Okay fine, what's a good cheap RWD car then?

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Fail bodies are hideously expensive to maintain due to the idiot engineering. See "two hour spark plug replacement".

:lol: You obviously have not owned an f-body, or maybe you did and it was a lemon. You can change the first 7 plugs in 30 minutes, and if you have half a brain you can figure out how to get #8 in 30 minutes or less. My change took me 30-45 minutes, not hard.

Monaro = GTO in this context, already discussed.

Old Porsches have the same extortionate hourly labor charges as a 6 year old one. That makes them not cheap.

F-body fans, do tell us about what's involved in a spark plug change and how long it takes again?

I had one, and 7 of my friends do....it's not hard. #8 is a bit of a bitch but if it takes you more than an hour, you are obviously not doing it right.

I second the f-body idea. LS1 is just a much better motor than the 4.6 Ford.

Amen.
 
Now onto to correcting Spectre's terribly misguided views...

It's just a shame that the car it's installed in is such a pile. Again, why don't you tell the class about how much fun it is to replace spark plugs on an F-Body? Or where they located the ignition controller? Or how the visibility is out of the car?

The ignition controller? You must be speaking of LT1s...I have 3 friends with LT1s...only 1 of them has had an opti issue and his is 200k+ miles. Opti change wasn't hard.

Speak plug changes are easy if you stop and take the time to use your head for 5 seconds.

There's reasons the SN95/New Edge Mustangs outsold the F-bodies by almost two to one. The F-body's serviceability is much worse and therefore servicing costs will be higher.

:lol: Wrong. V6s are volume sellers, and people loved the looks of the Mustang more. Do you realize just how easy it is to do most anything on an F-body? No, you probably don't. Shit, if you blow the engine/trans/rearend, you can swap in any engine from a truck, corvette, camaro/transam, SUV, GTO, etc. for $1,000 or less. If you have a manual, T56s can be had for $1,500 or less, 4L60s (the autos) can be had for 500 or less, 10 bolt rear ends can be had for $200 or less! All of that stuff is CHEAPPPPPP. Everything is very easy to do. Only 1 of my friends had a bit of a bad car, but that was because the previous owner was 16 and he beat the shit out of it without replacing anything. But doing mods, we've found everything to be very easy.


You think that, maybe, just possibly, somehow a car that is more difficult for the owner to service might, I don't know, be more difficult for the guy he pays to do it instead?

Cars that are harder to work on take more time for a professional to repair or service. This translates into a larger bill and an emptier wallet. Sadly, with the F Body, GM appears to have designed the body first, then tried to shoehorn the driveline and everything else into it with the usual bad results that are to be expected from such a plan. The car is much more difficult to service as a result. 2 plus hours to change the spark plugs.

Why would you pay someone to do easy things? Most things on an f-body are very easy to get to, alternator, starter, water pump etc. Even taking the trans out isn't hard at all.

Also, while the Mustang starts out slower, it is very easy to make it faster. They made and sold a lot more Mustangs than F-Bodies, so bolt-on upgrade parts for the Mustangs are cheaper, sometimes laughably so.

LOLOLOLOLOLOOLOLOLOL. You really don't know anything, do you???

intake lid- $100
ls6 intake- $300 (used)
headers- ~$300 (got mine for 270 on sale)
Y-pipe- $100
Catback- $400 (or you can go true duals like I did and get parts + the exhaust put on for $400 total, no y pipe needed)
cam kit- $700
clutch kit-$500
tune-$400
=$2,800 installed yourself and an easy 400rwhp. (~460 crank hp)
[What you don't see here is that you will get MUCH more torque with the bigger cubes than any Mustang.]

Throw on some $1,500 heads, with injectors and a fuel pump and you'll be running next to/away from stock vipers.

To get a Mustang to 400rwhp, you MUST use forced induction to keep the cost down. Friend of mine had a cammed/full bolt-on/geared Mach1 (4 valve) and we were door to door and I didn't even have a cam. Even with boost, getting an old 5.0 to 400rwhp was tough, and shortly thereafter the block would crack. Modular motors like the 2v need a good amount of boost to see 400rwhp, and then the price gets up there and you still won't have the torque that the bigger cubes of an LS1 bring.


