Official: BMW M goes diesel, introduces M550d, X5 M50d, X6 M50d

Pry

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Maybe I'm weird but I don't get the idea of "now I'm driving to work and I must not be enjoying it" :p
 

MacGuffin

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On a 335d you get a sudden burst of torque at 1600 rpm and then it's all gone at 2600 rpm.
Obviously you didn't drive a current 335d yet. Or a 535d. And obviously you didn't even watch the video I posted above.

Because then you'd know that your statement is wrong.

I'm sorry, if this sounds a bit harsh but try again, once you know what you're talking about ;)
 
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Pry

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Obviously you didn't drive a current 335d yet. Or a 535d. And obviously you didn't even watch the video I posted above.

Because then you'd know that your statement is wrong.
My dad has the 40d. I had the 335i.
Here's the torque graph for the 335d:
 

Pry

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I see your point on the peak being fairly short, but it stays above 300 lb-ft until ~4500rpm. That's still a considerable amount of torque. Not as fun as ~420 lb-ft, but 300 is still plenty to move you down the road.
Yup, the point was the engine kinda loses its umph after 2600 rpm and you do feel it and think what was that and where did it go :p
 

MacGuffin

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That's simply not true. Have you actually driven the 335d? And have you seen my video? Can you point out to me, where exactly it loses it's oomph? I admit it gets a bit slowed down above 240 km/h and the limiter kicks in earlier (at 4100 rpm in 6th gear), as in the 335i (hammer falls at 270 km/h, very unpleasant) but the difference in performance between the two cars is marginal.
 
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Pry

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That's simply not true. Have you actually driven the 335d? And have you seen my video? Can you point out to me, where exactly it loses it's oomph? I admit it gets a bit slowed down above 240 km/h and the limiter kicks in earlier (at 4100 rpm in 6th gear), as in the 335i (hammer falls at 270 km/h, very unpleasant) but the difference in performance between the two cars is marginal.
It's not really about the performance. Sure the engine makes its maximum power on higher revs but the bottom line is that on lower revs diesel engines feel like they'd have more power than they actually have. So the power builds up very fast up to the 2600 rpm and then the feeling dies. On 335i the power builds up almost progressively.
Really? Even the German isn't using graphs to support his argument! :p
I just put it there so the German would understand :p
 

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Well that's not necessarily a bad thing.
When doing normal, everyday driving I don't want to rev my car all the way to the redline. For one it uses quite a lot of fuel that way (unfortunately I don't have the cash to drive everywhere balls out even with my tiny 1.4l engine) and it makes you look like an idiot to all other road users. I love going pedal to the metal all the way through the rev band as much as the next guy but in most day to day driving you're always between 1500 en 3000 rpm, and when you got an engine that delivers maximum power there it's just lovely how effortless you can surge forward without having to work the gears. So I'd say that the arguable fact that diesel engines feel like they've got more power than they actually have is even a good thing, because that's the power that is usable 90% of the time.
 

MacGuffin

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Sure the engine makes its maximum power on higher revs but the bottom line is that on lower revs diesel engines feel like they'd have more power than they actually have.
In other words: The diesel offers more power over the whole rpm range, while for the petrol engine you have to rev it like hell, before it performs well.

I rest my case.
 

Pry

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In other words: The diesel offers more power over the whole rpm range, while for the petrol engine you have to rev it like hell, before it performs well.

I rest my case.
A 335i has pretty much linear power output because the torque curve is almost flat for the entire rev range. Some other petrol engines have more torque on higher revs so it feels like the engine turns to life when you rev it more. The diesels are just the opposite for that. For a short period you have a huge amount of torque and then it's pretty much gone. The engine doesn't feel like it wants to be revved. That's not good when your driving is spirited and you want to have fun.
Sure the diesels are good for a sensible old man who doesn't care about excitement and wants to cruise on a straight line on an autobahn as comfortable as possible. If you actually want to drive the car, shift the gears by yourself and stuff like that a petrol engine is much more exciting and fun and that's what M cars have been all about.
 

thevictor390

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Are we arguing about the definition of fun again? :?

