Our "own" car reviews

[AiR]

It's interesting to see a "poverty" spec as well as all the small alterations they make on the same basic design elements to fit in on the market. Unfortunate that it has torsion beam suspension, IIRC most of its rivals over there has IRS.

 

[rickhamilton620]

It's interesting to see a "poverty" spec as well as all the small alterations they make on the same basic design elements to fit in on the market. Unfortunate that it has torsion beam suspension, IIRC most of its rivals over there has IRS.

:nods: yep, on all counts. IIRC there's a China market model with even more differentiated styling. The wiggle/hop i noticed was subtle so it's not surprising if others haven't noticed it. I began thinking it was chalked up to it being a rental car but Edmunds and C&D did notice a stiff ride in their tests...I thought I was going crazy for a while there.

New, the Corolla has a twist beam. So does the Cruze (because, Astra by way of Korea - you can get an optional sport suspension with a Z-Link) and Kia Forte.

The Jetta used to have one on Base through SEL trims - but all gained IRS in the 2014 refresh.

 

[93Flareside]

My boss would buy us jetta wagons if they had poverty spec but, in his mind they currently cost too much.

 

[Spectre]

My boss would buy us jetta wagons if they had poverty spec but, in his mind they currently cost too much.

So, your boss hates his employees?

 

[93Flareside]

So, your boss hates his employees?

There's no radio, that would make long car rides suck donkey balls...

I'd like to stop in at the local VW dealer and see if that offer is still available...

 

[Spectre]

There's no radio, that would make long car rides suck donkey balls...

I'd like to stop in at the local VW dealer and see if that offer is still available...

Yup. Except it costs $17,035 now.

Volkswagen's refreshed 2015 Jetta -- due at dealers by the end of September -- will start at $17,035 with shipping.

That's up $520 over the 2014 model and gets you a 2.0-liter four-cylinder base model with a five-speed manual transmission and power windows and locks -- but no air conditioning or radio.

2.oh no! it broke again motor is another slap in the face. For that money plus $215, you can get a Hyundai Elantra with a nicer interior, air conditioning, a decent stereo and everything else - Rick just reviewed his rental one upthread. Not looking like a retard for buying a stripper Jetta: Priceless.

Edit: Correction, with current incentives, the Elantra comes with $2000 cash back. Net price for the Elantra is then $1795 cheaper than the Jetta. Why would anyone in their right mind buy a stripper Jetta?

 

[Brother Michael]

Alrighty then...after a very long hiatus I'm going to try and get back to writing again. Now This is my first longer text in a long time, I haven't put all that much thought into it, I've only sort of proof read it so with that in mind, please be brutally honest, any and all feedback is much appreciated so that I can start honing my writing skills again. Here goes...


Battle of the non-quattros: 2013 Mercedes Benz E250CDI Blue efficiency 4Matic vs. 2013 BMW 525d xDrive.

Ever since the sport Quattro emerged on rally stages in the early 1980?s Audi has had the AWD market very well for itself in the premium car segment. In recent years though the trend has changed and Audi is facing more and tougher competition than ever as more and more manufacturers have started to incorporate AWD systems in their passenger cars. Let?s have a look at the two main rivals for the Lord of the (four) rings.
On the face of it these are very similar cars, offering a lot of the same things in a same sort of package. However having spent considerable time over the past two years driving each one, I can tell you they couldn?t be more different executions of the same formula.

First impressions

First time behind the wheel of the Mercedes is a very familiar experience to anyone who has driven any Benz made after the 1980?s ? the steering is still very easy, light and will not center without help, there are still no stalks on the right side of the steering column and the ride is very Mercedes like ? soft, comfortable and effortless. The BMW on the other hand is a very different experience altogether. Sitting inside the Bavarian you feel much more cocooned with the tall and wide center console, separating you from the passenger. The HVAC controls are almost in front of you compared to the Mercedes and overall the whole interior is much more driver centric in the F10 5-series. Which one is better, though, is a matter of opinion. I much prefer the cabin of the BMW whereas a lot of people I have talked to comment on it feeling cramped and claustrophobic thus preferring the much more open feel of the Mercedes.
Looks are always a subjective matter but in the case of these two there seems to be very little contest with the BMW deemed to be the much more handsome car overall. Not that the W212 E-class is a particularly ugly car, but side by side it really does look a bit boring and fat next to the sleek and muscular 5er.