The Mustang being a bit slower to start off is not a bad thing. He can ease into the RWD world and then upgrade the car to keep pace with him for peanuts.

Fair enough, but I'm betting he would want something that is a bit more on the edge to teach him since the Viper will be wayyyy more car than the Mustang. An LS1 can get very sideways, very easy. Torque is something you need to lean how to manage, and a Mustang cannot give you that. You can make an LS1 seriously fast, for not a lot of money, plus even if you don't it is fast out of the box.

Everything is right about the same price if not lower FOR F-BODIES! The LS1/LSX family has seen an explosion in recent years because everyone is swapping them into everything, thus dropping and keeping prices into everything. Try putting cams in a Mustang...it'll run you over a grand just for the cams alone. Even then, you'll make less power than a full bolt-on LS1 would.

I guess I am left to conclude that you are a Mustang nut-hugger or are friends with one and have only heard his yapping about what is easy and what is hard on f-bodies. I have had plenty of experience with LS1/LT1 f-bombs, as well as some friends with SN95/New Edge Mustangs. How in the hell is a car with a tiny pushrod motor that leaves lots of space in the engine bay harder to work on than a huuuge DOHC motor that you have to drop the motor out of the car to do headers?
 
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Well my dad does keep saying he wants the body taken off his TR250 and stuck onto a modern chassis... :lol:

So, how feasible would it be to put it on a Mustang chassis? It wouldn't be the most modern choice I guess, but if you get a Mustang, you'd have a donor frame when the switch to the Viper happens.
 
A reminder to please treat your fellow forum members with respect. I thank you all for your opinions, but please lay off each other.
 
BMWs are not cheap to maintain, but if you do it right, you can save a bunch of money.

This example is not ideal, but here's an E36 M3 in your area. If you search a BMW forum like bimmerforums or whatever, they have tons of FAQs and DIY guides as well as classifieds with cars that were well maintained. E36 M3s are a fantastic performance bargain. I see them popping up all the time with any where from 120-210k miles. That's galactic mileage for a performance car and a testament to how long they'll last if properly maintained.

Here's a buyer's guide for reference.
 
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How often are the spark plugs really going to need to be replaced?

If memory serves, about every 30K and most people neglect them so chances are good that whatever car he gets will need the plugs replaced.

And I have changed them in far less than 2 hours.

:lol: You obviously have not owned an f-body, or maybe you did and it was a lemon. You can change the first 7 plugs in 30 minutes, and if you have half a brain you can figure out how to get #8 in 30 minutes or less. My change took me 30-45 minutes, not hard.

Nope, I've not owned a 4th gen. Do have friends with them or who have had them in the past; pretty much all of them, even those that bought new, have had major problems with their F-bodies. I have unfortunately had more experience than I'd like in and around the damn things from helping the owners out.

I had one, and 7 of my friends do....it's not hard. #8 is a bit of a bitch but if it takes you more than an hour, you are obviously not doing it right.

Or, more typically, one or more of the spark plugs has frozen up in the holes due to bimetallic corrosion and doesn't want to come out. #8 is usually especially bad because since it's such a bitch to change it often gets skipped (assuming the owner changes the plugs at all.) That's where the two hours comes in.

I've done several LS1 F-body plug changes and none of them have gone off in less than two hours because of this problem. Most of the dealer and indy techs I have talked to have similar experiences.

Don't forget the stock plugs have those platinum discs that like to fall or burn off. Often inside your engine. Brilliant design there.

The ignition controller? You must be speaking of LT1s...I have 3 friends with LT1s...only 1 of them has had an opti issue and his is 200k+ miles. Opti change wasn't hard.

You are correct on this one, I briefly had the two awful versions of the car confused. Still shows the boneheadedness of GM design - what IDIOT puts the ignition controller at the bottom of the engine right below the water pump... where road debris can get to it and it gets ruined if your water pump springs a leak?

