Now this is just crossing the line...

hanasand

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So this is what I'm left with after listening to Justin. (correct me if Im wrong)

- Poor people are too dumb to be rich
- There is no such thing as racial discrimination in the U.S
- Social services and welfare is stupid and only feeds the lazy and dumb
- Everyone have equal chances when born, even if they are the son of Mr.Trump
or of a poor single mom. Paying for school is no problem.


Is there ANY way denying the fact that Republicans base their theology on selfishness?


Wouldn't you pay a small amount of money each year, which would let you finish
college for free. In fact let everyone finish college for free. And you wouldn't have
to relie on expensive health insurances to get the right treatment when sick.
Try not to see the world so black and white. There is more to it than you think.
 

hanasand

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And about those "flip flopping" accusations towards me and Daniel. Get lost.
You are so happy when you can somehow twist and turn the things we say
into something without sense so you can state it over and over again.

I have never said I believe in helping the poor by giving them a handful of dollars.
Which you certainly think is the only way of helping them. If you would, for example
vote for the Democratic party, you would be helping them equally as much.

I don't believe in handing out money to every needy person I see. I never said that,
you said that. I vote for an acceptable living standard for every human being in
my country. And your "American dream" of being patriotic, rich and good looking
can still be achieved in such a society if you long for this superficial status so much.

But the people around you wont have to suffer
 

Ultra_Kool_Dude

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Daniel said:
Ultra_Kool_Dude Oh my fucking God. I dont believe that you mean that. You are very stupid, really young or trying to be funny. Why the fuck do you think that Nike makes their shoes in Asia? Why do you make more a day than an ethiopian does in a month?

If you really stand by your opinion, I suggest you put down the Arnold books, and read some newspapers. Oh my god. :(
Im really sad now...
Hey, I didn't start insulting you. :cry: :D

To be fair, Nike shoes don't really have any affect on the quality of North American life. Besides oil, we can pretty much sustain our current quality of life without outside countries. I'm basically saying that if North America could do it, then so could other countries/continents.

If you look at the problem with a rational (rather than emotional) viewpoint, then you would realize that simple donations aren't the answer. If the entire world equaled out its money today, then in ten years there would be the same disparity.

Everyone sharing money (or communism) makes everybody poor.

There is also a difference between the poor in North America, and the poor in Africa. Some people in North America could win the lottery today, but their children will still be poor.

:idea: 8) :lol: :!:
 

Ultra_Kool_Dude

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hanasand said:
Everyone can be rich, but not by the rich distributing their wealth among the poor.
wtf mate?
Have you heard the saying: "Give a man a fish and you feed him for a day. Teach a man to fish and you feed him for a lifetime" ?

The poor have to be taught to fish. :wink:

And I'm the one to do it :wink:

Just call me UKD - Fish Catching Teacher :wink:
 

sledgehammer

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My first post on this discussion, but where do I start.

I think the problem lies in people thinking that helping the poor is all about giving them a wad of money and telling them to look after themselves. I do not believe it is that simple.

The problem is that when you are born into a poor family you cannot just go to school, come back sit down and study hard to get good grades. I am sure most people here have never had to worry about if they are going to have food on the table for dinner. However, when you are poor you have to worry about this. You have to worry about your alcholic father beating your mother. You have to worry about your drug dealing brother trying to make you hang out with him and get involved. I am not saying everyone who is poor is an alcoholic or a drug dealer or something else, but you have to admit that these problems are disproportionately higher in such people. Yes education is the way out of the hell hole but you have to ingrain that in the child. The only people that can do that are the people around him. Do you think this guys alcoholic father is telling him to study hard? I doubt. In such circumstances it is very very easy to get into the wrong company and not make the right choices. Once you make those few bad choices its all downhill from there. Think about it, the kid gets into the wrong company, does not do well in school so does not get good grades. Ofcourse he is now not going to get into a good college with scholarships and he cannot afford to go otherwise. So what does he do? He gets a job at Burger King or gets some other low paying job which does not require any special skills. Once you are an adult is so much harder to try to get an education when the only job you have can barely provide you with enough to keep yourself alive!

Ofcourse, you will always find the exceptions to the rule. People will come from the worst of neighbourhoods and make it in life. They will have a good job and do well for themselves. But thats all they are - exceptions to the rule.

So what am I getting at? Well I guess the reason we pay taxes for welfare programs is to provide individuals with that little extra income or assistance that can help them in their goals. Or maybe just use those taxes so that everyone has the right to good medical services. I am sure no one here believes that just because a man is poor, he should not deserve to receive the best medical services.

As Ultra_Kool_Dude mentioned you have to teach the poor to fish. I have not looked into this, but I do not think I have heard of vocational schools being set-up by the govt in the US. Maybe that is what we need. Frankly I am no genius and so I do not have the brightest of ideas but I am sure there are better solutions to what is currently in place.