Inside

After initial impressions and having settled in the Mercedes is not a bad place to sit in. As one would expect with a car of this size and price range, space is plentiful and even longer journeys are a breeze. One major complaint I do have about the E-class interior is the (to me) inexplicable desire to have an old fashioned keypad on the center console and then place it as far away from the driver as possible. It makes the whole setup look busy and cramped and quite frankly, a bit cheap. As far as quality goes, the Mercedes has the BMW beat by quite a ways ? on initial impressions the BMW looks a lot nicer inside with its red backlighting and the combination of black wood and brown leather in my car. However after a while it does come painfully obvious that the E-class holds up to miles and abuse a lot better than the 5-series. The 5er is by no means badly put together but after 100.000 miles the difference is very clear. The MB still feels like new whereas the BMW is starting to show scratches, creaks and rattles.

On the backseat the tables are turned as the BMW offers superior levels of comfort and silence compared to the Mercedes. The backseat in the E-class is quite short, offering little leg support and you sit rather upright, which can become strenuous for passengers over a long journey. But the biggest complaint about the E-class ? comfort wise ? is the noise: it is a very loud car to be in. Not only is the wind noise very noticeable above 50mph, but the tire noise is what one passenger described as ?unacceptable?.
This, then is where the beemer shines: the backseat is fantastically comfortable offering better leg support and also having a more reclined backrest. It is also the much quieter car for front and back passengers alike.
Space wise they are pretty even, though the BMW?s backseat does have a wider feel than that of the Mercedes but neither one is really built for three grown men to sit in the back for long periods of time. Cargo space wise the E-class has the larger boot but the BMW?s is more useable due to its shape: it is rather rectangular and easy to utilize where as the MB?s boot floor is not level, rising and narrowing towards the seatbacks.

On the road

On paper both of these cars sport very similar specs: around 200hp from 2000cc turbodiesel engines mated to 7- and 8-speed gearboxes powering all four wheels. However the power delivery and overall performance characteristics are like night and day.
This is the where the Mercedes falls short: the 250CDI while providing plenty of get up and go to move a car this large, the power delivery is not as smooth as I would expect and it is a *very* noisy engine with a soundtrack resembling earth moving equipment, which is a huge disappointment in a car that otherwise is rather refined and comfortable.

The other issue which I already mentioned, is the smoothness ?or lack there of. The initial press of the pedal needed to get the car moving is a much heavier one than I find comfortable and once on the move, the constant guessing game from the 7GTronic gearbox makes for -if not unsteady- a bothersome drive. The problems continue in daily driving both in town and on highways: the automatic in the Mercedes never really seems to be sure what it should be doing and when. It gets especially confused in slow stop-start traffic where you are constantly on and off the gas pedal. The issue is that there is no ?on demand? power and you always have to know 3 seconds in advance when you need to go, you have to anticipate the lag of the power train which is especially annoying on highway on-ramps and overtaking trucks. It feels like proper, old fashioned turbo lag but it is merely a matter of calibration due to the eco-friendly set up of the engine-gearbox combo The sport setting for the gearbox remedies the problems though and you do get used to the car and learn to drive on its terms once you get over the engine?s unwillingness to rev.

Once you get past the letdown of the engine, the Mercedes is a very nice and easy car to drive. A little too easy in fact ? the steering is so light one merely needs to look at the wheel to steer the car. The steering is of the ?active? sort as in it does firm up the faster you go, but at low speeds the lack of effort needed is shocking. Another complaint of mine (and others) is that the adjustments for driving position are lacking. The seat doesn?t go down enough and the steering wheel does not have enough reach. This combined to a cumbersome pedal offset, means that this car is not meant for dynamic driving.
The suspension isn?t what one would call sporting either, though this was to be expected. The upside is that under normal driving conditions it is fantastically comfortable and compliant. There is a drawback though which comes very apparent on speedbumps, potholes and other surface imperfections that will upset the car: the suspension on the E-class has no progression what so ever meaning while there is enough suspension travel, it bottoms out very easily. On the upside the car is built rather tough and this doesn?t seem to affect the durability of the suspension components in long term.

The F10 5-series then is a very different animal. The first thing you notice is that the engine note is very muted, almost pleasing for a 4-cylinder diesel engine. The second thing is that the power delivery is smooth, linear and easily accessible. Some of this is down to the engineers at BMW who have done wonders with this motor and some is down to the amazing ZF 8-speed gearbox. Many others have raved on about the merits of this automatic and there is very little I can add to what has been said before. Simply put, it is a phenomenon. Smooth, quick changes, instant delivery?it is fab. There is a lot more adjustability in the seat and steering column as well, making the driving position optimal for people of all sizes. Along with the cocoon-effect of the cabin, the F10 is clearly the ?driver?s choice? of the duo.