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Speak plug changes are easy if you stop and take the time to use your head for 5 seconds.

And buy something else that wasn't designed by morons.

:lol: Wrong. V6s are volume sellers, and people loved the looks of the Mustang more. Do you realize just how easy it is to do most anything on an F-body? No, you probably don't. Shit, if you blow the engine/trans/rearend, you can swap in any engine from a truck, corvette, camaro/transam, SUV, GTO, etc. for $1,000 or less.

V6s were the volume seller for all the pony cars. It also wasn't just the looks, it was the crap visibility from within the cabin and the fact that the majority of people couldn't figure out where the corners of the car were on the 4th gen and therefore were very uneasy with parking it (especially women). The visibly inferior interior quality (the infamous GM gray plastic #3) and the more difficult ingress/egress didn't help F-body sales much either. The high insurance costs at the end (more Camaro V8s got wrecked than even Mustang GTs) also discouraged buyers. Even the '98 redesign didn't help any of the matters that were important and sales plummeted.

Trucks don't have an LS1, though their heavier engines are of course bolt-up compatible.

However, you forget that the Mustang has comparable access to engines, trans, rear differential, etc. Mustangs can pull parts from the best selling vehicle in the US for, oh, 20+ years running, the F150. They can pull from the Crown Victoria/Grand Marquis/Town Car, the Explorer, the Expedition, the F250, the Lincoln Continental (engine only), and many, many more. The Ford 4.6 engines are really cheap and so are the Ford corporate 8.8 rear ends.

If you have a manual, T56s can be had for $1,500 or less, 4L60s (the autos) can be had for 500 or less, 10 bolt rear ends can be had for $200 or less! All of that stuff is CHEAPPPPPP.

And due to volume, all the same can be said for the Mustang (save for the T-56 and except for that it would be a 4R70 and the 8.8), only it's even cheaper. Likewise, the T-45 that Ford used in the GTs is a lot cheaper than the T56 used in the Cobras or the F-bodies. I would have put the Ford T45 or 3650 in my last Jaguar build but it wouldn't fit and I would have needed to change my block adapter plate quite radically. Ended up having to use a late F-body T-5WC instead, and even that barely fit with 'sledgehammer clearancing' of the body. The accessories and enhancement kits are cheaper for the Ford stuff because it sold in greater volume.

Why would you pay someone to do easy things? Most things on an f-body are very easy to get to, alternator, starter, water pump etc. Even taking the trans out isn't hard at all.

It's not hard... if you have a lift. Or you like messing around with almost two feet of extensions and swivels/wobblies with the entire drivetrain tilted down to get to the top bellhousing bolts that GM so thoughtfully made inaccessible. As for the rest... you must have a different definition of easy than I do, see below.

As for not doing it yourself - that's per Viper, the original poster. He says he would have someone else working on it. I prefer doing it myself, less chances of having the job done wrong.

{juvenile crap deleted}

intake lid- $100
ls6 intake- $300 (used)
headers- ~$300 (got mine for 270 on sale)
Y-pipe- $100
Catback- $400 (or you can go true duals like I did and get parts + the exhaust put on for $400 total, no y pipe needed)
cam kit- $700
clutch kit-$500
tune-$400
=$2,800 installed yourself and an easy 400rwhp. (~460 crank hp)
[What you don't see here is that you will get MUCH more torque with the bigger cubes than any Mustang.]

You keep forgetting that Viper says he WON'T be DIYing it. Shop time on an F-body kills the deal - even when the part is occasionally cheaper, the additional labor required and resulting shop charges more than offset the deal. Most of those items on the list the Mustang can meet or beat on price, too - where they apply, of course.

Throw on some $1,500 heads, with injectors and a fuel pump and you'll be running next to/away from stock vipers.

Once again, see labor charges. Also, he wants to buy a Viper, not something else so 'being faster than a Viper' is kind of a moot point. If you want to be faster than a Viper, buy a motorcycle. It's cheaper still.