As hanasand mentioned, the world is not a dichotomy with just black and white. There are a hundred shades of grey mixed in as well which does not help! :?

Anyway this all my opinion (rant! :) ) and please feel free to comment on it. I am not trying to offend anyone...just trying to share my point of view.
 

justin syder

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You have to worry about your drug dealing brother trying to make you hang out with him and get involved. I am not saying everyone who is poor is an alcoholic or a drug dealer or something else, but you have to admit that these problems are disproportionately higher in such people.
no facing and treating a substance abuse problem is self-neglect, selling drugs even to put food on the table is a wrong and illegal justification.

those things are also found in rich ppl, they are also alchohoics, wife beaters etc.


sure, some ppl are dealt a shitty hand in the game of life, some have to work twice as hard while others such as rich kids have life handed to them on a silver platter but ultimately YOU decide your own fate. if you choose to use the harsh conditions that you are in as an excuse then you will follow the same path as the idiot mother who had you while not having a stable job or picking somone better as a father than a piece of shit that beats you.

i have a cousin that has been married 3 times. 2 kids by two diff dads. she is making the same mistake her mother maid. im tutoring her son, my second cousin and have seen some promise as i have tried to discipline him and change and break the cycle of bad parenting. but i cant be there all the time and ultimately he has to realize that he can do good and succeed in school to get a good life or he can rebel and continue to use the fact that my cousin is a shitty mom for him.

she also doesnt feed him 3 times a day. she is more concerned with her current fiance.

is this my fault? no. should i pay higher taxes because she herself has said, "made the mistake of having kids early"? no. what i can do is use the little time i have with my second cousin, her son, and instill some good stuff. trying to teach him to be a respectful, honest member of society and not let things like his piece of shit mom and the fact that my aunt, his grandma (a person very dear to him) passed away during the summer, get him down or discourage him.

i really feel that i have helped him and while i wont be there0 most of his life, especially in high school, ill have my own job and life, im sure he'll know the right decisions to make, hopefully.

me and my bro have good parents and out of most of my family members turned out to be good ppl. me and my bro and maybe a few cousins of mine are the very few in my family that dont have kids before 25.

before being born poor your parents would have had to make the mistake of having you before there were emotinally, financially and mentally stable. thats how many poor kids grow up, it reflects in my family.

so dont anyone tell me that im heartless or a "selfish republican" because i dont see anyone else that has a similar first hand experience with ppl and certain reasons for them becoming poor.
 

sledgehammer

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is this my fault? no. should i pay higher taxes because she herself has said, "made the mistake of having kids early"? no. what i can do is use the little time i have with my second cousin, her son, and instill some good stuff. trying to teach him to be a respectful, honest member of society and not let things like his piece of shit mom and the fact that my aunt, his grandma (a person very dear to him) passed away during the summer, get him down or discourage him.
I think you are doing the right thing by helping your second cousin sort his way out in life and encouraging him to succeed in life. I hope it pays off and he finds a way to break the vicious circle.
I see you point about taxes and agree that it is unfair for you to be paying for someone else's "mistakes". However, think about it this way. You are doing your bit for society by helping out when you can, but most people don't care. That is why the government has to charge taxes so they can do that job.
Also lets not forget that the budget for welfare programs is nothing compared to the amount spent on defense which is also funded by those same taxes. Obviously, spending on defense is necessary, but it very easily apparent that there is an enormous amount of money squandered by the DoD. Case in point, the Kellogg Brown and Root affair in Kuwait and Iraq or the National Missile Defense Shield aka Star Wars. Millions of dollars of your tax money is being wasted on programs that serve no real purpose apart from making a few companies very very rich! :?
 

justin syder

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I think you are doing the right thing by helping your second cousin sort his way out in life and encouraging him to succeed in life. I hope it pays off and he finds a way to break the vicious circle.
i care about him and if she didnt have children things would be diff. i wouldnt bother with her, help her yes but not get involved in her messy life. i do it to help the kid out cuz i want to.