Then there is the way the car drives as a whole. I say whole because I will address the elephant in the room, or so I have been lead to believe. The F10 5-series comes with electronic steering, much like the 991 generation of Porsche 911 for instance and the newer variants of Jaguar F-Type. Naturally the unit in the 5er is older and not necessarily as refined and well developed as some newer, bespoke sports cars but I say it is good enough and I mean it in every sense of the word ? I do not feel it takes anything away from the driving experience and while I admit it?s not exactly the most sensitive or rich-in-feel steering unit ever, it is fantastically precise and the car is easy to place on the road. The steering is also nicely weighted, unlike the one in the Mercedes making it pleasant to use. Granted I have not driven the F10 generation M5 and in that car the electronic steering might well take something away from the experience but in an everyday 525d ? Not at all.

Coupled to a chassis & suspension setup that can only be described as ?benchmark?, the F10 well and truly deserves to carry the ultimate driving machine ?moniker. Driving the E-class and the 5-series back to back only highlights the shortcomings of the Mercedes: the F10?s suspension is stiffer yet not any less comfortable, the progression is fantastic and rough, uneven surfaces don?t unsettle the car as easily as with the E-class. As a package then, the F10 completely trumps the E-class when it comes to driving dynamics even if the steering lacks in feel ? the car is otherwise sorted so thoroughly well, that you will not even notice it.

xDrive vs. 4Matic

These cars go about their AWD ways in two different applications. Without going into too much detail, the 4Matic is the more intelligent system of the two, using a system Mercedes calls 4-ETS to brake and/or divert power to, from and between individual wheels using an array of sensors within the ABS and ESP systems among others. The xDrive is, on paper at least, a cruder system that transfers power limitlessly between the axles via a wet clutch system, also using DSC when needed.

In practice however the Mercedes 4Matic is hopelessly bogged down once the going gets rough. Yes, the Mercedes does a fine job keeping the car straight and true even at high speeds as long as the road surface is smooth and even but the moment you get slush, piled up snow, black ice and any combination of these, the 4Matic system cannot cope and simply retorts to cutting off power, leaving you effectively stranded or sliding with no traction since you can?t ?power out? of a slippery situation, because the over aggressive ESP on the Mercedes will cut the power. The 4Matic also won?t allow a skilled driver to throw the car into a bend because the moment it detects even a hint of a slide, the ESP will kick in with such aggression you?ll think you hit a tree stump. Mercedes talks very highly of its 4-ETS system and on paper it sounds great but in reality it relies too much on the ESP limiting wheel spin and very little else, making the 4Matic a cumbersome and edgy car to drive in heavy winter conditions.

The xDrive then, in theory, is the crude, simple version but you know what they say about too many cooks. The F10 in all its ?simplicity? is a great winter companion with the underlying sensation being predictable. Regardless of what gets thrown at the driver, you?ll always have the confidence knowing what the car will do: once traction is lost, the xDrive will allow a little bit of time for the driver to correct before intervening and once the systems do kick in, they do with none of the aggression described with the 4Matic. the xDrive goes about its way in a very linear fashion, as if it is on rails. Instead of trying to dictate individual wheels, the xDrive focuses on keeping the nose of the car from under steering and limiting the over steer at the back. Combined with a driving experience that is already very confidence inspiring, I never had any doubts when driving the F10 5-series in tough conditions. It is a lovely example of how to build very well rounded underpinnings for any car.

Conclusions

At the end of the day comparing these two is perhaps even a bit unfair even though they are direct rivals competing over the same customers. I say this because I feel they aren?t really for the same people ? I couldn?t imagine anyone keen on driving buying the E-class and on the other hand the BMW does come short on interior materials. It must also be noted that in the long term the E250CDI is by far the more reliable car out of these two. The F10 generation is plagued by electrical gremlins, especially ones to do with the xDrive system but the ?525d? twin turbo engine has also proven slightly brittle and I would recommend opting for the smaller 520d, which is a remarkable engine for its size. The 250CDI has proven to be fairly bulletproof with very few major issues and it?s the same story with the rest of the W212 E-class. Naturally if your budget allows it, I would suggest going for the 350CDI/530d examples of either as they get rid of many issues and/or drawbacks related to their smaller siblings.
Other things to consider are for instance the ease of use of BMW?s iDrive versus the COMAND unit of MB ? I found there to be very little difference between the two - available equipment levels and dealer/maintenance networks and prices.

