Pilot). The interiors were also way better on old cars. It's amazing how beautiful the dashboards on the 50's cars were. They instruments themselves were even works of art. Nowadays it's boring gray plastic everywhere. It's like they don't even try to make it look good.

Older cars are much easier to work on too. Not only has the computer technology made things harder, it seems engines themselves have gotten progressively worse and worse to work on yourself. We have a Chevy Beretta where some spark plugs have never been changed simply because you cannot reach them.

All this being said, I do believe the auto industry is making a turnaround and we're starting to see truly beautiful cars again.

 

[targa_997]

There is something to be said for both schools of thought. I think the true automotive enthusiast can see both the primitive passion of classic autos that stimulates the primal reptilian part of the brain but also appreciates the technology and refinement that has come from years of development.

Anyone who can embrace only one is limiting only themselves. So say the prophetic words of an insomniac.

Absolutely, however it's not because you prefer black than white that you don't like grey.

Refinement is not the point of this topic, and technology does not always mean better (and I really love technology).

And in terms of design it's nowadays too marketing-oriented design, modern design probably won't last

 

[Blind_Io]

There is something to be said for both schools of thought. I think the true automotive enthusiast can see both the primitive passion of classic autos that stimulates the primal reptilian part of the brain but also appreciates the technology and refinement that has come from years of development.

Anyone who can embrace only one is limiting only themselves. So say the prophetic words of an insomniac.

Absolutely, however it's not because you prefer black than white that you don't like grey.

Refinement is not the point of this topic, and technology does not always mean better (and I really love technology).

And in terms of design it's nowadays too marketing-oriented design, modern design probably won't last

I can't argue with that, but what I'm refering to is the development of higher output engines, different drive trains, adjustable suspensions, even radial tires count.

You are entirely correct that most the cars of today are designed to be disposable and recycled. They are the PEZ Despensers of vehicles despite the fact that modern cars tend to last longer than their 1950's counterparts. Cars used to be crafted by tradesmen but are now injection blow molded like thier 1/18th scale toy counterparts. Despite this fact, I try to look at the brighter side of car design. I think the recent stagnation in auto techology is going to break at some point and I think fuel source will be the motivating factor. Right now car design still centers on internal combustion, the same form of propulsion we were using in the 1920's. Think about it, we have added electronic fuel management and even hybrid vehicles but under it all it's still the same stuff that powered the Model T. Eventually we are going to have to break the internal combustion box and open up a new realm of propulsion. It will be different and I doubt it will be as exciting as a throbbing V8 under the hood but it will happen none the less. I have no idea what form this will take, but it will be interesting to see how it develops.

Who knows, maybe we stick with internal combustion but develop an easily made synthetic fuel to take the place of gasoline.

But yeah, when it comes to the artistry of car design - I think alot has been lost. I look at what guys like Chip Foose can do with a car or even a blank piece of paper and I'm in awe. This is one of the reasons I like the 1959 Cadillac Eldorado convertible coupe: it has a huge inefficient V8, it's larger than most Japanese apartments it can't make a U-tun in anything smaller than Wyoming and it's horribly impractical for daily driving - but someone didn't just design that car, they sculpted it. It has mad tail fins that serve no purpose except to say, "I can put tail fins on here if I want to!" Going back even further to the Rolls Royce and Dusenburgs of the 1930's there's even more craftsmanship involved.

I guess that's the problem with cars comming to the masses, they are produced en mass and discarded just as easily.

 

[targa_997]

Gazoline can be easily replaced by ethanol, and diesel by rapeseed oil. It's only a political issue...

Fortunately some modern design will last, I hope (Rolls Royce Phantom, Aston Martin DB9 and V8 Vantage, Lamborghini Murcielago). But most modern cars looks so "perfect" without being beautiful, it's so boring.

 

[wooflepoof]

There really should be a middle ground type option in there

 

[un-dee]

Somehow these two options dont contradict at all, which makes the poll a bit useless, really

 

[Top Geek]

The problem with modern cars, I think, are two things:
- Too many electronic nannies
- Too much safety and driver-aid kit, both adding weight

When I'm driving a car, I should feel like I'm telling the car what to do rather than asking the car what I'm allowed to do. I hate ABS, for example. ABS is not a safety feature, it's an idiot feature. Sure, it gives you bit more control, but that's what your right leg is for. You have an ankle and a knee. They can be used synchronously to adjust the amount of brake pressure based on the combination of stopping power and control you need. This is also why I think drivers are dumber today. ABS, traction control, stability control, drive-by-wire that disables left-foot-braking and heel-and-toeing...they can all stick it. I am the driver, I should be controlling the car. Then there's creature-comfort kit; electronic windows, locks, mirrors, sat-nav, fancy stereos, electric seats, etc., etc., etc...maybe we should have manual everything so that drivers will have to -- brace yourself -- actually concentrate on driving! No blabing on your cell-phone because you need to tell all your friends about these great new pants you got or eating 1000-calorie burgers; just concentrating on the task at hand: driving.