To get a Mustang to 400rwhp, you MUST use forced induction to keep the cost down. Friend of mine had a cammed/full bolt-on/geared Mach1 (4 valve) and we were door to door and I didn't even have a cam. Even with boost, getting an old 5.0 to 400rwhp was tough, and shortly thereafter the block would crack. Modular motors like the 2v need a good amount of boost to see 400rwhp, and then the price gets up there and you still won't have the torque that the bigger cubes of an LS1 bring.

More or less this is true, but I don't think the 5.0 Windsor figures into this discussion as it's rather old and it wasn't very good. Getting a mod motor to 400 takes less boost than you seem to be thinking of, it's cheaper than you'd think and I'll grant that the LS1 makes more torque to begin with. But that's not necessarily a good thing either.

Fair enough, but I'm betting he would want something that is a bit more on the edge to teach him since the Viper will be wayyyy more car than the Mustang. An LS1 can get very sideways, very easy. Torque is something you need to lean how to manage, and a Mustang cannot give you that. You can make an LS1 seriously fast, for not a lot of money, plus even if you don't it is fast out of the box.

A bit more on the edge to start is NOT good. The F-body is there, but it had the same problem as the Viper just on a smaller scale. Just ask the insurance companies - F-bodies got crashed and totalled out at a much higher rate than the Mustangs ever did.

Again, the advantage of the Mustang is that it's friendlier to start (as the insurance stats bear out) and can be built up as his skills improve. And it isn't designed by morons.

Everything is right about the same price if not lower FOR F-BODIES! The LS1/LSX family has seen an explosion in recent years because everyone is swapping them into everything, thus dropping and keeping prices into everything. Try putting cams in a Mustang...it'll run you over a grand just for the cams alone. Even then, you'll make less power than a full bolt-on LS1 would.

What you forgot to mention is that if you have someone replace the LS1's cam, it will end up costing more in the long run... because you basically have to disassemble most of the engine to replace it, thus taking all day. Not cheap at shop rates. Not a lot of fun if you do it yourself. Been there, done that, got the scratches on my arm from trying to snake the #$_&#@&$)#$& cam out past the condenser.

You can swap cams in the Mustang in just an hour or so. Been there, done that, behold the advantage of overhead cams. Also, there are two or four cams in the mod motor, so of course it's going to cost more for the cams themselves - there's more of them! Duh! The overall cost, including time? Sorry, advantage Mustang.

I guess I am left to conclude that you are a Mustang nut-hugger or are friends with one and have only heard his yapping about what is easy and what is hard on f-bodies.

And you would be wrong. Until recently, I've been more or less platform agnostic; and if you check my history, I was even interested in a GTO until I discovered GM's wretched dealer experience and customer service. I don't own a Mustang, either.

I have had plenty of experience with LS1/LT1 f-bombs, as well as some friends with SN95/New Edge Mustangs. How in the hell is a car with a tiny pushrod motor that leaves lots of space in the engine bay harder to work on than a huuuge DOHC motor that you have to drop the motor out of the car to do headers?

It's harder because GM decided to make boneheaded design decisions, didn't take serviceability into account when designing the car and then stuck the owners with the resulting shop bills.

Let's look at a common problem for both (indeed, all cars) - alternator replacement.

On a Mustang (in fact, all the mod-motor cars until this year), the alternator is right on top in plain view and attached with a simple bracket. Disconnect the battery cable, remove the belt, unplug and unbolt the alternator, lift out alternator. Takes less than 15 minutes with a standard socket set.