The E250CDI is a great choice if you value ease of use, reliability and comfort for everyday use. It is hand on heart a great car. However I can not with good conscience declare it as the winner of this comparison: the F10 525d xDrive does everything either as well or better than its Stuttgart rival. While some may find the cockpit to be cramped and some of the material choices are not as good as they are on Mercs and Audis, the overall package and driveability in all conditions with drop dead gorgeous looks make it the clear winner.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------

Next installment: 2014 Mercedes Benz S350CDI BE L 4Matic

 

[rickhamilton620]

Yup. Except it costs $17,035 now.



2.oh no! it broke again motor is another slap in the face. For that money plus $215, you can get a Hyundai Elantra with a nicer interior, air conditioning, a decent stereo and everything else - Rick just reviewed his rental one upthread. Not looking like a retard for buying a stripper Jetta: Priceless.

Edit: Correction, with current incentives, the Elantra comes with $2000 cash back. Net price for the Elantra is then $1795 cheaper than the Jetta. Why would anyone in their right mind buy a stripper Jetta?

Remember though, he's referring to the wagon: it's still a generation behind the sedan here in the States (for right now anyway) so it retains a interior better than both the Jetta sedan and the Elantra as well as a radio (seriously vw...why???).

I believe it also retains the 2.5L 5-cylinder that, while not necessarily thrilling, seems to do very well reliability wise according to owner forums. Admittedly there could be bias there.

That said, if i was given the choice of a base Jetta sedan with this 2.Slow or an Elantra, i'd likely go Elantra. Not only is it cheaper to buy, but it'll be cheaper to run both in terms of mpg and maintenance. Also, in this cost sensitive segment, the 10 year powertrain warranty and 5 year b2b coverage is a comforting thing. Not to mention Elantra's solid reliability.

Once the trims go higher...the Jetta would likely tempt me if its IRS meant a better ride and the 2.0t proved more willing.

 

[loose_unit]

The BMW i8. Not so much a review, more a first impressions!

When I read the first announcement of the car I thought ?That's cool? and immediately went back to eating cake. Cake is good. After the cars launch I watched a few of the press reviews and figured they were probably accurate when they said the steering was a bit numb and it wasn't very playful. I never really expected to get the opportunity to drive one, so when I got that opportunity, I took it!

I showed up to the meeting point in a 1988 BMW 318i (E30) with worn cams so it won't rev over 5k rpm. It was loaned to me by Beni for a few months (see thread) as I don't have my own car right now and need a car to travel around to look at cars, because yo dawg. It seemed appropriate to bring along the beater as I don't think I would get another opportunity to take a photo with it and a ?150,000+ BMW i8.

After taking some pictures, talked a bit about the car and watched every single person walking past take photos and staring at the i8, I jumped back into the 318i and we headed to Tim's house to drop off the 318, pick up his Z4 2.5si and go for a cruise.

I climbed into the passenger seat, closed the door and we were off in a quiet whir. First stop a place to get some pictures of the i8 with the Z4. It drives around town like any other modern sports car only a bit quieter, the battery charge was fairly low so the engine was periodically turning itself on to keep the car alive. There is noticeably a lot of torque which makes driving effortless around town, if you want to shoot past someone to grab that gap, you can, it just goes!

After a fuel stop for the Z4 we head off on the tour, Dins flicks the car into sport mode and hits the accelerator, it seems quick, but not astonishingly so. Then we got to an empty side road Dins stops to see if we could do a launch control start, but not knowing how to engage it he just turned all the electronic nannys off, held his foot on the brake gave it a bit of gas, then lifted off the brake and nailed it.

?Holy s**t? I say, ?That was insane! It just keeps pulling!? Less than convinced that it is that fast, Dins did another launch and I gave the same reaction. A bit of discussion and Dins seems fairly unconvinced that it is ?that? fast, at this point I asked ?can I have a go??.

We pull over to swap seats and I take the wheel of the most expensive car I have ever driven. I pull out onto road letting the Z4 get a good distance before flipping to sport mode and stamping on the throttle. I almost feel let down at this point, it doesn't feel fast... I look at the heads up display reading somewhere in the region of 150 before lifting off, when suddenly ?Holy s**t? comes from the passenger seat ?it feels so much faster from here? said Dins, I immediately agreed that it didn't feel overly quick from the drivers seat, fast, but not mind-bendingly so.