As for safety kit, well yes, there needs to be some. Airbags, locking seatbelts and a well-built chassis with crumple-zones are good to have, but some things are just plain ridiculous, like a vehicle requiring to be able to withstand 2.5 times it's weight on it's roof! Apparently, governments are dumber these days too. Sure, rollovers will be safer, but this will make vehicles grossly top-heavy and just cause more rollovers.

Yes, older cars were better.

 

[MXM]

Somehow these two options dont contradict at all, which makes the poll a bit useless, really

Exactly Well, I voted for 2nd anyway.

 

[un-dee]

I doubt any of the guys stating how useless electronic driver aids are would react ANY better in an emergency situation. Example: You drive through a corner, suddenly a car changes onto your lane from the right. Thats a common thing to happen, and you can't tell me you'll have the right reflex to brake and at the same time carefully dose your braking so the wheels don't lock. You won't. You don't drive on a racetrack out there where everything is predictable, this is real life.

Above thing happened to me before btw, in the wet. I kept going through the corner, only the decelleration wasn't enough so I had to change lanes to not to crash into the other car (which was apparently driven by an idiot) while braking at the same time, in a corner getting narrower in the extreme wet. I spun. Without ABS I would just have gone into the guard rails and with ESP nothing would have happened at all. Also these systems add maybe 5kg to the whole car. Don't eat so much at McDonalds and you saved that again.

What annoys me is not that the cars get heavier, because it doesn't matter in most cars. It is that the supposed-to-be sporty cars get heavier as well, which just isn't good. Look at the weight of a BMW M6 or sth... theres a lot of room for improvement.

And no, drivers in the past where nowhere near better as they are today, thats why they crashed a lot more despite the fact there's much more traffic today.

 

[Blayde]

Look at the weight of a BMW M6 or sth... theres a lot of room for improvement.

The main problem with that car is the fact that its supposed to be everthing, a cruiser, a regular sports car for busi(ness)diots and also a tuned street machine, which it fails at on all counts.

 

[chaos386]

When I'm driving a car, I should feel like I'm telling the car what to do rather than asking the car what I'm allowed to do. I hate ABS, for example. ABS is not a safety feature, it's an idiot feature. Sure, it gives you bit more control, but that's what your right leg is for.

If Tiff couldn't outperform ABS, I doubt you, or any one of us, could better it. You can also use ABS in really cool ways, such as providing each wheel with a different amount of braking power, using your traction to the fullest. A good example of when this would be useful is when you're forced to the edge of the road to avoid an object, and half of your car leaves the pavement, or when you have to do an emergency stop while one side of your car goes through a puddle.

 

[MXM]

ABS, ESP and all that is good, no doubt. But just make a button that disables it all. When you WANT to lock the tires. Or want to slide the car. I think driver should be able to have that control if they want to (like track day or whatever). The only car I've seen where ABS could be disabled is the car from driving school (for educational purposes).

 

[Redliner]

I agree that all the electronic aids make the driving safer and all (and don't get me wrong, they all should have an OFF switch) but it seems to me that more and more driving cars is like playing a videogame. You don't feel like it is a mechanical thing, it is all very good and efficient but only from a transportation standpoint. You don't feel the vibration, the tiny sliding of the tires, the engaging of the gears in each gearchange, and all of this is perfectly compatible with eletronic aids.

 

[un-dee]

I don't think you need an OFF switch for ABS, but it should be a must for ESP, because that really alters the way the car drives. I can't see any use to locking the cars wheels on braking, its not even fun.

And btw, the Mk2 Golfs with ABS had ABS off switches.

 

[targa_997]

I doubt any of the guys stating how useless electronic driver aids are would react ANY better in an emergency situation. Example: You drive through a corner, suddenly a car changes onto your lane from the right. Thats a common thing to happen, and you can't tell me you'll have the right reflex to brake and at the same time carefully dose your braking so the wheels don't lock. You won't. You don't drive on a racetrack out there where everything is predictable, this is real life.

Above thing happened to me before btw, in the wet. I kept going through the corner, only the decelleration wasn't enough so I had to change lanes to not to crash into the other car (which was apparently driven by an idiot) while braking at the same time, in a corner getting narrower in the extreme wet. I spun. Without ABS I would just have gone into the guard rails and with ESP nothing would have happened at all. Also these systems add maybe 5kg to the whole car. Don't eat so much at McDonalds and you saved that again.

What annoys me is not that the cars get heavier, because it doesn't matter in most cars. It is that the supposed-to-be sporty cars get heavier as well, which just isn't good. Look at the weight of a BMW M6 or sth... theres a lot of room for improvement.

And no, drivers in the past where nowhere near better as they are today, thats why they crashed a lot more despite the fact there's much more traffic today.

I'm completely with you on this one, an unexpected situation, on open roads, will likely make you brake as hard as possible and the ABS is a must, even a bad ABS (and there are some). When you don't have ABS, you need to be trained to play ABS' role AND to have already experienced few times this kind of unexpected situation to manage it.

ESP are good too, however some constructors tend to rely too much on them, thus letting the car's natural handling be a disaster.

Few chips, wires and sensors are few hundred grams so fortunately they have no consequence on cars' weight.