You are doing your bit for society by helping out when you can, but most people don't care. That is why the government has to charge taxes so they can do that job.
see ur the first person that is getting somewhere with this argument.

i see ur point but govt isnt suppose to take care of its citizens, it isnt a parent. its more like a bank the govt. they make available a certain amount of help but you have to do most of the work. a bank gives you a loan to start a business, its ur decisions that will make or break the business, YOUR responsibilty not the banks. t the same time you cannot blame the bank for ur failed business (blaming the govt).

and the govt didnt tell me to help out my second cousin, i did because i felt it was the good thing to do, to help him especially since i can. good ppl will help others, yes bad ppl will do nothing or not care but in the end ppl make change not the govt.

regarding spending on defense, Take a look at a book called "The China Threat" by Bill Gertz, writer with the NY Times and you will see that missle defense is very important. It has to be number one in terms of spending so that we have no need to worry about a nation attackin us or going to war. we have the best armed forces and it needs to be the best. take a look at history and you will see that the Roman Empire, British Empire both had superior military might that aided in their success and longevity.

i would rather squander spending on the military which is overall far more successful than on stuff like welfare which created a bunch of dependant poor ppl.
 

hanasand

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i would rather squander spending on the military which is overall far more successful than on stuff like welfare which created a bunch of dependant poor ppl.
I thought America was supposed to be like other nations, a nation that cares about it's people.

It seems, not only you Justin, but very many people against the welfare system seem to
only care about their closest ones. What happened to the feeling of responsibility?
I think black eyes peas had quite a point with their song "where is the love"..
I can't see it anymore. Sure, you love your mom, dad and your brother. But the
responsibility to take care of one another as human beings seems totally lost in
your world.

I am not a Christian person, I'm generally no fan of religion. But I assume you might
be Christian? Nonetheless, you must follow certain ethic points of view.
Have you ever heard the story of the kind samaritan?. I don't necessarily believe
in the story as a fact, but it's function is clear. The story is told to make our society
care about eachother and not turn into what we are going into today.

A selfish world based around our own ego.

I thought we had moved away from this when we morphed into being homo-sapiens
from the neanderthales, but I guess not...
 

justin syder

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i have a cousin that has been married 3 times. 2 kids by two diff dads. she is making the same mistake her mother maid. im tutoring her son, my second cousin and have seen some promise as i have tried to discipline him and change and break the cycle of bad parenting. but i cant be there all the time and ultimately he has to realize that he can do good and succeed in school to get a good life or he can rebel and continue to use the fact that my cousin is a shitty mom for him.
try reading all posts above before making a comment. :roll: :wink:

if welfare was so good then why did Clinton reform it into workfare?? you obviously dont know how bad welfare was. Get ur facts straight.
 

justin syder

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If welfare is done right, and the goddamn egosentric people support the thought,
it will always be sucsessfull...
ok let me educate you a bit because you have no clue. Welfare, the type we are talking about, by definition is, [qoute]-Financial or other aid provided, especially by the government, to people in need. [/qoute].

If you read that carefully and understand it, ppl that appose it dont have any influence on it, taxpayer money supports it.

And so...Bill Clinton reforms welfare into workfare. Well if it is soo good why does it need to be reformed. Let me explain, workfare by definition is
A form of welfare in which capable adults are required to perform work, often in public-service jobs, as a condition of receiving aid.
If Clinton, a democrat, reformed it so that ppl work for the benefit then you yourself can put two and two together and come up with, welfare didnt work and was abused by the ppl that used it. You can also conclude that it wasnt these so-called "egocentric selfish people" or republicans that didnt make welfare work. :roll: They took the aid and in some cases didnt not feel the need to work when the govt was paying them to be lazy. Thus workfare was created so that ppl who really needed it would work for it and eventually get jobs because it, unlike welfare, would be cut off after a few yrs.

Think before you post or research certain things so you know better. :wink:
 

hanasand

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[IRONIC] Well oh THANKS for that piece of great education there Justin, gee I didn't know that. [/IRONIC]

I think you need to find yourelf a school teaching the evolution theories of Darwin before you can
make a statement.

Somehow your people must be different from many other nations, as welfare works
fine in my own country and many many of the surrounding. These lies about a handful
of slackers cannot speak for the people that really need it. Your example is only a
few people which makes out a minority.

I think you need to educate yourself a whole deal before even voting.
But fair enough I've said many many times, this man is yours for 4 more years :mrgreen: :mrgreen:
 

justin syder

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Well oh THANKS for that piece of great education there Justin, gee I didn't know that.
Apparently from the looks of your previous post you didnt. :wink:

I think you need to find yourelf a school teaching the evolution theories of Darwin before you can
make a statement.
Obviously you felt the need to resort to an insult after I showed you off with the truth. How mature of you!

Somehow your people must be different from many other nations, as welfare works
fine in my own country and many many of the surrounding. These lies about a handful
of slackers cannot speak for the people that really need it. Your example is only a
few people which makes out a minority.
You dont know the ppl of my country to make that comment. I also posted that Bill Clinton reformed welfare so there WAS something wrong with it. We DID have many slackers otherwise it wouldnt have been changed into workfare. I'll believe you that Norway has a good welfare system but thinks work differently here. It doesnt mean we are selfish ppl. I like paying less taxes. I guess you dont feel the need to keep most of what you earn so as to help others and that is fine.
 
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