Onto the autobahn I drive, the laser lights piercing the night like Cupid's arrow pierces the hearts of millions, that wonderful circle white sign with 5 black lines through it appears and off into the night shoots the Z4. I stick the i8 into sport mode, the dash changes to red and I flick the left paddle a few, dropping down the gears listening to the wonderful auto-blip of the turbo three-banger. I feed in the power smoothly. We begin accelerating. I make sure to short shift just before the redline so we get the wonderful but synthetic farting noises modern cars make, and soon we catch and pass the Z4. It all seems so effortless, I feel the cars acceleration stop so I look down and see the speedo stuck at 250kmph, the electronically limited top-speed.

Up ahead I see all lanes full of cars, I have to back off. The road clears up again and I pull up next to the Z4, I wait for Tim to put his foot down, he pulls ahead slightly before I do the same, immediately passing him and heading towards the top speed, again.

I let the Z4 get back into radio range so we can organise our next driver swap, we pull off the autobahn and find a place to stop. I get out of the car and try to process everything. I get handed the keys to the Z4 and Tim jumps into the passenger seat of the i8 and I will now get to drive the Z4. But that's a story for another day.

After driving the i8, then the Z4, I got back into the sub ?1000 318i with it's clattery engine, useless interior lights, terrible headlights, no power steering and nearly devoid of power I realised something. Old cars are better. Their quirks, rattles, special ways of starting and driving them that only you know. It turns the machine into something more than just a tool, something that you care about not just because of monetary value, it becomes a family member and that's what I want in my cars.

 

[PelicanHazard]

After driving the i8, then the Z4, I got back into the sub ?1000 318i with it's clattery engine, useless interior lights, terrible headlights, no power steering and nearly devoid of power I realised something. Old cars are better. Their quirks, rattles, special ways of starting and driving them that only you know. It turns the machine into something more than just a tool, something that you care about not just because of monetary value, it becomes a family member and that's what I want in my cars.

Let me take off your rose-tinted glasses for a second...

Categorically, old cars are shit. It's only through memories and the emotional attachment they cause that we view them positively. Consider the person who buys a car (new or used, doesn't matter) and within a week the engine destroys itself. They have had no time to form a connection with the car, so it is most likely they will discard the scrap heap, thinking only about the inconvenience or the cost but not about the car as a lost family member, and move on. Now consider the same happening to someone who's owned the car for 5 years or longer. Much more likely that they would want to "rescue" or "revive" the car, at least until the logical part of the brain kicks in and cost comes into the equation. It happens to many people, whether they are car enthusiasts or not.

It happened to Leadfoot four years ago when our dad traded in his '99 Camry for an '08. Leadfoot offered to buy the old Camry from him and do the necessary suspension work because he had grown a certain attachment to the car. It wasn't anything special to an outside observer; it was just one of many '99 Camries made, and not exactly a fair example of one given the abuse it suffered. But to us it was the car we had adventures in, partially learned to drive in, had a water pump disintegrate on the way to Ohio, spilled soda in after a funny joke, did winter drifting for the first time, dinged up, sped down, and so on. Looking around the car was like viewing a gallery of "Hey remember that time when...". It was hard to not be sad when we saw it get driven around behind the dealership as the final papers were signed for the new one given the role the car had played in our lives for over a decade. Same thing happened when Leadfoot stopped driving his Cavalier after he got the Focus, and when the Calavier was traded in for my Dart. I experienced it when I gave up my Sentra to my mom. My ex-girlfriend's mom experienced it when her Eagle Summit finally bit the dirt. A friend when her Civic had become too unreliable. Another friend when his Pontiac was pointed out as a money sink. But here's the kicker: ask any of those people which car of theirs, old or new, was better, and they'll all say the new one.

Cry as we might about certain things, new cars are absolutely better than the old ones. Sure, we all prefer older ones for various reasons, but to an average outside observer (critically, one that does not share our biases), the old cars are rusting claptraps that can only trend upwards in failure rates until the cost to keep them on the road makes no logical sense.

You can keep the 318. I'll take the i8 and drive it until the memories pile up enough to add it to my family.

 

[93Flareside]

Bullshit, you mean to tell me a Taurus is a better alternative to a crown victoria?

I'm gluing my rose tinted glasses on! You can't take 'em!