LS1? Not so fast. I'll let the GM fanatics explain that one.

the main bracket uses 2 floating "crush sleeve" bushings that will align and self-center the alternator once the new one is installed

you may have to pry the old alternator out, but once it is has been removed, you can simply take a pair of pliers or channel-locks and "press" the bushing back into an "open" position by putting 1 jaw on the back side of the bushing ( inside of bracket ) and the other jaw on the outside of the BRACKET ONLY, this will return the bushing to an "open position" allowing the new alternator to slide into place with NO EFFORT AT ALL.

once the bolts and re-installed and tightened, it will align itself and tighten down as-designed

As I said, these are the things that helped me. It took me 3.5 hours to do this change, but if I had read this document first, it would have taken me 2.5 to 3 hours. I would also suggest using a ratchet wrench for the bolt on the back side. I didn't have one, and I will be making the investment for future repairs/installs.

What idiot designed this????

Yes, headers are harder on a Mustang. But you're more likely to need to replace an alternator than headers, now, aren't you? (And I say that as someone with a built GM alternator on his project Jag.)

So, how feasible would it be to put it on a Mustang chassis? It wouldn't be the most modern choice I guess, but if you get a Mustang, you'd have a donor frame when the switch to the Viper happens.

Mustangs have been unibody since at least 1979. No frame.
 
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4 years of ownership and 8 cars between my friends, we've never had a single optispark problem. They are overreported. If you're not manly enough for the miata, F body is always the answer.


And spectre, you dont accomplish difficult jobs by whining. Work, bleed, sweat, drink. Difficulty is all part of the fun. Because i've done it so much,I can have the subframe out of my car and the body lifted off in under an hour.
 
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And spectre, you dont accomplish difficult jobs by whining. Work, bleed, sweat, drink. Difficulty is all part of the fun. Because i've done it so much,I can have the subframe out of my car and the body lifted off in under an hour.

I would just like to point out that Viper will not be doing any of the work himself- thus, if it takes a mechanic just an hour to remove an F-body subframe, he's still going to charge him full book time.

Why not post some quality buyer's guides/FAQs instead as Viper does not give a rat's ass about maintaining or modifying the prospective vehicle himself.
 
And spectre, you dont accomplish difficult jobs by whining. Work, bleed, sweat, drink. Difficulty is all part of the fun. Because i've done it so much,I can have the subframe out of my car and the body lifted off in under an hour.

I would just like to point out that Viper will not be doing any of the work himself- thus, if it takes a mechanic just an hour to remove an F-body subframe, he's still going to charge him full book time.

Why not post some quality buyer's guides/FAQs instead as Viper does not give a rat's ass about maintaining or modifying the prospective vehicle himself.

This.

I can pull the engine and trans out of a Series III in a little more than an hour and drop the massive rear IRS/subframe out of the same car in about 45 minutes. But just because I can do that does not mean that a shop will only charge actual time. They charge book time, and book time for that rear subframe is (IIRC) three hours. What you or I can accomplish 'easily' through experience doesn't matter when you're taking the car to someone else to have the work done. All that matters is the labor rate listed in the book, and the F-body continues to have higher times than the Mustang at most repair or upgrade tasks.

A car that's an 'enthusiast's special' can be a financial nightmare if budget is a concern and you have to or want to take it to a shop instead of working on it yourself. Jags are pretty good that way - not too many boneheaded design mistakes - and can be economical to work on yourself, but if you have an older model like my Series III and have to take it to a shop for everything, it will quickly bankrupt you.
 
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For the sake of keeping this short, I'll just touch on a few key points.

1.) No, trucks do not have LS1s. A 5.3 or 6.0 still has more than enough grunt to lay a hurting on a GT of the same year. Heavy? Not all of them got iron blocks.
2.) Alternator link was from LS1.com =:lol::lol::lol: No wonder it took him so long. Including the time it took me to jack the car up, unhook the battery, etc. until the alternator came out was about 30 minutes. Goes in even easier.
3.) Obviously putting a cam into an OHV car will take a while, however, you are NOT disassembling most of the engine. Start with intake, water pump, and work your way on down. Now, putting heads on the car does involve a little more, but my main focus was just doing a cam swap. While the Mustang may be easier than that, the gains are far from worth it. 15-30hp (tops) from that kind of money spent is ridiculous. A VERY mild 224 cam in an LS1 will put down a nice 30-50hp gain, with the stock heads and depeding on transmissions. Remember that cammed Mach 1 I spoke of? He only gained 20hp. You'd have to use a baby cam like a stock LS6 cam to get that little from a properly done LS1 cam swap. Ease of install-advantage Mustang. Making the time worth it for good gains-LSX every single time.