Diesels are different, sure, to get the most out of them you have to drive them differently. Whether that process is more fun or not is up to you :dunno:
 

MacGuffin

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A 335i has pretty much linear power output because the torque curve is almost flat for the entire rev range. Some other petrol engines have more torque on higher revs so it feels like the engine turns to life when you rev it more. The diesels are just the opposite for that. For a short period you have a huge amount of torque and then it's pretty much gone. The engine doesn't feel like it wants to be revved. That's not good when your driving is spirited and you want to have fun.
That might be true, if you're out and about in a Porsche Boxster or an Audi TT and go for a fun ride on a Sunday with not particular destination.

But when you just want to go from A to B, which is what most drivers do, you will soon learn to appreciate the cool way a big diesel develops and delivers its power. Maybe I have a different point of view here, because I like to go fast on the Autobahn and learned to appreciate the relaxed way of going fast, which a diesel offers. Maybe that's an experience you haven't made yet...
 

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For me, the power delivery of a diesel is more fun, more of the time. I don't want to be doing 6k+ rpm on a day to day basis, that gets old pretty fast. Ideally I want to go through my drives without ever having to go above 3k rpm, which is excactly where a diesel shines. With a diesel you can get all the power in the world without sacrificing a nice, relaxing driving style.
 

Pry

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But when you just want to go from A to B, which is what most drivers do, you will soon learn to appreciate the cool way a big diesel develops and delivers its power. Maybe I have a different point of view here, because I like to go fast on the Autobahn and learned to appreciate the relaxed way of going fast, which a diesel offers. Maybe that's an experience you haven't made yet...
None of that is really exciting which was the point of my original post. And this being a car enthusiast forum I'd imagine people would appreciate the driving excitement over driving comfort.

The only diesel I've driven on autobahn was a rental Audi A4 2.0 TDI with a manual. Sure it was slow with that engine but I also didn't like how it was very hard trying to keep on the very narrow torque band. On the lower revs you didn't have any power/torque at all and I had to shift it to a lower gear. This happened all the time because when on torque band the engine gives you an impression there's a lot of power on the lower revs when there really isn't. Then on a bit higher revs there was some amount of that "diesel magic" but it honestly didn't last very long. The twin turbo BMW's are probably a bit better on lower revs but I really don't know because they pretty much all have automatic gearboxes and I never use the manual option with an auto.

When driving a petrol engined car with a manual on daily commuting I love to change gears by myself. Rev matching and heel & toe gear changes give just so much pleasure when done right. Couldn't imagine doing that with a diesel though as they aren't rev happy at all and a manual would be shit anyway because the power band is so narrow that it's annoying.

The fastest I've done on an autobahn was 296 kph on a GPS (320 on a speedo). Can't say it was very relaxing though not because my car has a petrol engine but speeds like that are just crazy when there's other traffic.
 
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Buktu

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And why excactly is it that we can't appreciate all of it?

It's a very narrowminded approach, to believe that petrol heads is all about heel and toe, high revs and lot of gear changes. I can appreciate a Ferrari, but I can also appreciate a Rolls-Royce.

Some of us just believe that a diesel can be more suited to a specific type of car, and a specific type of driving style. If you try and drive a diesel like a petrol engine, then yes, it will suck.
 

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On a road with longish straights and sweeping corners with occasional tight corners: high revving engine FTMFW. This is the territory of the Honda S2000. Doesn't want to play until around 6,000rpm, but my lord it's fantastic after that.

On a road made up of entirely very low speed corners or a road littered with stop signs, traffic signals, other motorists, zebra crossings, potholes, etc: low revving, torquey down low, squirt-and-shoot engine ftw. I characterize this with the Mini Cooper S (old supercharged one, never driven the TC version). But it has fantastic low end grunt, and a chassis that makes use of it perfectly.

You put either one of these cars out of their element and it's kind of a waste. I drive a car that doesn't begin to feel exciting until around 4,000rpm in situation B all the time. It is terribly suited for that job, but worth it for the few amount of times I can get it in situation A. Also, this is the reason I'm trying to find a daily driver with a grunty-low end engine for stop light to stop light duty.

Hopefully this will find agreement with some people...
 
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