 

[Dr_Grip]

I'd rather keep driving Lucille with her shit fuel economy, ridiculous live axle lolspring rear suspension and overassisted power steering.

 

[Fairlady]

The purchase price difference alone is enough to put me off from ever buying a car brand new. Not having a stranger's butt sweat soaked in the driver's seat is not a convincing enough premium for me.

 

[Cowboy]

I'd rather keep driving Lucille with her shit fuel economy, ridiculous live axle lolspring rear suspension and overassisted power steering.

This man gets it.

If it ain't fucking broken don't fix it.

 

[Spectre]

Pelican: Except for one minor little issue.

New cars are *worse* to drive than their older counterparts in many cases. Three words: "Electromagnetic Power Steering"

The new M3 has been reviewed as being worse than its predecessor as well, and not just because of EPS.

Newer is not always better.

 

[PelicanHazard]

The purchase price difference alone is enough to put me off from ever buying a car brand new. Not having a stranger's butt sweat soaked in the driver's seat is not a convincing enough premium for me.

This isn't quite what I was getting at. My rant was more about the progression of cars, both in terms of design and the fact that they age. Meaning that a previous-generation Honda Civic that can be bought on the used market right now is a vast improvement over a second-generation Civic, given that the second-gen one is likely a rusted broken piece of shit. Even if it were pristine, the newer one trounces it in any category that tends to matter to people (fuel economy, safety, feature set, availability of parts, familiarity of repair shops with it, etc etc). Whether the newer car is purchased new or used doesn't matter.

Are there reasons to prefer older cars? Sure. But the older ones are not, save some niche and often-subjective categories like "connectedness to the road", "better".

 

[Spectre]

This isn't quite what I was getting at. My rant was more about the progression of cars, both in terms of design and the fact that they age. Meaning that a previous-generation Honda Civic that can be bought on the used market right now is a vast improvement over a second-generation Civic, given that the second-gen one is likely a rusted broken piece of shit. Even if it were pristine, the newer one trounces it in any category that tends to matter to people (fuel economy, safety, feature set, availability of parts, familiarity of repair shops with it, etc etc). Whether the newer car is purchased new or used doesn't matter.

Are there reasons to prefer older cars? Sure. But the older ones are not, save some niche and often-subjective categories like "connectedness to the road", "better".

Tell that to the people that bought the 2012 Civic. Which was worse in every measurable way than the car that came before it.

Reviews of the 2012 Civic have been generally lackluster, with many reviewers citing the car's cheap interior materials, along with worsened driving dynamics and insubstantial exterior styling changes from the previous generation, as drawbacks. Consumer Reports went so far as to remove the 2012 Civic from its 'Recommended' list of compact cars, which the vehicle had been on for many years.

According to some reviewers, it was the worst Civic in three model generations. There are other cars where this happens, too. Newer is still not always better - you have but to look at Jaguar's current problems to see how that works. Their current lineup has *worse* parts availability, serviceability, general knowledge distribution, and has no better real world fuel economy than their prior models.

 

[Fairlady]

This isn't quite what I was getting at. My rant was more about the progression of cars, both in terms of design and the fact that they age. Meaning that a previous-generation Honda Civic that can be bought on the used market right now is a vast improvement over a second-generation Civic, given that the second-gen one is likely a rusted broken piece of shit. Even if it were pristine, the newer one trounces it in any category that tends to matter to people (fuel economy, safety, feature set, availability of parts, familiarity of repair shops with it, etc etc). Whether the newer car is purchased new or used doesn't matter.

Are there reasons to prefer older cars? Sure. But the older ones are not, save some niche and often-subjective categories like "connectedness to the road", "better".

Neither was I getting at what you were saying. I couldn't give a rolling doughnut about your or other people's preferences, buying used just makes more sense to me in most ways.

 

[Lastsoul]

Old cars have character. It doesn't matter if it comes from vintage features like carburetors or through everything we've experienced with them. I'd definitely want to get some features from new cars, like NVH levels, keyless go and HID/Xenon lights (in pop up form of course!) But I'd love to keep the hydraulic or unassisted steering, old school engine note and the general feeling of being alive.

 

[rickhamilton620]

Pelican: Except for one minor little issue.

New cars are *worse* to drive than their older counterparts in many cases. Three words: "Electromagnetic Power Steering"

The new M3 has been reviewed as being worse than its predecessor as well, and not just because of EPS.

Newer is not always better.

This. Electric steering is almost universally terrible. Even I notice the difference.