At the end of the day, both are very far from a Viper but the F-body is definitely the closer of the two. I've never heard someone say that an F-body is as hard to work on as you make it out to be. Certain things may not be the easiest, but it is definitely not hard by any means. Anyone with any mechanical inclination can work on the simpler F-body and get just about everything accomplished.

Also, t-tops = win.
 
What were those GM products? I think that they were re-skinned Astras so front wheel drive - shame.

I don't know if the Opel GT/Saturn Sky is what you are talking of, but it might be a good car to put on the list.
 
I don't know if the Opel GT/Saturn Sky is what you are talking of, but it might be a good car to put on the list.

Too expensive, not that good and parts availability will be questionable as Saturn and Pontiac are toast.

This is also the only acceptable version, the Mallet, with an LS2:
20110517_130129_1.jpg
 
For the sake of keeping this short, I'll just touch on a few key points.

1.) No, trucks do not have LS1s. A 5.3 or 6.0 still has more than enough grunt to lay a hurting on a GT of the same year. Heavy? Not all of them got iron blocks.

Most of them did, and there are other differences as well. Also, three words: "Cold Spark Knock."

2.) Alternator link was from LS1.com =:lol::lol::lol: No wonder it took him so long. Including the time it took me to jack the car up, unhook the battery, etc. until the alternator came out was about 30 minutes. Goes in even easier.

Don't have to jack up the Mustang to change the alternator. It takes 15 minutes to do the entire swap on a mod motor. Thank you for proving and agreeing that the F-body is more difficult to work on.

3.) Obviously putting a cam into an OHV car will take a while, however, you are NOT disassembling most of the engine. Start with intake, water pump, and work your way on down. Now, putting heads on the car does involve a little more, but my main focus was just doing a cam swap. While the Mustang may be easier than that, the gains are far from worth it. 15-30hp (tops) from that kind of money spent is ridiculous. A VERY mild 224 cam in an LS1 will put down a nice 30-50hp gain, with the stock heads and depeding on transmissions. Remember that cammed Mach 1 I spoke of? He only gained 20hp. You'd have to use a baby cam like a stock LS6 cam to get that little from a properly done LS1 cam swap. Ease of install-advantage Mustang. Making the time worth it for good gains-LSX every single time.

Only if you're doing it yourself. Remember, this car is a temporary, he's not keeping it, and he wants it to be as cheap as possible. It might be worth it if he was going to keep the car - but he's not.

At the end of the day, both are very far from a Viper but the F-body is definitely the closer of the two. I've never heard someone say that an F-body is as hard to work on as you make it out to be. Certain things may not be the easiest, but it is definitely not hard by any means. Anyone with any mechanical inclination can work on the simpler F-body and get just about everything accomplished.

Difficult in absolute terms, no. More difficult and therefore more expensive than the Mustang? Yes. Go look at the professional labor time guides at any shop and you'll see the proof there.

Also, t-tops = win.

T-tops on GM cars = leaky POS. In fact, the only T-top car of any make I've ever seen that didn't leak like a sieve after a few years was my ex-Z31 (much to my delighted surprise.)

I don't know if the Opel GT/Saturn Sky is what you are talking of, but it might be a good car to put on the list.

Also the Pontiac Solstice. However neither the Sky nor the Solstice sold well (for many good reasons that have been covered on the boards here repeatedly) and both brands that sold them have closed. Also, they're still not cheap.
 
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So it's basically a three-way race by popular opinion: Mustang vs. Camaro vs. Miata?
 
I would also think finding a good used F-Body that you would want to be seen in would be hard. I hardly see them on the roads anymore, which isnt surprising considering how few were sold compared to Mustangs.
 
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